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 How would you have designed Legends? 
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Mini-Boss
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Joined: September 2nd, 2012, 8:15 pm
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I know I'm not the only one who is a little disappointed with what Legends is shaping up to be. I still love Super Dungeon though, and I don't want to just up and sell my whole collection. That's why I want to think of some ways I can homebrew a Legends system myself, inspired by the original pitch of the project. If anyone else wants to share their ideas, great! I'm just getting some ideas out of my head now, but this could turn into an actual project for me.

First off I want to tell you how I imagined Legends. It was going to be an expansion to Super Dungeon, and would be compatible with everything thus far. You would use all the cards, boards, rules, etc. The difference is that it would allow you to play themed games in a campaign that allow your hero to get more powerful. That's basically it. So here are a few breakdowns on key gameplay elements I would have.

Loot and Treasure: During each encounter, you will gain Loot and Treasure similarly to how you do in a regular game. Loot might be distributed differently, instead of just killing monsters though. At the end of the encounter, each hero has to discard all the equipment gained. Each Loot discarded gains them 1 crystal, while each Treasure gains them 3 crystals. The color of the crystal gained depends on the slot the card equips to. I liked this mechanic because it sets a cap on how powerful heroes can get. Each hero basically starts 'fresh' at the beginning of an encounter, so you don't have to worry about them steamrolling all the enemies.

Crystals: There are 5 colored crystal types. You get Sapphire, Ruby, Citrine, and Emerald crystals mostly from disenchanting your equipment at the end of an encounter. There are also rare Amethyst crystals, which are few in number. Heroes will gain one Amethyst Crystal just for completing the encounter, but can get more by completing optional objectives. You can also take one of each other colored crystal to exchange for an Amethyst Crystal, or break down one Amethyst Crystal into 1 each of the other 4 types. The regular 4 colored crystals are used to buy Skills and Items. Amethyst crystals are used to Rank up mainly, but may be used for other things too.

So basically my idea is to make Amethyst crystals act as "experience" for the heroes. They are given out steadily after each encounter, so heroes will always have a trickle coming in to Rank Up. They will never get so much to "break" the game and go straight from B to XS in a few adventures. The other 4 types simply act like currency to buy Skills and Items.

Rank: Heroes all start at Rank B, and can spend Amethyst Crystals to Rank up. All heroes share the same Rank, so they all advance together. I think it's better to assign the party a Rank than to have to fiddle with what Heroes are what Rank. Heroes can only buy Skills that are the same Rank or lower than theirs.

Skills: Skill cards are gained by buying them with Crystals. Skills will grant heroes either an increase to their stats, a new keyword, or a new ability. Most Skills will have a crystal affinity requirement that needs to be met. For example, one might require a hero have at least 1 Citrine crystal to learn the skill. More specialized skills might require a hero to match the affinity perfectly. Here are a few examples of what I mean.

Speedy
Rank B
No Requirement
Hero gains +1 to their movement.
Cost: 3 Sapphire

Berserk
Rank B
1 Citrine Crystal
Hero gains Berserk
Berserk: Once during a hero's activation, they may make one basic melee attack costing no action points.
Cost: 4 Citrine

Leaping Strike
Rank B
1 Citrine or Emerald Crystal
Hero gains the following ability:
2 Red Actions - Range 1 Melee - Leaping Strike: Leap
Leap: Choose an enemy model within 3 squares and line of sight. Place this model adjacent to the enemy model before making the attack.
Cost: 2 Emerald, 1 Citrine

Well Traveled
Rank B
1 Ruby or Emerald Crystal
This Hero may add 1W to any knowledge test that they are required to take.
Cost: 2 Ruby

As heroes are able to Rank up, they gain access to more powerful Skills. As you see, you have some variety with being able to increase your stats, or give you new abilities. Even some Skills might be useful for noncombat encounters too. Again, this would take a long time to try to implement. I can see why they abandoned this idea to go with a much simpler one. Still, I think it can be done. With all the stuff Legends has now, I think there is a good framework of simple skills to work into things.

