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 Questions about 'Potion combos' 
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Mini-Boss
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Joined: March 22nd, 2014, 12:55 am
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I have two questions about potions. I've been playing SDE for a good while, but I don't recall seeing any particular rules about potions.

#1: Can two potions 'stack' when used at the same time?
i.e can the Star Guild Sapper's Burning Bloom potion, which grants all normal melee attacks range 8 and fire, and the Sister of Light's Elixer of Light, which grants all melee attacks Cross 1, Holy and Fire stack together granting a unit a range 8, cross 1 holy fire barrage of attacks?
My last group of heroes did this to Angry Bear, making what they dubbed "The Orbital Bear Cannon'

#2: If after the Claw Tribe Barbarian uses her Rage ability, which is tied to her Movement score and is granted another 3AP can she use Rage again at her full movement?
i.e. Barb is equipped with the Sword of Alacrity, rages, does 6 attacks, Sawblade style, then Candy and Cola use their Sugar Rush Potion on her, does she have another 6 squares to Sawblade again?


April 20th, 2014, 9:41 pm
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Consul
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1. Normally yes. But there's no such thing as range 8, Cross 1.
Cross is always from the center of the attacker - You can't put a range on that (or any AoE for that matter, with Burst being the exception).
You can get holy and fire and EITHER range 8 OR Cross 1.
I'd personally rule that the latest drunk potion decides the attack type.

2. No, as you wrote yourself, it's tied to her movement. Getting extra Action Points doesn't restore movement. No movement, no sawblade.
But after using rage she could still get 3 new AP and then just use normal attacks. That's a total of 9 attacks!!! :shock:

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April 20th, 2014, 10:33 pm
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@Goblin King:
Aaah, I see. thanks for clearing that up. Good thing I don't think any potions grant a burst-style AOE.
No more Orbital Bear cannon.

Hueh hueh hueh hueh. Nine attacks with the Barb still is nasty. That's almost enough to 1-shot Roxor.


April 21st, 2014, 12:18 am
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Mini-Boss
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Hmm... interesting questions. I think I would differ slightly in my answers:
1. The cross AoE must be centred on the user and so can't be delivered at range, true. But I should have thought that rather than a Hero having an election between a ranged and a cross attack the cross ability would override range. Thus if a Hero had drunk both of the potions you mentioned all their attacks would work as Holy Fire Cross 1 attacks.
2. Again it's clear that rage does nothing to restore movement. But I wonder whether Rage can stack with itself, such that if you used Rage twice before moving you could get 2 attacks per move. I only say this because the case seems to fall between the cracks of the rule against effect stacking. This is because it seems to me that:

1. Rage does not have an area, and so is not covered by the 1.5 rulebook rule that "If a model is affected by two area effects simultaneously the effects are cumaltive as long as the abilities are different -- even if their effects are the same.". This seems to me to be so even if you treat 'personal' as a possible area type, since the ability is an untargeted special attack with an explicit statement of who it affects rather than a targeted buff effect.
2. Rage does not affect a stat, and so could not be brought under the ruling (made in the context of potion stacking) that "If it is something that augments a stat it affects them until their next activation. For instance: Candy and the Scout's potion. You can benefit from either or both but not from the same one over and over. If the potions effects expire immediately, such as the Paladin's Elixir or Rogue's Dimensional Draught, they may be used back to back.".
3. Neither does it grant a keyword ability that a model can either have or not have. Rage simply states that a certain effect is to trigger every time a circumstance occurs, and sets a certain stat to a certain value until a different circumstance occurs.
4. Rage does not have a duration. This is the funny thing about it being a special attack, whose effects normally expire immediately. To me the way that Rage makes most sense given this fact is that once used it creates the effects it states as freestanding rule scripts - the special attack itself terminates on resolution under the ordinary rules for special attacks and the rule scripts themselves have their own explicit termination triggers.

Do please correct me if I've missed any ruling on point with this.


April 21st, 2014, 10:28 am
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Consul
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I'd definitely say Rage can't stack with itself. It's an attack which you have to resolve before you can make it again. Simple as that.
If you had an extra action you couldn't stop in the middle and make a normal attack and then continue sawblading either.
Rage is unusual in the way that it goes on for so long and you get to move during the attack, but at the end of the day it's just a regular special attack like all the rest.

No 12-attack sawblade for you my friend! :D

I think you are right about Cross trumping Range though. The reason being the wording on the card. "All attacks are Cross 1". Sounds like you don't have a choice.

