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 Legends Update Thread 
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Minion
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ND_Justin wrote:
I think there is simply less to say about those projects as they are completed and we're waiting for things to get here. But again, not my area.


Thanks for the prompt response. For the most part Rail Raiders appears complete with everyone waiting for the missing items and non-US residents to receive the game. Way of the Fighter game is complete, but all the miniatures for that game is not complete. The last update, they are going through sculpt editing and a change in who will manufacture some of the miniatures.


October 17th, 2017, 7:41 pm
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Minion
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akai wrote:
ND_Justin wrote:
I think there is simply less to say about those projects as they are completed and we're waiting for things to get here. But again, not my area.


Thanks for the prompt response. For the most part Rail Raiders appears complete with everyone waiting for the missing items and non-US residents to receive the game. Way of the Fighter game is complete, but all the miniatures for that game is not complete. The last update, they are going through sculpt editing and a change in who will manufacture some of the miniatures.


And this is why my blood is boiling about RRI. They decided to delay a kickstarter that is late by over a year, so they could ship it with somthing that isn't close to being finished potentially. This combined with the fact that they gave their word on multiple occasions that they would not sell retail copies of RRI until ALL backers were fulfilled, yet multiple people on the KS page have said they have seen retail copies and are disgruntled about not receiving theirs yet. So either ND don't count None US citizans as people OR they are a bunch of liars with zero crediblity. No matter how you put it they really :SODA: the bed with this and have the nerve to start an entirely fresh Kickstarter with multiple unfinished ones currently active. THey have zero respect for anybody whos given them bussines over the years, absolutely none. This is bad enough but its not even the entire story on "why backing a ND kickstarter was/is a bad idea".

I just want what I paid for and to be done with this.

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October 17th, 2017, 7:59 pm
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Mini-Boss
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Quote:
and have the nerve to start an entirely fresh Kickstarter with multiple unfinished ones currently active.

The warning signs have been left in this last campaign of them, but there is no way to stop free will of people supporting the project, even aware of the problems and frustrations backers will face.

Fact: since the company is moving to increase the list of games and miniatures in its portfolio, of course there will not be all the attention and workforce given to Super Dungeon as in the principle that it was only two or three games for the company to worry about. This is the same as when you try to download dozens of files at the same time. The process will eventually come to a conclusion, but it will take longer to show some result.

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October 18th, 2017, 12:44 pm
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Nephastus wrote:
Fact: since the company is moving to increase the list of games and miniatures in its portfolio, of course there will not be all the attention and workforce given to Super Dungeon as in the principle that it was only two or three games for the company to worry about. This is the same as when you try to download dozens of files at the same time. The process will eventually come to a conclusion, but it will take longer to show some result.


You're referring to the concept of bandwidth, as a technical term and as a business capacity term.

I tend to agree with a lot of your points, especially in the Kickstarter comments, but I'd like to suggest a friendly counterpoint in this case. Again, nothing personal, and not intended as any kind of insult or attack (I shouldn't have to say that before disagreeing with people here, but the history here shows otherwise).

The concept of bandwidth, particularly as it relates to companies handling multiple Kickstarter projects at once is both a valid concern, and a severely overblown one. It's valid because yes, creators have over promised between multiple campaigns, causing one project to negatively impact the timeline of another. More often than not though, that isn't the case -and there's an easy way to tell.

First off, how far along are different projects, and what kind of work is left to be done on them? It's easy to think of making a game as one process, making a game -but it's really not accurate in this context. Making a game is a LOT of different processes, done by different people who specialize in each. Unless you're the creator of, say, Gloomhaven, you aren't handling every aspect of making a decent strategic miniatures game as one, or probably even two people. You've got marketing people, who would work on Kickstarter campaigns, advertising, etc. You've got artists, layout and content specialists, core game designers... These aren't interchangeable specialties, and a successful company can't expect to hire them only on an as-needed freelance basis if they want to get consistent quality content.

If the sculpts are done, and the artists have finished their portion, and the marketing people have been long done, but your manufacturer specialists are coordinating physical production timelines... Putting the inactive people who do the first pieces of work on a project onto something new ISN'T going to adversely effect the project they've already finished(as their role is concerned).