That's all for now. I'll post more when I have time to go on. I'd still love to hear all of your thoughts on what could have been done differently.


November 10th, 2017, 3:25 am
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Denizen
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Joined: April 16th, 2014, 6:41 pm
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I think what you suggest can work rather well in Explore/Arcade. Loot converted into crystals and group can purchase new skills using credits after game. Basically linked battles with level up choices. The skills in Hero book can potentially be converted into this system.

Personally I feel current Legends system is more interesting. Play time is less and it has story elements. Not just intro/outro. This said I have a few doubts about Legends direction (no proper AI / monster actions in battle may need to be RPG'ed / method to balance of different hero count and issues of quick hero knockdowns). I think the end result is good, but not designing the game around the above things in brackets means (at least for me) the game won't live to its full potential.


November 10th, 2017, 6:53 am
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Minion
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I see good ideas here!

I will follow this topic for sure...

Things coming upfront to my mind :

- I would keep a certain form of classes or job to drive what a given character can choose

- In a given class/job, I would allow a more piece by piece special actions building. e.g. First time, the player buy "melee 3" as prime benefit of the brand new special action of his hero (instead the regular melee 1 it has). Then later he will add it the Slow rule (but it could have been Fire or any other Status allowed to his class), and later he will replace melee 3 by Lance 3 and so on.


November 10th, 2017, 10:26 am
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Bottle Cap
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Joined: October 10th, 2017, 10:21 pm
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I think I would've just made it purely equipment based with higher tiers

Sapphire being lowest tier
Ruby Being next
Emerald Tier after that
Citrine tier after that
and Amethyst tier as the highest

base attacks would have also been loot based, as base stats would be used purely for challenges while attacking would be printed on the weapon loot. Every hero in play would have starter loot and they could later get better gear via crafting or finding.

Equipment would be loot, treasure, and relics. Loot would just be basic equipment, but treasure and relics would be acquired only via quests or special circumstances.

I have a pretty clear vision, but i would wanna see the finished legends product first.


November 10th, 2017, 3:25 pm
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Minion
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This is gonna be long because I did actually design something. Since I made a campaign for casual players who have never touched D&D or anything like it in their lives, here's what I did:

I started off all heroes with 3 hearts and 2 blue dice in each stat, with 1 action per turn and a base of 4 movement, then had players pick from a list of races, each coming with a bonus, and a list of classes, each coming with a bonus.

For instance, a dwarf player got extra ARM die, while a rogue got an extra DEX die.

Then they picked a single ability for their class. Because they are noobs, I made the options limited: 4 classes (fighter, protector, mage, and rogue) and 3 options for abilities for that class. (I.e. Protector can compel, iron halo, or wave heal 1.)

I didn't change any of the monster stats from their cards.

Loot has to be bought (with a few exceptions) and is separated into good, better, best tiers for cost. Treasure is event-specific.

I wrote scenarios and encounters, some of which include full spawning points and multiple tiles like a regular game of SDE, while others have things like looking for a key while navigating a tile full of traps, or plucking up plants with a random chance of pulling up evil mushroom monsters. Each encounter comes with a set amount of experience, and when they level up at 100 exp they pick a stat to upgrade.

(And shout-out to the SDE card creator for making it look like my hero cards belong in the game.) :D

So far, they're enjoying it, and I love being DM. If I were Soda Pop, I'd be getting these scenarios out to backers to test difficulty and to tweak numbers (maybe monsters need an extra armor or heart as heroes level or something) as quickly as possible, as there are things like, one encounter my heroes slaughtered everything easily, and it wasn't as fun for heroes or for me.

