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Ninja Corps
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GrauGeist wrote:
Suppose the following:
1. Coven Witch Forced Shifts Angry Bear and/or Von into Miserable Toad
2. friendly model Smooches Toad, causing Forced Shift back to previous form
3. no space for Bear / Werewolf
4. Hero auto-dies?!? :twisted:


You don't even need to involve the shape-shifter heroes (who might revert to their natural form). What happens when the Thundervale Huntress or wolf rider gets toaded and can't fit when she is untoaded?

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September 9th, 2014, 7:28 pm
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Ninja Corps
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GrauGeist wrote:
It's the issue of forced shifting into a too-small space - the model must shift, but cannot, causing a similarly impossible situation.

Do we have the full rules for Sprout and King Sprout? I only saw the described, not actual rules.


Yes and in the case of the sprout reducing it to zero wounds is what causes the forced shift, So by Dr. Despair's logic when he cannot shift he will die (which certainly is a possibility). However, smooching a toad doesn't do anything to the wounds so it will just not transform.


September 9th, 2014, 7:56 pm
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The witches potion (which probably won't be a potion anymore - I'm betting it'll become a One Use Only ability) shouldn't feature Forced Shapeshift at all. That's a specific keyword ability that causes an effect to trigger on death. The witch OUO action need only say that the affected model must shapeshift into the toad form. The toad form need only have the Smooch ability that reads as always - the Toad cannot shift back until someone comes along to give it a kiss.


September 9th, 2014, 8:11 pm
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Consul
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Shapeshift is a voluntary option, that the player "may" exercise. Having adequate space is a precondition for resolution, or the effect "fizzles" and does not occur.


Forced Shift is mandatory, that "must" / "shall" be done. Not having adequate space needs some sort of resolution.

Curse to Toad is a Forced Shift. The player has no choice in the matter - once the potion goes off, the Hero *MUST* shift to Toad form. As Toad is Small, this won't be an issue of space. However, Toad *MUST* shift back upon Kiss - the magic is dispelled. It is a Forced Shift back, and there is no reason the Magic waits for space to appear.

Due to the same effect for both Toad and King Sprout, Forced Shift must be part of the base rules.

My personal preference is that SPM clarify that the owning player may Push 1 any number of adjacent models to "make way" during Forced Shift. If Push cannot create adequate space, the model is destroyed, crushed to death during the transformation.

This leverages existing rules and makes the Forced Shift a Tactical action when large base models are involved. It bypasses the Wounds question as well.

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September 9th, 2014, 9:49 pm
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Mini-Boss
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Oh i just thought of something. according to the new rules it says you can drink one potion on your turn and one potion on the consuls turn.
1. Could you use more than one potion in the consuls turns as long as it was only one per activation. Example: consuls first turn player 1 takes player 2's potion then player 2 goes then on the consuls next activation player 1 takes there own potion as it says only one one the consuls turn.
2. Does that mean unless it is your turn you cannot use a potion unless it is an emergency potion.


September 10th, 2014, 12:08 am
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vreeleader wrote:
Oh i just thought of something. according to the new rules it says you can drink one potion on your turn and one potion on the consuls turn.
1. Could you use more than one potion in the consuls turns as long as it was only one per activation. Example: consuls first turn player 1 takes player 2's potion then player 2 goes then on the consuls next activation player 1 takes there own potion as it says only one one the consuls turn.
2. Does that mean unless it is your turn you cannot use a potion unless it is an emergency potion.


From what I understood of the rules, emergency potions can *only* be drank on the consul's turn. It's my guess that emergency potions will be of the +ARM, HEAL X variety.


September 10th, 2014, 3:18 am
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Denizen
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thepowda wrote:
From what I understood of the rules, emergency potions can *only* be drank on the consul's turn. It's my guess that emergency potions will be of the +ARM, HEAL X variety.


Not true, page 24:
Quote:
A model may drink a single potion of any type, any time during its activation.
A model may drink a single emergency potion at any time during the Consul Turn.


On their activation heroes may use any type, any would include emergency potions.


