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Mini-Boss
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Joined: November 29th, 2013, 7:12 am
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Sorry i have poor punctuation skills, and I am lazy.
As for vigor and bandages they are essentially the same rule doing the same thing except bandage is will vs wounds and vigor is armor vs status effects. Before the erreta magic was up to range x and missile was up to range x but could not use it against an adjacent target. They changed it to be the same since it was essentially the same rule just different stats.


September 8th, 2014, 4:50 pm
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Ninja Corps
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I never said use proper punctuation, just any ;)

As for Vigor and Bandage being the same: I disagree. As I see it, with Bandage you tend to someones wounds (which may be your own). Vigor on the other hand means you pull yourself together and shake off the effects of a Status Effect (hard to do to someone else). So it makes sense, that they are handled differently.


September 8th, 2014, 4:56 pm
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Mini-Boss
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It will not help the consul much. It will help the heroes a lot against enemies heavy on status effects i know they want to make status effects more meaningful, but it seems silly to not be able to help an adjacent model.


September 8th, 2014, 5:04 pm
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Consul
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Goblin-King wrote:
I can't believe they removed 2-hero games!


Seconded. 2-Hero should have stayed as an option, if only to cover the full set of mechanics of activations, Spawns, Mini-boss (1) & Boss.

It's fast and you can scale up from there.

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September 8th, 2014, 5:24 pm
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Consul
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Dr. Despair wrote:
2 Hero games were always a little heterodox because they used a miniboss instead of a full boss as their final encounter.

So supporting 2 Hero games would mean in effect adding a very short game length into the mix, which isn't necessary.

In current SDE I've always felt that the options for a 2 Hero party with no glaring weaknesses are pretty limited, and that's in a ruleset that doesn't clearly prescribe a model selection order.


There is no reason a 2-Hero game cannot have a Boss. :twisted:

SPM's Relic Knights defines 4 game sizes. I play games of 40k at 400, 500, 750, 1000, 1250, 1500, 1750, 1850, 2000 and 2500 pts (10 sizes total, excluding Kill Team and Apocalypse).

2 Hero games are for learning the mechanics, not balance.

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September 8th, 2014, 5:29 pm
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Consul
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@Gotz:

vreeleader wrote:
I love the new rules

i dislike vigor, though if you could target allies adjacent to you i would be fine with it

i don't understand why you cannot attempt to relieve a status effect of an ally like bandage.

That is kinda like what they did with missile x and magic x in the first rule set, then changed it in the erreta to be the same except different stats as for minions being able to use it.

most could not do it with how they are currently:
- kolbolds could almost never do it, unless the ironscale was buffing (even then they would suck at it, and couldn't remove more than two status effects);
- drakes could not without help from ironscale;
- turtles don't care with turtle power and thick shell;
- the blaze beetle doesn't care with burrow;
- the rest of fire flow couldn't without ironscale;
- all undead couldn't;
- the necromancer could;
- the witches can, but would be bad at it; and
- the spider could.

so ... i don't see why you couldn't use it on allies, as well as your self


Ist besser, ja? :lol:

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September 8th, 2014, 5:35 pm
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Mini-Boss
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ja viel besser. danke.


September 8th, 2014, 6:13 pm
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Ninja Corps
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GrauGeist wrote:
@Gotz:

vreeleader wrote:
I love the new rules

i dislike vigor, though if you could target allies adjacent to you i would be fine with it

i don't understand why you cannot attempt to relieve a status effect of an ally like bandage.

That is kinda like what they did with missile x and magic x in the first rule set, then changed it in the erreta to be the same except different stats as for minions being able to use it.

most could not do it with how they are currently:
- kolbolds could almost never do it, unless the ironscale was buffing (even then they would suck at it, and couldn't remove more than two status effects);
- drakes could not without help from ironscale;
- turtles don't care with turtle power and thick shell;
- the blaze beetle doesn't care with burrow;
- the rest of fire flow couldn't without ironscale;
- all undead couldn't;
- the necromancer could;
- the witches can, but would be bad at it; and
- the spider could.

so ... i don't see why you couldn't use it on allies, as well as your self


Ist besser, ja? :lol:


Much :D

But I still don't understand what the second part of the post with all the minions is about...


September 8th, 2014, 6:15 pm
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Mini-Boss
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The pdf file says monsters have access to the run and vigor basic support actions. So my point is it doesn't help the monsters that much to be able to take away status effects from their buddies next to them.


September 8th, 2014, 6:39 pm
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Ninja Corps
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vreeleader wrote:
The pdf file says monsters have access to the run and vigor basic support actions. So my point is it doesn't help the monsters that much to be able to take away status effects from their buddies next to them.


Ah, OK now I understand your point. I'm afraid I disagree again. It would be pretty big, especially for monsters.

Under new rules, if a single wound monster is on fire it can basically stay there indefinitely. As long as it doesn't get activated it won't die and the heroes can basically ignore it unless it blocks their path. Being able to remove that effect would bring said monster back into play.