The story follows Crystalia lore as well as I know it, plus fluff from my own imagination. So far my heroes spent most of their time in the Fae Wood, and they've teamed up with Emerald before without knowing she's a princess. They branched out to help Marie Claude keep zombies away from the Grog and Gruel inn, then headed into Glauerdoom Moor to "rescue" a woman from some witches, who turned out to be Succubus Vandella in disguise. But they're afraid of taking on any more undead, so they're off to help a farmer who's been having trouble with kobolds. I am excited for the day they discover Em is a princess, for pitting Beatrix and Von Drakk against each other and having them pick a side, for having them investigate the Cult of the Burning Star, and for all the other wonderful adventures that have yet to be written.


November 10th, 2017, 7:54 pm
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Mini-Boss
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Okay, so I was working on an idea for encounters. I hate that it's so generic right now. I really wanted something more in depth and objective based. I used Descent as my inspiration, so here is a rough idea of what I want to accomplish.

https://imgur.com/a/5fLPf

Hopefully that image works. Basically it's the first page of an encounter. It lays out what monsters you need, and any special rules. Loot is gained by searching Loot piles instead of killing monsters. It's far from perfect, but it's a good idea of what I was hoping Legends to be. What do you all think?


November 13th, 2017, 6:16 pm
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Bottle Cap

Joined: November 13th, 2017, 6:10 pm
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I'm kind of torn on how I would do legends. I think they missed the mark a bit on the draft they have right now. I want a system where I can either use pre-generated, out of the box heroes - or you can create your own character, and go on adventures from there.

Char Gen:
-Have a master list of races and racial traits. Players select a race and select a trait.

-Have affinity selection.

-Have archetypes - in essence they had already done that, but I think it needs more options. Each character in SDE has some kind of unique feature - so teasing those out and aligning them to archetypes and allowing selection between one of two abilities to start would be nice.

-Base dice in stats is determined by Race, Affinity and Archetype.

-Starting a fresh char results in something less powerful than an out of the box hero, but will be more

Char Advancement:
-Have some kind of XP currency. You could use crystals and reagents, or you could have just xp and keep crystals as a separate economy for crafting only.

-Have dice and abilities cost a certain amount of XP currency (and if going the crystal route, maybe have some abilities require reagents). Have the cost be determined by how many/what kind of dice a character already has, and the character's affinity. This way, characters can breakout of their archetype, it's just more expensive/time consuming to do this.

Adventures:
-Make it so that adventures are based off of suggested hero xp currency (e.g. an adventure for 4 heroes of 500 crystals/xp whatever).

-Random adventure tables. I'm a big fan of Arcade mode (I already DM tons of games, I sometimes just want to play and not worry about anyone having to run) - so something where I can roll adversaries, objectives, and basic plot elements. The rolls on the table would be effected by the suggested crystals for the game.

-Rewards for adventures that incorporate the loot and treasure deck draws, completed objectives, and so on. Keeping eq from adventure to adventure would be too powerful, so I like the idea of paying crystals to create permenant items, or having to pay an upkeep of crystals to keep items between adventures.

There's a fine line between modularity, crunch, and record keeping to straddle. I think SDE invites a long form game with RPG elements, but I also think that what they have right now feels too different from core SDE with insufficient options considering how different it is.


November 13th, 2017, 8:05 pm
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Bottle Cap
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eternaldream wrote:
Okay, so I was working on an idea for encounters. I hate that it's so generic right now. I really wanted something more in depth and objective based. I used Descent as my inspiration, so here is a rough idea of what I want to accomplish.

https://imgur.com/a/5fLPf

Hopefully that image works. Basically it's the first page of an encounter. It lays out what monsters you need, and any special rules. Loot is gained by searching Loot piles instead of killing monsters. It's far from perfect, but it's a good idea of what I was hoping Legends to be. What do you all think?


Now is this purely 1 vs Many or does this include "arcade" rules?