If you think of it as an assembly line, where people work like mad to complete phase one, then another group handles phase two, then another three and so on... It doesn't make sense to have your phase one specialists sit around while phase five is being handled. You put them on phase one of the next project, while the later teams finish up the current one. Everyone specializes, they produce higher quality this way, it's standard practice in many industries. And NOT doing business that way is more harmful, because it hurts the companies that you want to get a good product from.


October 19th, 2017, 10:23 pm
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TheHandsomeDan wrote:
If the sculpts are done, and the artists have finished their portion, and the marketing people have been long done, but your manufacturer specialists are coordinating physical production timelines... Putting the inactive people who do the first pieces of work on a project onto something new ISN'T going to adversely effect the project they've already finished(as their role is concerned).

I totally agree with you. I think it's also important to stress that any reasonable company will keep their employees occupied and noone should expect anything else. Let's say sculpting for Legends took 3 months (taking this number from the air, but it's not the point). If Legends is already taking 2+ years, why should SPM's sculptors be on downtime for over 21 months? :P It's only reasonable thing to work on a new product (be it another KS or retail product, which is dictaded by company's strategy). And let's keep in mind they can have multiple teams of completely different people working on different projects, which increases their development capacity.

Also I believe the main reason Legends are delayed is rules rewritting and product restructuring/scope change. There was some terrible miscommunication along that made some people annoyed or even mad. Others don't care about rules about and just want minis. It's okay, but I think it's important to admit that rules rewritting made by Justin and Deke don't delay other projects and not accuse SPM when they don't deserve it (at least not fot this reason).


October 20th, 2017, 7:02 am
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what has been said is delays are mostly due to rewrites (and no, you can't really expect all the mini's to have been manufactured and sitting in a bit storage locker until everything else is ready) and now, wave 1 is mostly awaiting manufacture (which a slot was locked for November), so basically yes.. the main reason for delay is rules. Rule rewriting was mostly asked for by the backers and supporters.

to pretty much repeat what ND have said about the 'don't care about rules, just want figures' people, that was NOT a pledge level. It would be like if I ordered a tent from a shop but had to wait for the pegs which were out of stock, but said "I don't care about the pegs". It's part of the item, they don't sell it without it (okay, that's not a great simile but it'll do)..

any idea if a transcription of this last video feed has been done yet?


October 20th, 2017, 8:32 am
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Make sense... but the manufacturer specialists could not handle so many incoming projects at same time without increase delays. While the previous steps made by other team specialists (artwork, game design...) have efficiency and celerity on their jobs but the manufacturer specialists don't, we back to the issue of accumulated files to download at once. One reason justify to accumulate is the chase for save money with big bundles of different projects combined to manufacture and shipment discounts.

Otherwise the company wouldn't need used on the timeline checkpoints of Legends the intersection of other projects' timelines.

Case like WoTF with declarations alike "we don't know when backers will receive their resin miniatures from this game", IMO is time to hold a second, sit on the desk to improve project planning and management.

Who is in charge may do a plethora of documentation to normalizacion of projects. This way the company gain a cake recipe with all steps to do (aka. "rules book on how to run a business"). A vast documentation of learned lessons to keep the memory is welcome to company's health as well.

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October 20th, 2017, 1:19 pm
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I know they don't just use one Manufacturer, so they don't have as many 'incoming projects' from the same group. Not to mention, there are TONS of groups around the world that probably use various (and sometimes the same) manufacturers.


October 20th, 2017, 4:10 pm
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Rainthezangoose wrote:
This combined with the fact that they gave their word on multiple occasions that they would not sell retail copies of RRI until ALL backers were fulfilled, yet multiple people on the KS page have said they have seen retail copies and are disgruntled about not receiving theirs yet. So either ND don't count None US citizans as people OR they are a bunch of liars with zero crediblity.
Just to clarify, the policy has always been to not release Kickstarter items to retail until backers in that area of the world have received their items.

So, in a previous Kickstarter, the Asian backers received their pledges before everyone else. Once delivery to the Asian backers was complete, Ninja Division started selling those items at retail in the Asian market. They did not wait until every backer around the world received their copies to start selling retail copies in Asia.

