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 Am I Playing Bosses Wrong? 
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Denizen
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Joined: December 3rd, 2015, 11:43 am
Posts: 438
Hello;

So, lately, my friends and I have been playing a lot and the dungeons always seem to be really tough, we fight through, we get loot, we get treasure, have a bunch of close calls.


BUT... THEN THE BOSS SPAWNS.... ANNDDDDDDD ITS DEAD!


By the time we get to the boss its a joke. Rockin Roxxor came out last night, first boss card was unique command, shifted to raging. Now he has 3 star armor in arcade. 3 of our dps guys go and down him in one round. Game over.

So my question is 2 fold:

1. Do star bonuses apply to the dungeon boss as well

2. and if not, do people play it that way to make it harder?


March 29th, 2018, 11:19 am
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Mini-Boss
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Joined: October 29th, 2012, 8:56 pm
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Are you playing fk or 2.0 arcade? In fk this is unfortunately normal bc you can just farm and have optimized heroes and it was some of the feedback I think that was given as part of the SDE:L playtesting.

In 2.0 with the MMC timer this is possible too but harder b/c the heroes can have a more difficult time farming b/c monsters are on a set spawn schedule and monsters execute more commands per Consul turn.

The dungeon bosses do not benefit from MMC bonuses in any mode but if they did the value it provides a challenge or too much is based on your heroes. Like moving Roxor from 3 ARM to 4 ARM will not make an appreciable difference if your heroes are consistently rolling 9+ on attack.

FK at least does not have Critical Success, since that's what usually make my Arcade 2.0 fights really short (lots of lucky Crits!).

So if you're on FK Arcade, I expect you'll want to port in some Classic or Arcade 2.0 rules to make the fight boss worthy.

===========================================================

In Classic 2.0 you get:
1) Relics! It's treasure for your boss and the preview includes relics for Classic to use with all bosses, Starfire, and all the SDE:L bosses so that can give you an idea of what sort of bonuses SPM thinks are appropriate. It's supposed to provide an incentive for the Consul to protect/Heroes to defeat spawn points. For your purposes, I'm sure all the spawnpoints are dead already so you could just decide based on the hero's powerlevel/plot/campaign wise what relics the boss should get. You can even be sneaky and add a tile with a spawn point/mobs when the boss spawns and be like, little did you know, there was a spawn point and monsters to give the boss a relic! or maybe they have to defeat the spawn point to remove the relics from the boss (this is more Arcade Plot type stuff).

2) Timeout. I really miss these in Arcade 2.0, but they're basically replaced by Boss Challenges. I like that it usually prevents the heroes from trivializing the boss and killing it in a hero activation. It was also meant to give the heroes a breather by letting one of them heal up at the cost of loot.

3) Immunity to Critical Success after Timeout! I think this rule is needed in Arcade 2.0, imo, and doesn't matter if you're playing FK. It doesn't change the power level really, but just extends the boss fight.

In Arcade 2.0 you get:
1) Plot. Generally give the dungeon boss a benefit or the heroes a penalty if not resolved. They are not balanced AT ALL (which is part of the fun). They basically delay the heroes by requiring additional actions to accomplish (usually) non-combat based objectives or punish them in some way (lose equipped loot, get wounded, get status effects, etc.).

2) Challenges - these can provide temporary buffs per turn that can change the hero's strategy for that turn or make drastic changes. This might be better than just a permanent MMC bonus b/c if it's too much, it's temporary.

3) Boss Challenges - same as 2), but oriented around the boss. Can emulate timeout with spawning mobs, moving the boss to a different tile exit, respawn the mini boss, debuff the heroes, etc. Most of my playthroughs defeat the boss in ~2-4 boss challenges, but I tend to build glass cannon and let the Consul 'eat' my princess coins while I blast away at the boss. A tanky party would obviously have the different approach of simply chipping away at the boss.

4) Heal 3 wounds per spawn point - same as maybe the idea in Classic 1) - reveal a hidden, defended spawn point that heals the boss until they defeat it. For a campaign game, houseruling a twist like this can go over well with the right group (aka my wife is NOT the right group for this plot twist).
===========================================

Note there isn't anything specific in any mode to increase the challenge a dungeon boss provides against a 5-6 hero party. I would've preferred a different template with more wounds and maybe defense to combat the additional hero activation, but a lot depends on how the game plays leading up to the boss fight.

In 2.0 the heroes get 3 hero activations per turn and dungeon bosses are still only balanced around 2 hero activations. for 5-6 heroes, the theory is you will theoretically have to spread loot across more heroes and there will theoretically be more monsters spawning in both classic and Arcade so if the game plays with the idea that you must either summon the dungeon boss early to avoid more spawns or the dungeon boss spawns while there are still monsters out, then the additional challenge of the dungeon boss is reliant on it being more difficult to defeat the regular monsters in play. In Classic and Arcade 2.0 you go form 12 turns to 16 turns, add 1 mini boss and add 1 spawn point. Arcade has built in difficulty increase /w Plots while Classic just gives the consul more skulls, but I'm not sure if 2 skulls per turn is equivalent to a third hero activation every turn. It has really depended on the good/bad luck of the dice in my games (and we tend to have good luck!)