September 10th, 2014, 12:05 pm
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Mini-Boss
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Number 2 in my last post my question specifically is about the ember mage's white wizard potion with the wave 5 it is sometimes more beneficial to have someone else drink it to cover more party with the effect


September 10th, 2014, 2:59 pm
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Imriel wrote:
thepowda wrote:
From what I understood of the rules, emergency potions can *only* be drank on the consul's turn. It's my guess that emergency potions will be of the +ARM, HEAL X variety.


Not true, page 24:
Quote:
A model may drink a single potion of any type, any time during its activation.
A model may drink a single emergency potion at any time during the Consul Turn.


On their activation heroes may use any type, any would include emergency potions.


My mistake. I hung on a little to much onto the 'emergency potion at any time during the Consul Turn' ... mised the 'potion of any type, any time during its activation'. Thanks for the clarification.


September 11th, 2014, 7:00 pm
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On the Mighty Monster Chart, after the 5th Mini-Boss is destroyed:
Quote:
Consul may choose one status effect for all monsters to inflict when making successful offensive actions.


Wording may be unclear, as it is unclear when the choice is made:
a) one effect per each success?
b) one effect for all successes hereafter

Suppose I have Kobolds Mobbing a Hero under a), above:
1. a Kobold Flinger hits with a Hot Pot, and the Consul chooses to inflict Bane (in addition to Fire from the Hot Pot)
2. a Kobold Gouger hits, and the Consul chooses to inflict Knockdown
Is that correct?

Or is the intent as b):
Quote:
Consul chooses a single status effect to be inflicted after a successful offensive action by any monster.


In the example above, Consul might choose Bane.


Personally, I prefer a), as it opens the door to more interesting tactical play as the Consul.

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September 11th, 2014, 9:02 pm
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thepowda wrote:
It's my guess that emergency potions will be of the +ARM, HEAL X variety.


Speaking of "emergency potions", can we not simply make them a green version of the blue thing?

How about a red plus on clear bottle of white liquid?

This leverages the Red Cross healing icon that is common across most games, and adds some immediate visual distinction that it may be used on the Consul turn.

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September 11th, 2014, 9:08 pm
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Ninja Corps
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GrauGeist wrote:
On the Mighty Monster Chart, after the 5th Mini-Boss is destroyed:
Quote:
Consul may choose one status effect for all monsters to inflict when making successful offensive actions.


Wording may be unclear, as it is unclear when the choice is made:
a) one effect per each success?
b) one effect for all successes hereafter

Suppose I have Kobolds Mobbing a Hero under a), above:
1. a Kobold Flinger hits with a Hot Pot, and the Consul chooses to inflict Bane (in addition to Fire from the Hot Pot)
2. a Kobold Gouger hits, and the Consul chooses to inflict Knockdown
Is that correct?

Or is the intent as b):
Quote:
Consul chooses a single status effect to be inflicted after a successful offensive action by any monster.


In the example above, Consul might choose Bane.


Personally, I prefer a), as it opens the door to more interesting tactical play as the Consul.


It's most probably b with some punctuation missing. At least that's how I would read it semantically, but that might be because German is my first language and in German usually subordinate clauses refer to the last part before them so here "when making successful offensive actions" would refer to "for all monsters to inflict" and not to "Consul may choose one Status Effect".


September 11th, 2014, 9:49 pm
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English is notoriously bad at this sort of thing, which is why we have so many lawyers.

I prefer to read it as a):

when making successful offensive actions
- for all monsters
- - Consul may choose one status effect to inflict

Triggering a choice on each success is obviously the most Consul-friendly rule, and does the best job of scaling, as status effects are almost never wasted (you'd need to hit more times than most Heroes have wounds).


Putting on my game designer hat:
Quote:
Mighty Monster Chart

Mini-Bosses Destroyed / Result
1. Offense Rolls gain +1 star
2. Defense Rolls gain +1 star
3. Offense Rolls gain +1 star
4. Defense Rolls gain +1 star
5. ???