Even when all the pledge orders leave China at the same time, they have different distances to travel and are going to arrive at the hubs at different times. There is no way to control every major area of the world getting all the pledges at the same time. It also doesn't make sense to delay releasing the item to retail in one area of the world because another area of the world is still waiting on their pledges.

This was not always communicated completely. I am sorry for my part of that unclear communication, while I was a Ninja.


October 22nd, 2017, 12:13 am
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ND_nekodachi wrote:
Rainthezangoose wrote:
This combined with the fact that they gave their word on multiple occasions that they would not sell retail copies of RRI until ALL backers were fulfilled, yet multiple people on the KS page have said they have seen retail copies and are disgruntled about not receiving theirs yet. So either ND don't count None US citizans as people OR they are a bunch of liars with zero crediblity.
Just to clarify, the policy has always been to not release Kickstarter items to retail until backers in that area of the world have received their items.

So, in a previous Kickstarter, the Asian backers received their pledges before everyone else. Once delivery to the Asian backers was complete, Ninja Division started selling those items at retail in the Asian market. They did not wait until every backer around the world received their copies to start selling retail copies in Asia.

Even when all the pledge orders leave China at the same time, they have different distances to travel and are going to arrive at the hubs at different times. There is no way to control every major area of the world getting all the pledges at the same time. It also doesn't make sense to delay releasing the item to retail in one area of the world because another area of the world is still waiting on their pledges.

This was not always communicated completely. I am sorry for my part of that unclear communication, while I was a Ninja.


careful now, injecting reality into outrage will just make things worse! :P


October 22nd, 2017, 1:17 am
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ND_nekodachi wrote:
Rainthezangoose wrote:
This combined with the fact that they gave their word on multiple occasions that they would not sell retail copies of RRI until ALL backers were fulfilled, yet multiple people on the KS page have said they have seen retail copies and are disgruntled about not receiving theirs yet. So either ND don't count None US citizans as people OR they are a bunch of liars with zero crediblity.
Just to clarify, the policy has always been to not release Kickstarter items to retail until backers in that area of the world have received their items.

So, in a previous Kickstarter, the Asian backers received their pledges before everyone else. Once delivery to the Asian backers was complete, Ninja Division started selling those items at retail in the Asian market. They did not wait until every backer around the world received their copies to start selling retail copies in Asia.

Even when all the pledge orders leave China at the same time, they have different distances to travel and are going to arrive at the hubs at different times. There is no way to control every major area of the world getting all the pledges at the same time. It also doesn't make sense to delay releasing the item to retail in one area of the world because another area of the world is still waiting on their pledges.

This was not always communicated completely. I am sorry for my part of that unclear communication, while I was a Ninja.

This comment is irrelevant in regard to this kickstarter though, as new SDE stuff simply doesn't find it's way to the rest of the World anyways. :mrgreen:
But really, I DO wonder why world distribution is lagging so far behind.

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October 22nd, 2017, 9:04 am
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Nephastus wrote:
Make sense... but the manufacturer specialists could not handle so many incoming projects at same time without increase delays. While the previous steps made by other team specialists (artwork, game design...) have efficiency and celerity on their jobs but the manufacturer specialists don't, we back to the issue of accumulated files to download at once. One reason justify to accumulate is the chase for save money with big bundles of different projects combined to manufacture and shipment discounts.

We're not though. Because this statement assumes that the rest of design work on these games is done prior to hitting Kickstarter. Every company has their own pattern for how much they have completed at the launch of a campaign. For a company like SPM it doesn't necessarily make sense to have everything completely done in advance, because a project may be more or less successful than anticipated, or if people are too volatile, it may not succeed at all -then you've invested a lot of pre-work into something that went nowhere. I would gather they do enough to be able to show off the early stuff in campaigns, but still requiring significant time to have "manufacturing ready". The fact that so much time was spent retweaking rules for Legends(aside from the 2.0 work apparently requested by the community[?]), is indicative of this. Manufacturing doesn't start until everything else is done, and frankly doesn't seem to take as long as other steps do in most cases, so it shouldn't be any kind of bottleneck here.