November 14th, 2017, 3:32 am
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Denizen
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Joined: April 16th, 2014, 6:41 pm
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eternaldream wrote:
Okay, so I was working on an idea for encounters. I hate that it's so generic right now. I really wanted something more in depth and objective based. I used Descent as my inspiration, so here is a rough idea of what I want to accomplish.

https://imgur.com/a/5fLPf

Hopefully that image works. Basically it's the first page of an encounter. It lays out what monsters you need, and any special rules. Loot is gained by searching Loot piles instead of killing monsters. It's far from perfect, but it's a good idea of what I was hoping Legends to be. What do you all think?

Looks very nice to me! Even if heroes lose the scenario, story will continue slightly differently.


November 14th, 2017, 6:38 pm
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Minion
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I would have made Legends a D&D style game system with leveling, monster manual, and a full RPG experience. Yes you can do it with the current cards and it would work out fine. I have play a dozen RPG systems since the the original paper back D&D books form the 70's, and think they dropped the ball not only on as making a better game but cash wise in selling monsters.

@eternaldream maybe some weekend in the spring we can do that. As you know I am in Pgh.

I nearly have a super arena game done and working on a fast play total new rules SDE


November 26th, 2017, 9:57 pm
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Mini-Boss
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This is a hard one. In my experience, games that have one-off and campaign modes only work in one of those two settings.

Games like Shadows of Brimstone, Gloomhaven, Arcadia Quest or Undercity are really all about the campaign- with "one-off" games falling pretty short of the whole experience.

On the other hand, games like Massive Darkness or Dark Souls really only work as one-offs and have poor campaign experiences.


In Super Dungeon Explore has characters start at 'level 1' and a good portion of the game features them powering up enough to beat the end boss (and the monsters level up with you). That's pretty much the same as Dark Souls, Massive Darkness or Zombicide (each working best for one-off games). The trick is to preserve this part of the experience without having to destroy the campaign experience (which none of those games do).


I feel that in order to have a really good campaign experience, the changes in Legends would need to be pretty fundamental. If I were the designer, I'd have focused on the game as a campaign dungeon crawler, and really downplayed the RPG elements. I would definitely focus the scenarios on non-kill objectives.

The simplest solution I've seen is to have leveled Loot and Treasure decks. So for your first game or two, you use the normal loot and treasure decks, and as you go through the campaign, the loot you pick up gets better and better.

I'd also have created ability trees for each crystal affinity (and possibly also the cross affinities). I'd probably have four paths for each affinity, and try to keep the abilities fun and balanced.

For the monsters, I'd have a leveling Mighty Monster chart, or a Mighty Monster deck. The deck appeals to me because it adds a random element (making no two campaigns alike) but I fear that pulling the right cards could make the game less fun (if the monsters pull a bunch of armor upgrades, then the game can get long and boring).


I have my biases. I prefer the GMless experience, and I see SDE as a Tactical Miniatures game, not an RPG, so I would severely downplay RPG elements. But that's just me.

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November 29th, 2017, 8:21 pm
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Denizen
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I have rewritten Legends. The rule book currently stands at 31 pages, with room for expansion, if you include the campaign intro story, its like 50+ pages hahaha.

I digress, ANYWAY!

The design I did is a Arcade/GM hybrid so I can also play as well as create.

First thing I said, How can I can get people to use these iconic heroes and their minis without making the minis just place holders.

So for that I have created a generic leveling tree that over time, you add dice to stats of your choosing, so for instance I think at level 2 you get 1 blue dice to a stat, and at level 5 you get a red dice to a stat. You can not double up these benefits, so choose accordingly, or if you really want to just level up a single stat, you replace the blue with the red. Then at higher levels you can carry equipment through from dungeon to dungeon. So you can farm armor sets, etc... You also gain health and potion limit size as you level.

Each dungeon starts a new.

The enemies in the dungeon are leveled to the highest level of a character in the group, so you always want to be similar levels, not a level 1 with a level 10.

Second thing I said was how do I make it not redundant one offs?

