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 2P Starter Concerns: Take 2 
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Joined: September 9th, 2012, 1:25 am
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Location: Australia
So I have been reading over the latest rules update and I am at a bit of a loss over the 2P starter.

The goals of the 2P starter (I believe) are to: catch new players by offering value, teach new players the rules, provide new players with a 35pt Cadre for Void and or Radiant for maximum flexibility.

I think that in "value" the product has improved in terms of raw box content.

I also believe in terms of "teaching the rules" and "maximum flexibility" the product has gotten worse. Based on the units contained in the product I wouldn't recommend it to a new player.

Teaching the Rules
The 2P units specifically omit many rules that are common to units in the game making them non-indicative of what the game is like. Because the game is a mixture of interaction between the rule book and the unit cards, simplified unit cards do not create the correct impression of the rules of the game.

Tahariel and Bang Bang do not follow the usual rules for Cadre Abilities in that they do not require discarding cards to place Power Tokens.
No Upgrades on units.
Token placing rules are omitted.

Maximum Flexibility
For maximum flexibility the units (both cards and models) should transfer to the full game at the same effectiveness of any other unit. In several cases the units are just worse than their non-2P version (Kaylee vs Stalker, the minion squads).

Dark Pinions are an 8 point squad of 3 with a ranged attack of 8 dmg, while the Seraphim for 8 points is a squad of 4 (with upgrade) with a Psychic or Melee attack of 7 dmg. Yes the Pinions do 1 more point of damage but the Seraphim are a more flexible unit that open up more tactical options in game play. The game isn't just about dps!

Fixing the Problem
As it stands now the Radiant Cadre when created with the non-2P versions of the models totals 32 points and the Void one (where Mikhal doesn't have an alt) totals 33 points.

If you make the following adjustments:
  • Tonerrian Stalker to be 11pts + 1pt upgrade (or make the upgrade 2pts).
  • Seraphim and Enforcers to be 2(2).
  • Tahariel and Bang Bang's Cadre Abilities to be in line with other Knights and upping their cost by 1 each.
You would have two 35pt Cadres that transfer directly from the 2P starter to general play without special consideration or adjustment, the units in the 2P would be indicative of the game as a whole and the models in the 2P could then be unique to the 2P. This then allows teaching the rules more completely and giving a more accurate impression of the game in the 2P and provides better value for money as the units translate directly while still holding uniqueness.

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October 21st, 2017, 4:31 am
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Joined: August 27th, 2012, 5:11 am
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I agree with the broad strokes of this thread. Buyers' remorse for the starter should be avoided at all costs.

October 21st, 2017, 5:14 am
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Joined: August 22nd, 2016, 6:01 pm
Posts: 695
Thanks for this thread.

I disagree that the starter needs to introduce every ability. If no units in the starter have Negate or Hobble, as an example, those are simple enough to learn once you have the core rules down. I want the starter units simple to really get people comfortable with the basic ways actions, presses, and movement work. Get the core of the game down and then the fiddly details get a lot easier to learn when they come up.

However, I completely agree with your second point. These units should definitely be useful outside of the starter, and the lists should add up to 35 points. I will look into re-costing them and making sure their stats are good enough to justify still seeing the table when weighed against their relative simplicity.


The Demogorgon tires of your silly human bickering!


October 23rd, 2017, 5:32 pm
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Joined: September 9th, 2012, 1:25 am
Posts: 321
Location: Australia
Not every option in the game needs to be in the Starter.

The Starter should accurately present the game.

Dumbed down Units do not accurately present the game.

Further dumbed down units creat balance issues; they usually under perform outside the context they were designed for making their purchase bad long term.

There are 2 solutions;
Just use normal units.
Include the normal unit version of the cards in the Starter along with the L2P version.

Both reward the purchaser with access to units balanced for the full game experience, 1 of them happens to cost less real $.

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October 24th, 2017, 11:14 am
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