Or a Monster that normally has 2 or more action points suffers from poison. If it can only use vigor itself it will be limited in what it can do this activation. If the consul can remove the poison by activating an unimportant minion, said Monster could potentially use a powerful multi action point attack that it could not have used during this activation. That's also a pretty big advantage imho.


September 8th, 2014, 6:51 pm
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Mini-Boss
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To each their own opinion. I don't think it's that big a deal since monsters have the chance to remove status effects when they do damage and roll hearts, as well as spawning heals/removes all status effects from the models on the corresponding spawn point anyway.


September 8th, 2014, 8:11 pm
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Denizen
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I love the fact that spm have released the rules.

What are people's thoughts on Shapeshift?
It seems as tho you choose which form during the upkeep phase and this is a free action. My understanding is that upkeep happens before you activate (move/ spend actions points). Once you have activated (moved) a model you can't go back to the upkeep phase for him to be able to transform.
If I've read this right, you could potentially block a model from shape shifting into its large base form by crowding him with enemy models (as Shapeshift says if you don't have room you can't transform) just before he activates each turn.

Also, what happens to a model with forced Shapeshift like sprout?
If he suffers his last wound with insufficient free squares to accommodate the larger base size for king sprout what happens?
Will he be removed from play? Or will models be pushed back?

What are your thoughts?
Think further clarification would be good in the rules doc.


September 9th, 2014, 2:10 pm
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Mini-Boss
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Im sure forced shapeshift will have some special rules like making it take an additional damage and moving to a spot where it could shapeshift. If not that would make an easy way to kill the sprout trap it then do the two damage before it transforms. I luke how it's changed hated spending an action to change, but making it at very least some characters forced to be in one form or another for the entire "round" will make it far more difficult decision.


September 9th, 2014, 4:10 pm
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Mini-Boss
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I think the new shapeshift rules are a great improvement. They encourage players to think about what form would be most useful for the round and to switch appropriately, rather than stick with one form for round after round because it's not worth the action to switch up. I'd imagine that if a model with forced shapeshift that cannot change form will die - forced shapeshift is a substitutionary effect, and if it cannot trigger then the ordinary effect will proceed as normal.


September 9th, 2014, 4:23 pm
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Consul
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Dr. Despair wrote:
I'd imagine that if a model with forced shapeshift that cannot change form will die - forced shapeshift is a substitutionary effect, and if it cannot trigger then the ordinary effect will proceed as normal.


Can you re-phrase that? It makes no sense.

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September 9th, 2014, 4:27 pm
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Mini-Boss
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GrauGeist wrote:
Dr. Despair wrote:
I'd imagine that if a model with forced shapeshift that cannot change form will die - forced shapeshift is a substitutionary effect, and if it cannot trigger then the ordinary effect will proceed as normal.


Can you re-phrase that? It makes no sense.


Dear crikey, the grammar in that was appalling. My apologies. Also apologies for the obtuse terminology imported from a certain popular magical card game.

My point is that Forced Shapeshift is an effect which replaces an ordinary game event - instead of a model being destroyed as soon as it takes its final wound, the ability 'Forced Shapeshift' triggers and changes the model into another form (with more wounds). This is predicated on the model being able to shapeshift successfully. If it cannot (because there is no space for its larger form), it seems to me that either:
1. The ability cannot trigger and the model will die as normal - the effect is unable to 'substitute' for the model's death because its trigger conditions (one of which is space) cannot be met, or;
2. The ability triggers but fails (because having enough space is not a condition of the ability triggering but is a condition for the ability resolving successfully). The model then dies automatically after this failed resolution for having 0 wounds.

Either way I think a Sprout that cannot shapeshift will die after taking its second wound.


September 9th, 2014, 5:34 pm
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Consul
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Thank you. I understand it much better, and hope SPM will clarify how they wish things to be handled in game.

I assume that the clarification will be tied to Forced Shift, just as there will be clarification for Fixed Form

Given that Witches will Forced Shift Heroes into Toads, this probably belongs in the base rules.

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September 9th, 2014, 5:47 pm
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Consul
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Suppose the following:
1. Coven Witch Forced Shifts Angry Bear and/or Von into Miserable Toad
2. friendly model Smooches Toad, causing Forced Shift back to previous form
3. no space for Bear / Werewolf
4. Hero auto-dies?!? :twisted:

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September 9th, 2014, 5:55 pm
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Ninja Corps
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GrauGeist wrote:
Suppose the following:
1. Coven Witch Forced Shifts Angry Bear and/or Von into Miserable Toad
2. friendly model Smooches Toad, causing Forced Shift back to previous form
3. no space for Bear / Werewolf
4. Hero auto-dies?!? :twisted:


Nope, totally different situation the smooch does not deplete the model of wounds. The sprout is forced to shift because it has Ben reduced to zero wounds.


September 9th, 2014, 6:23 pm
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Consul
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It's the issue of forced shifting into a too-small space - the model must shift, but cannot, causing a similarly impossible situation.

Do we have the full rules for Sprout and King Sprout? I only saw the described, not actual rules.

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September 9th, 2014, 7:04 pm
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