I introduced first the city of "Haven", as its currently named until we name it as a group. In the city you can purchase a guild charter for yourself to store extra characters, get a guild bank, guild quest hall, guild black smith, crystal miners etc.

In town you have the ability to craft, sell and trade on the auction house, enter Arena and PVP battle grounds for PVP specific loot (AKA THE ARENA DECK) and of course, the biggest part, gain quests.

There is a generic quest giver with 100 different quests that until i get the cards made you can roll on a chart to see what quest you get. Then you get rewards based on the quest.

There will be special quests for events, festivals and world events!


So how do I make it still seem not like Dungeon/town stay/dungeon/town stay?


Seasonal events and special events.


Ill just give you the example of the one that started today. Father Winter's Holiday extravaganza!!!!

Special quests allow you to unlock additional characters for your guild.

Snowball fight minigame.

Kobold sled race.

The last session before Christmas (everyone in my group celebrates, even my jewish friend, so don't get offended) everyone will get a package. In it will be some crafting materials, a special pet, and a new years quest!

What else is there for end game?

Well the current level cap is 10, so what happens when you max?

Enter the Elemental temple of Jorogumo!!

A six winged Raid. Six wings, 4 tiles each, custom tiles. Ends with you battling Jorogumo and her two spider sisters. It will be a raid for 8-9 characters.

In addition end game crafting has Armor specific quests:

For example: If you forge the Von Drakk set, you gain a set bonus that on a kill you have a chance to rez a skeleton warrior that fights for you for the next 2 turns.

Where does the game go after level 10? Who knows, the rules are in a binder with space for more raids, more events, more crafting, more heroes. The story and possibilities are endless. And after all, If you read the rise of the true necromancer story in the fiction, The return of Celeste could be the first expansion and level cap raise to this.

So in short, I have made a game where you characters stay as the Iconic characters they are meant to be, with the ability to craft, quest, pvp, arena, have a guild, level your guild, and earn rewards, pets, characters, etc...

Its a lot of fun and December 15th the official release/non beta play through begins and the official story and playing of WORLD OF SUPER DUNGEON EXPLORE-CRAFT BEGINS!!!!!!!!

Edit: I also have a custom character tray for easy record keeping, Ill post when those arrive.


December 1st, 2017, 2:02 pm
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Minion
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I like the idea that you thought a lot about what can happen outside the dungeon. Using the arena as a place to level up or train and get exclusive gear is a good way to incorporate it into normal gameplay. I really like the idea of seasonal events as it is something different from normal quests and it also makes the world of Crystalia seem more realistic. RPGs game should be a lot about the world and not just dungeon exploring. You need to put this stuff on the forum. I think that this will give people options of how they want to play. Most gaming groups make their own house rules to taylor the game to their own taste and wants. I can't wait to see more of your work.


December 2nd, 2017, 10:50 pm
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Bottle Cap
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I had one thought, about items.

During adventures, you receive equipment drops from monsters as normal, but they have durability and break often, thus need to be replaced just in the dungeon you are in. On the other hand, Treasure and Crafted items don't break, and there's a set size to the backpack. During downtime, players can sell the junk equipment for gold, or just keep it until the next adventure.


December 5th, 2017, 2:42 pm
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Denizen
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GoblinMage wrote:
I like the idea that you thought a lot about what can happen outside the dungeon. Using the arena as a place to level up or train and get exclusive gear is a good way to incorporate it into normal gameplay. I really like the idea of seasonal events as it is something different from normal quests and it also makes the world of Crystalia seem more realistic. RPGs game should be a lot about the world and not just dungeon exploring. You need to put this stuff on the forum. I think that this will give people options of how they want to play. Most gaming groups make their own house rules to taylor the game to their own taste and wants. I can't wait to see more of your work.



I love you goblinmage. If you are in New York, come play some time.


December 11th, 2017, 1:20 pm
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