From a playability standpoint, I think there are far better choices that scale better and are more consistent with the rest of the table (+1 star Attack -or- +1 star Defense). All of the other effects grant bonuses to every die roll, and they scale linearly. The 5th Mini-Boss grants a bonus after a particular type of die roll. Status Effects do not stack. Extra Fire doesn't help if you have Fire, or the target is already on Fire. So it occurs perhaps half as often, and only generates one effect.

IMO, this rule needs to drop out in favor of something more consistent with the way the other bonuses are handled. Or the risk/reward payoff ratio needs to be revisited:

A. Offense Rolls gain +1 star
This is the most obvious bonus, following the alternating Offense / Defense pattern to the very end for net total of +3 Offense / +2 Defense. Kinda bland, tho.

B. Offense Rolls gain +1 Red Die
This caps the progression with a Red Die which is slightly better than an extra +1 star. This has a little flavor, in that it breaks up at the very end.

C. Consul may re-roll 1 Die for each Offense or Defense Roll
This is slightly better than gaining an extra Blue Die (as those are the ones most likely to generate nothing useful), but it will slow things a bit, even if Consul is vigilant about not re-rolling existing successes or failures that cannot be converted.

D. All Monsters inflict Massive Damage
Massive Damage scales cleanly, and provides a solid reward against the need to hit. Easy to remember, too, as many Heroes have this ability. As a game accelerator, this is very helpful.

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September 11th, 2014, 10:41 pm
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The keyword being "may choose ONE status effect..."
I have no doubt it's option "b". The consul chooses ONE status effect for all monsters to inflict when making successful attacks.

If it was an optional status effect for each attack they would have used "a" or "any".
There are no indications of a continuous choice.
And think about it... If it was intended to be option "a", wouldn't they have formulated it in another way?

"Each time a monster makes a successful offensive action you may choose a status effect to be inflicted"
That would also be insane! Imagine a monster that could reliably hit with several attacks:

1st attack: I inflict bane
2nd attack: I inflict poison
3rd attack: I inflict fire

All heroes would have all statuses after a single round!!!

(top kek :twisted: )

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September 12th, 2014, 7:50 am
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@G-K - "ONE effect" simply means that the Consul doesn't get to inflict Bane *and* Fire on resolution.

"A" would be synonymous, but "ONE" is preferable as it is a precise number.

"ANY" would clarify that it is a choice that resolves upon A successful offensive roll.

I was actually thinking about Mob, whereby each Kobold applies a different Status Effect. And yes, at that stage of the game, Heroes should be at risk to suffer multiple Status Effects. Realistically, it would be difficult to stack all of them, but it would be a definite bonus point to do so (Hot Pot + Dragon) without inadvertently killing the Hero...


But as above, adding a Status is a terrible ability. Any of the alternatives would be superior.

Massive Damage works far better if we are applying a uniform effect after a successful hit. The nice thing about MD is that it only gets applied a few times before the Hero dies. It's not possible to stack

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September 12th, 2014, 4:27 pm
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In that case:
Quote:
Consul may choose one status effect for all monsters to inflict when making successful offensive actions.

You choose ONE for ALL monsters - not, one for each individual monster. This should be pretty clear then.

I'm not really sure why you think getting a status effect is so bad for the consul. Not even if it's "only" one.
I think it sounds really dangerous. Remember that a lot of monsters already inflict statuses.
Imagine Starfire drakes with fire, knockdown AND poison! You burn and only get one action point! That seems sufficient to me.
Or basically anything with bane if you can't make any diabolical combos.

More dice is good, but a little boring for the final power-up, while I think Massive Damage is grossly over powered.
At a glance I think it sounds pretty balanced as it is, though I'll let actual play-testing be the final judge.

Conclusion: I guess we can agree to disagree?

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September 12th, 2014, 5:48 pm
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I guarantee FAQ will be required for the current wording.

I think gaining a status is better than nothing, but clearly not as good as gaining a star. Gaining +1 star or +1 Red die increases the odds on hitting, but requiring a successful hit is a killer precondition. You get that bonus star (or die) on every single attack, and it makes it more likely to inflict damage in the first place. Scoring that hit is not so easy when Heroes have kitted out with Loot and Treasure after killing 4 or 5 Mini-Bosses. For balance, you need a big effect against the lower odds. After inflicting a status from a hit, the "Mighty" Monster does NOTHING. No bonus whatsoever. It's TERRIBLE.