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April 21st, 2014, 10:52 am
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Dr. Despair wrote:

1. Rage does not have an area, and so is not covered by the 1.5 rulebook rule that "If a model is affected by two area effects simultaneously the effects are cumaltive as long as the abilities are different -- even if their effects are the same.". This seems to me to be so even if you treat 'personal' as a possible area type, since the ability is an untargeted special attack with an explicit statement of who it affects rather than a targeted buff effect.



Effects of the same name do not stack. It does not matter if it's an AOE or not. If the effects have the same name, then they do not stack.


April 21st, 2014, 12:34 pm
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Goblin-King wrote:
I'd definitely say Rage can't stack with itself. It's an attack which you have to resolve before you can make it again. Simple as that.
If you had an extra action you couldn't stop in the middle and make a normal attack and then continue sawblading either.
Rage is unusual in the way that it goes on for so long and you get to move during the attack, but at the end of the day it's just a regular special attack like all the rest.

That kinda makes sense, but when exactly would we treat Rage as being resolved? Is it when all continuing effects of the attack have been concluded, i.e. at the start of the Barbarian's next activation when the armour debuff concludes? If so it seems like this account would cause some problems for Von Wilder's Shag Fest. That too has an effect which doesn't finish until the beginning of the model's next activation (the +1R STR on a successful roll), but I've never heard it said one successful shag prevents one from attempting another straight afterwards. ;)

chibi-noki wrote:
Effects of the same name do not stack. It does not matter if it's an AOE or not. If the effects have the same name, then they do not stack.

I know this is the rational and sensible approach, but I can't seem to find it written down in blackletter in any of the official rule sources (only what I've quoted above). Did Deke or similar officially rule on this but it hasn't made its way into an FAQ? I have an argumentative player group you see, and so being able to summon up the final word on the subject is useful for preventing protracted rules disputes. :geek:


April 21st, 2014, 3:39 pm
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Dr. Despair wrote:
That kinda makes sense, but when exactly would we treat Rage as being resolved? Is it when all continuing effects of the attack have been concluded, i.e. at the start of the Barbarian's next activation when the armour debuff concludes? If so it seems like this account would cause some problems for Von Wilder's Shag Fest. That too has an effect which doesn't finish until the beginning of the model's next activation (the +1R STR on a successful roll), but I've never heard it said one successful shag prevents one from attempting another straight afterwards. ;)


+Dice on a special attac do NOT last until the models next activation. When the Attack is resolved that's it. Lycantrophy affects a model that was wounded and survives it. If you hit a model two times in a row with shag fest and it gets wounded twice and survives it. it still will only gain +1 red dice.


April 21st, 2014, 4:46 pm
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Götz Kirchhauser wrote:
+Dice on a special attac do NOT last until the models next activation. When the Attack is resolved that's it. Lycantrophy affects a model that was wounded and survives it. If you hit a model two times in a row with shag fest and it gets wounded twice and survives it. it still will only gain +1 red dice.


Sorry, bad phrasing. I meant to refer to the +1R STR bonus from Lycanthropy, not the one granted by the Shag Fest attack. The point I was trying to make was that, because the Lycanthropy attack bonus from that attack lasts until Von Wilder's next activation, it seemed that (like Rage) this attack does not fully resolve until the subsequent activation. Therefore if we were to apply the rule that Goblin-King has provided us that would suggest that, on successfully wounded a model with Shag Fest and triggered Lycanthropy, Von Wilder would not be able to use Shag Fest again during that activation because the first use of Shag Fest would not have resolved.


April 21st, 2014, 6:51 pm
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Dr. Despair wrote:
Götz Kirchhauser wrote:
+Dice on a special attac do NOT last until the models next activation. When the Attack is resolved that's it. Lycantrophy affects a model that was wounded and survives it. If you hit a model two times in a row with shag fest and it gets wounded twice and survives it. it still will only gain +1 red dice.


Sorry, bad phrasing. I meant to refer to the +1R STR bonus from Lycanthropy, not the one granted by the Shag Fest attack. The point I was trying to make was that, because the Lycanthropy attack bonus from that attack lasts until Von Wilder's next activation, it seemed that (like Rage) this attack does not fully resolve until the subsequent activation. Therefore if we were to apply the rule that Goblin-King has provided us that would suggest that, on successfully wounded a model with Shag Fest and triggered Lycanthropy, Von Wilder would not be able to use Shag Fest again during that activation because the first use of Shag Fest would not have resolved.


Shag fest applies the effect Lycanthropy. Whether or not the other model has lycanthropy is irrelevant to if he can use Shag fest again. That's like saying you can't use an attack with fire because the target is already on fire. The attack applies lycanthropy and then it is done. There is no lasting effect for Von Wilder.

Rage is the only real unique attack as it does not resolve instantly. Shag fest applying a debuff/buff is not the same thing.


April 21st, 2014, 7:59 pm
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