March 29th, 2018, 1:34 pm
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Denizen
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Joined: December 3rd, 2015, 11:43 am
Posts: 438
sleepy_laughter wrote:
Are you playing fk or 2.0 arcade? In fk this is unfortunately normal bc you can just farm and have optimized heroes and it was some of the feedback I think that was given as part of the SDE:L playtesting.

In 2.0 with the MMC timer this is possible too but harder b/c the heroes can have a more difficult time farming b/c monsters are on a set spawn schedule and monsters execute more commands per Consul turn.

The dungeon bosses do not benefit from MMC bonuses in any mode but if they did the value it provides a challenge or too much is based on your heroes. Like moving Roxor from 3 ARM to 4 ARM will not make an appreciable difference if your heroes are consistently rolling 9+ on attack.

FK at least does not have Critical Success, since that's what usually make my Arcade 2.0 fights really short (lots of lucky Crits!).

So if you're on FK Arcade, I expect you'll want to port in some Classic or Arcade 2.0 rules to make the fight boss worthy.

===========================================================

In Classic 2.0 you get:
1) Relics! It's treasure for your boss and the preview includes relics for Classic to use with all bosses, Starfire, and all the SDE:L bosses so that can give you an idea of what sort of bonuses SPM thinks are appropriate. It's supposed to provide an incentive for the Consul to protect/Heroes to defeat spawn points. For your purposes, I'm sure all the spawnpoints are dead already so you could just decide based on the hero's powerlevel/plot/campaign wise what relics the boss should get. You can even be sneaky and add a tile with a spawn point/mobs when the boss spawns and be like, little did you know, there was a spawn point and monsters to give the boss a relic! or maybe they have to defeat the spawn point to remove the relics from the boss (this is more Arcade Plot type stuff).

2) Timeout. I really miss these in Arcade 2.0, but they're basically replaced by Boss Challenges. I like that it usually prevents the heroes from trivializing the boss and killing it in a hero activation. It was also meant to give the heroes a breather by letting one of them heal up at the cost of loot.

3) Immunity to Critical Success after Timeout! I think this rule is needed in Arcade 2.0, imo, and doesn't matter if you're playing FK. It doesn't change the power level really, but just extends the boss fight.

In Arcade 2.0 you get:
1) Plot. Generally give the dungeon boss a benefit or the heroes a penalty if not resolved. They are not balanced AT ALL (which is part of the fun). They basically delay the heroes by requiring additional actions to accomplish (usually) non-combat based objectives or punish them in some way (lose equipped loot, get wounded, get status effects, etc.).

2) Challenges - these can provide temporary buffs per turn that can change the hero's strategy for that turn or make drastic changes. This might be better than just a permanent MMC bonus b/c if it's too much, it's temporary.

3) Boss Challenges - same as 2), but oriented around the boss. Can emulate timeout with spawning mobs, moving the boss to a different tile exit, respawn the mini boss, debuff the heroes, etc. Most of my playthroughs defeat the boss in ~2-4 boss challenges, but I tend to build glass cannon and let the Consul 'eat' my princess coins while I blast away at the boss. A tanky party would obviously have the different approach of simply chipping away at the boss.

4) Heal 3 wounds per spawn point - same as maybe the idea in Classic 1) - reveal a hidden, defended spawn point that heals the boss until they defeat it. For a campaign game, houseruling a twist like this can go over well with the right group (aka my wife is NOT the right group for this plot twist).
===========================================

Note there isn't anything specific in any mode to increase the challenge a dungeon boss provides against a 5-6 hero party. I would've preferred a different template with more wounds and maybe defense to combat the additional hero activation, but a lot depends on how the game plays leading up to the boss fight.

In 2.0 the heroes get 3 hero activations per turn and dungeon bosses are still only balanced around 2 hero activations. for 5-6 heroes, the theory is you will theoretically have to spread loot across more heroes and there will theoretically be more monsters spawning in both classic and Arcade so if the game plays with the idea that you must either summon the dungeon boss early to avoid more spawns or the dungeon boss spawns while there are still monsters out, then the additional challenge of the dungeon boss is reliant on it being more difficult to defeat the regular monsters in play. In Classic and Arcade 2.0 you go form 12 turns to 16 turns, add 1 mini boss and add 1 spawn point. Arcade has built in difficulty increase /w Plots while Classic just gives the consul more skulls, but I'm not sure if 2 skulls per turn is equivalent to a third hero activation every turn. It has really depended on the good/bad luck of the dice in my games (and we tend to have good luck!)



Yeah, doing 2.0 and when I was beta testing, We all reported that the dungeon bosses seemed underwhelming. Didn't know if there was a change I missed, because at arm 3 ragin roxor is a sitting duck for any decent damage equipped model. Crits galore. and just brutal for him.