Nephastus wrote:
Otherwise the company wouldn't need used on the timeline checkpoints of Legends the intersection of other projects' timelines.

If you're like me, youre typing this out on a cell phone... Which might account for why this came out a lot less clearly than I think you intended. If you don't mind clarifying, I'm a little curious as to what you meant on this one. I have a couple ideas, but I don't like to jump to conclusions too quickly.

Nephastus wrote:
Case like WoTF with declarations alike "we don't know when backers will receive their resin miniatures from this game", IMO is time to hold a second, sit on the desk to improve project planning and management.

They covered this topic in the first sit down Q&A video. They definitely understand the mistake they made now, and it doesn't sound like they're any kind of likely to repeat it in the future. Doesn't change how upsetting it still is for those affected, not by any means at all, but they've clearly taken note of that outrage. At this point, they've pretty well committed to the decision, so it's unlikely they have a lot of business capacity to reverse that now.

Nephastus wrote:
Who is in charge may do a plethora of documentation to normalizacion of projects. This way the company gain a cake recipe with all steps to do (aka. "rules book on how to run a business"). A vast documentation of learned lessons to keep the memory is welcome to company's health as well.

I like to think they're doing this, I hope they're doing this. I've said before that I work with project management, and this sort of reflection is key even in successful projects. You always have to reflect on what went well, what didn't, what could have been done better -and HOW to make sure it really does go better the next time, whether that's a direct result of one's own work, or an issue of motivating those around you. Looking back to past SDE products and then seeing this, I'm not totally sure that they've taken the importance of reflection so seriously, but again, after recent explosions in the fanbase I think there's a good chance that a more lasting impression has been made. Logically, I think these guys are going to be better to backers moving forward than they have been in the past. Don't expect immediate 180° change on things that have already been decided, because many of those decisions are likely 'locked in' in very financial ways before they're ever announced, but hopefully moving forward, things should be much better.

I'm not trying to "white knight" anyone here by any means, I'm just speaking to observations from their actions historically and recently, and my own experience in project management.


October 23rd, 2017, 12:02 pm
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Fair enough.

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October 23rd, 2017, 12:41 pm
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Pardon me for the late comments. I'm a late backer, so i can't post on the legends page, but what about the alternate kodama and chimera. Wasn't that suposed to be wave 1 as well?


October 26th, 2017, 5:29 am
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I don't think so.. I don't even think they were meant to be physical.. I can't say for sure though.. had a tough week ¬_¬;


October 26th, 2017, 3:24 pm
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October 26th, 2017, 3:55 pm
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ManicMan wrote:
I don't think so.. I don't even think they were meant to be physical.. I can't say for sure though.. had a tough week ¬_¬;


It at least says in the rewards we're supposed to get alternates: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/so ... ts/1896066

But see, there it says they come in the Bitey Box, which i guess I got confused because of this post:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/so ... ts/1810218

In that post it says they'll be added to the 2nd edition box...

To be fair, the crown guard comes with an extra hero and mini boss, so that's a plus :3


October 27th, 2017, 1:15 am
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Denizen
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fair enough. personally, I don't think it matters a great deal

Also, I was pretty much "Oh!" when I noticed that the Crown Guard warband set now had a Hero Card for Ser Elmer and a Mini-boss card for the tracker.. meaning 2 hero/mini-boss warband set instead of the normal 1 hero, 1 mini-boss (or sometimes 2 Heroes, 1 mini-boss). to quote a robotic display "I like it, I like it"


October 27th, 2017, 4:16 pm
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Alternate Forgotten King set cards will come in the Bitey Book, which is wave 2.

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October 27th, 2017, 5:18 pm
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Can I just ask a couple of questions, a couple which are kinda restating:
1) Can we get a look at an NPC token
2) Due to the fact you need to shuffle the deck, Do we get printed new Relic cards for old bosses with the bitey Book? with the best will in the world, its kinda tricky to print out new relic cards, shuffle them and not notice a 'fake' card in the deck.
3) is there someone bored enough to do the translations (or atleast mostly) of the video FaQs?


October 27th, 2017, 6:09 pm
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