Monsters with Status Effects gain even less benefit. Especially if you selected a variety of monsters with good effects. For example, Knockdown is generally good, but if you have Drakes, then they get no benefit at all. That's really perverse.

Of all the possible post-hit effects, only Massive Damage is actually fairly-balanced. You don't hit any more often, but you do an extra point of damage when you do. That's completely fair compared with always hitting more often for regular damage and effects.

Playtesting a static status effect vs +1 star vs Massive Damage is very easy to predict. The +1 star will be the most consistent winner because they convert the most attacks into hits, and never waste any damage. Massive Damage will swing between blowout games where they are lucky to hit, and some terrible games where they miss outright. The status effect will drag the game out via de-buffs to limit the Hero effectiveness; except Fire, which will kill very slightly faster, but not as good as the others.

I'm sure we can disagree. I just hope SPM "fixes" the chart to something simple that accelerates the game at the end. Adding a Red (or Green!) die or Massive Damage does that.

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September 12th, 2014, 6:13 pm
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@GrauGeist In my opinion I think you may be underselling the value of the new status ailments. At the very least, the monsters can stay very competitive with the Heroes when it comes to hit probability if they choose Bane as their status of choice. Removing the highest defence dice rolled will have its biggest effect in the endgame - I haven't crunched the numbers as to how dice removal scales, but I would imagine that it would reduce rolls by an average of more than one star when dealing with the kind of stats that many Heroes will reach int' late game. Ditto for Hex - a more defensively minded Consul can enjoy an average survivability increase greater than would be provided by a static +1DEF if all models were able to inflict this status and cut down Hero attack rolls.

However in any case I think you overlook the synergistic potential of the Consul being able to choose the best status ailment for a given setup and game state. If the Consul can keep a few reliable hitters in the late game (e.g. Truffle Pigs, Wyrm Claw Assassins or best of all Frog Knights) then they can punish hard any immunities the Heroes have failed to pick up and make the boss fight very tough indeed. Imagine how much harder Roxor would be to destroy if every Hero was suffering from Ice; or how brutal Nocturne would be if all of the Heroes were taking extra Fire damage; how well Von Drakk would be healing himself up if all the Heroes were suffering Bane; or how much effort it would be to deprive The Forgotten King of his minion support if all the Heroes were suffering Hex. This is leaving aside how status ailments could also be used to synergise with late game spawn point monsters - the Heroes might not make it to the boss if they get locked down by a Poisonous Dragon Clutch or beaten to a pulp by Fire Turtles.

To cut a long argument short, I like the current capstone for the Mighty Monster advancement system (assuming Sodapop clarifies how on earth we are supposed to attain it in an ordinary game!) and with smart Consular choices I could see it being as good as, if not better than, a static dice bonus.


September 12th, 2014, 10:22 pm
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If the Status Effect were an automatic effect across all Heroes, I would agree; however, the problem is that you need to hit first.

If you can hit without Bane (Cursed), you can hit with Bane, and if can survive to fight without Hex (Dizzy), you will survive without it. Both of these are "win more" status.

The only way Status Effect becomes viable is if you choose a different one each time you hit, but both Gotz and GK believe that's not the intent.

Roxor & Nocture would be tougher if the Heroes suffered Ice or Fire, but first you need to get Ice or Fire on the Hero.

Take away the Hit requirement, and I'd agree. But as it currently sits, it's just not as good as a die bonus.

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September 13th, 2014, 4:41 am
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I agree with dr. Despair the hitting isn't a problem even in late game you have the minions normal attack plus 2 stars is very effective the heroes only have 4 slots to equip they have to choose offensive to defense. If they choose tank route they will be extremely hard to hit but there attack will be lacking and with minions having another 2 solid defense they should have a hard time hitting regular minions also. Point being if they have a tank kill the cannon if they are all tanks enough attacks will eventually get through.


September 13th, 2014, 5:05 pm
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