March 29th, 2018, 3:06 pm
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Mini-Boss
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Joined: October 29th, 2012, 8:56 pm
Posts: 501
Well, remember Roxor Fire mode at 3 ARM (and poor Goro at 3 ARM) existed during a time when there was no Critical Success.

Just because the existing Arcade cards are largely usable in 2.0, they are definitely not balanced, especially heroes and monsters that relied on inflicting status effects.

At least my experience has been that most of the FK dungeon bosses tend to be higher on offense compared to the new Starfire 2.0, but also potentially weaker on defense due to the inclusion of Critical Success.

The new Dungeon bosses will have focus on creeps, to, of course, make them cooler, but also to extend their boss fight without a Classic Timeout.

The easiest 'no frills' approach is to house rule they gain immunity to critical success at half health like Classic, but it just extends the inevitable maybe one or two activations until those DPS heroes get to go again unless they actually pose a threat to the heroes during the boss activation.


March 29th, 2018, 3:25 pm
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Denizen
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Joined: December 3rd, 2015, 11:43 am
Posts: 438
sleepy_laughter wrote:
Well, remember Roxor Fire mode at 3 ARM (and poor Goro at 3 ARM) existed during a time when there was no Critical Success.

Just because the existing Arcade cards are largely usable in 2.0, they are definitely not balanced, especially heroes and monsters that relied on inflicting status effects.

At least my experience has been that most of the FK dungeon bosses tend to be higher on offense compared to the new Starfire 2.0, but also potentially weaker on defense due to the inclusion of Critical Success.

The new Dungeon bosses will have focus on creeps, to, of course, make them cooler, but also to extend their boss fight without a Classic Timeout.

The easiest 'no frills' approach is to house rule they gain immunity to critical success at half health like Classic, but it just extends the inevitable maybe one or two activations until those DPS heroes get to go again unless they actually pose a threat to the heroes during the boss activation.


yeah and you can now have more than 1 treasure on a character too


March 29th, 2018, 5:02 pm
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Mini-Boss
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Joined: October 29th, 2012, 8:56 pm
Posts: 501
Ah, yes, the > 1 treasure per hero i forgot, but hasn't been a big issue in my playthroughs b/c you need the RNG to even get useful treasure in the first place. If all your treasure is ARM gear (as has happened to me), then you're mostly hoping for +1R and +1W Loot.

Also note that some of the Loot got upgraded, especially with status effects b/c they wear off, but they can still be devastating to a non-immune dungeon boss (which Roxor isn't part of).

I haven't figured out what a good balance should be for how many activations a boss should survive at.

My matches have largely been dungeon boss spawns at maybe MMC 6-8 if the heroes are doing well and then lasts 2-4 activations for a 3-4 hero party.

If the heroes are struggling, then MMC 10-11 hits and then the boss tends to last still 2-4 activations.

Really poor hero luck/tough boss challenges mean boss can last > 5 activations...it can feel very tough really depending on how well equipped your heroes are and if they are even down princess coins.

Usually I see my heroes lose princess coins when the Mini boss spawns (attacks b/f heroes can retaliate!) and Epic Fight (if you don't have enough defense or just roll like crap). if you have a ton of princess coins you generally will always win so I figure if you're down to 1 or 2 when dungeon boss spawns, that's when it can become a nailbiter b/c then luck matters quite a bit.

I think the current issue is that you select the difficulty at the start of the match, but you don't know if the heroes will snowball or not until during the match and then it depends whether it feels 'bad' to re-up the difficulty and undo the hero's progression during the match b/c it can feel punishing (feedback from my wife).

The base difficulty I definitely think is good for beginners/learning the game, but if you're doing a campaign and playing with folks who know how to optimize/strategize, then it's not enough to give a challenge.

I think at least giving the boss Sturdy or equivalent can help to boot b/c it can show that the Dungeon bosses have heard of the hero's progress and have appropriately reinforced their defenses in anticipation of their coming. I think Tetsudo Tower already has Sturdy so it's not absurd and there are boss challenges that do this, too.


March 29th, 2018, 5:31 pm
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Minion
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Does Arcade have critical hits? I thought that was just Explore.


March 30th, 2018, 4:17 pm
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Mini-Boss
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Yes, SDE Arcade 2.0 has Critical Success for Heroes. So they do not suffer Critical Success from monsters as no dice are rolled. This is another reason why defense may not be as valued as highly in Arcade.

P17 Hero Activation 10-Critical Success
CRITICAL SUCCESS
During a red offensive action, if the offense roll is five or
more stars and more than double the monster’s ARM,
the Hero has achieved a critical success. The action
inflicts one extra wound in addition to any it would
normally cause. Spawning points do not suffer additional
wounds due to critical success.

vs. SDE Classic 2.0
p17 Activation 10-Critical Success
CRITICAL SUCCESS
During a red offensive action, if the offense roll is five or
more stars and more than double the result of the defense
roll, the model has achieved a critical success. The action
inflicts one extra wound in addition to any it would
normally cause. Spawning points do not suffer additional
wounds due to critical success.


March 30th, 2018, 4:59 pm
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