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 SDE Rebuild house rules 
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Consul
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9/23 - Based on the clarified direction of the Classic rules as of SDE Beta 1.6, I will be restarting development of SDE Rebuild over the coming weeks. My intent is to finalize the SDE Rebuild ruleset by the time SDE Legends releases to KS backers.
______

In going through various editions (published, house and beta) for Super Dungeon Explore, I've felt the game is overcomplicated and should be slimmed down to its core experience of fighting Monsters and the ultimate Dungeon Boss fight. I have rebuilt the game by simplifying, streamlining and/or consolidating various mechanics for both setup and gameplay. The result should be similar to the original 1.0 gameplay, while incorporating various other elements into a tighter, more cohesive experience.

Objectives
1. 2 hour target for a 3 Hero game
2. retain and reuse Forgotten King 2.0 cards, tiles, etc. for compatibility
3. accept Hero / Spawn / mini-Boss / Boss (im-)balance as it currently sits
4. Simplify, simplify, simplify!

SDE Rebuild r0.86

https://www.dropbox.com/s/oga6gai3l84v8 ... 4.pdf?dl=0

This PDF is to be used in conjunction with the Classic rules for movement, activation, combat, status effects, etc.


At this point, I need to playtest further before making more changes.

Release History
r0.84 initial release - 15 May 2016
r0.85 released - 19 May 2016
r0.86 released - 24 May 2016

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SDE Rebuild Edition house rules (updated 5/24).


Last edited by GrauGeist on September 24th, 2016, 2:04 am, edited 16 times in total.



April 12th, 2016, 7:28 am
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Consul
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Note that this is obsolete as of SDE Rebuild 0.84...
____

This is how I think Princess Coins & Dark Consul Coins should work as a unified Coin mechanic that benefits the Heroes prior to the Boss Fight, and the Consul after the Boss Fight starts:

PRINCESS COIN

A Princess Coin represents a player putting another quarter into the machine and hitting the Start button. The Heroes can use a Princess Coin at any time prior to the start of the Boss Fight; once the Boss Fight starts, no further Coins may be used.

Princess Coin - The Heroes always have an unlimited supply of Princess Coins. A Princess Coin can be used by the Heroes to:
a) Remove up to 3 Wounds and a single Status Effect from any ONE (1) Hero;
b) Continue by resurrecting a fallen Hero; or
c) Continue by selecting a new Hero.

Resurrect a fallen Hero - When a Hero dies, place a marker where they died and move all of their Equipment off to the side. The Hero's player may then spend a Princess Coin to resurrect that fallen Hero. Remove all wounds and status effects on the Hero; then place one Potion on their card. Equip the Hero with their previous equipment; then the player removes and discards one piece of equipment.

New Hero - Alternately, instead of resurrecting the fallen Hero, the player may instead select any other Hero from the Heroes available. Place the new Hero adjacent to where the previous Hero died and remove the marker. Equip the new Hero with the fallen Hero's equipment and place one Potion on their card. The Consul may then remove and discard one piece of equipment on the new Hero, instead of the player choosing.

DARK CONSUL COIN

When the Heroes use a Princess Coin, the Consul gains a Dark Consul Coin that focuses his power. If the Consul possesses any Coins, then all Spawn Points and Super Monsters gain +1B Defense.

If, at any time, the Consul possesses as many Coins as there are Heroes still on the board, the Heroes run away and the Consul wins the game. For example, if the Consul gains 3 Coins in a 3-Hero game, the Consul wins that game; if the Consul defeats all but 1 Hero, while holding 1 Coin, the Consul wins the game.

Once, during the Boss Fight, the Consul may use a Coin to:
a) Remove ALL Wounds and ALL Status Effects from the Dungeon Boss, then Teleport the Dungeon Boss to any empty square on the current Tile.
If the Consul uses a Coin in this way, it is destroyed.


Notes:
There is no Boss Fight Timeout in this version -- the Consul Coin replaces that effect. Also, the Consul has enough going on, so simplify the Consul Coin effects and options to the minimum.

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SDE Rebuild Edition house rules (updated 5/24).


Last edited by GrauGeist on May 20th, 2016, 6:52 am, edited 1 time in total.



April 12th, 2016, 7:37 pm
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Consul
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r0.84 Designer's Notes - 5/15

https://www.dropbox.com/s/thqyuwyqt8hdv ... 6.pdf?dl=0

As I have said before, any new version of SDE needs to be fully compatible with the physical components in Forgotten King and original SDE, and that is something I have tried to do.

Game size is tied to tiles, minimum 2 to 4 tiles maximum, with 3 being the nominal preferred size, and 2 being an introductory game. In the interest of speed, I make 5 Hero an extra Hero option for a 4 tile game. For those who like more Loot, I add that option as well.

I replace the Loot Meter and Power Gauge with a simple activation countdown for spawning the various mini-Bosses and Bosses.

I deconstructed the Dungeon Map: the Heroes know where the Dungeon starts, but only the Consul knows where it goes.

I streamlined the Consul's victory conditions to simply 3 kills, which helps put a time limit on things. Same with only having 3 Princess Coins total at the start.

I restore the 1E Game Round structure and alternating activation, as I liked how that spawned. However, I did simplify the Initiative to shift in the Consul's favor for the later game. I also streamlined Minion activation to a per-tile basis.

I incorporate the Select New Hero option, at the cost of 1 item.

Loot is only awarded for destroying Spawn Points (or SMASHING Chests).

Run and Open / Smash Chest are tweaked, while Coins can be used for a smaller heal for mini-Boss or Heroes alike.

I also streamlined the Timeout in a big way.

The big change is how I handle remaining Spawn Points when there are no minions left to spawn, using the skulls to heal or cleanse monsters.

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SDE Rebuild Edition house rules (updated 5/24).


Last edited by GrauGeist on May 20th, 2016, 7:20 am, edited 3 times in total.



April 13th, 2016, 8:16 am
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Consul
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PDF of rules has been complied and is available for comment.

Further playtesting is required to tweak timers and such, but I have my basic structure down.

Oops, I see that I forgot to define Active Tile...

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SDE Rebuild Edition house rules (updated 5/24).


May 16th, 2016, 7:44 am
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Minion
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Well, this ruleset clearly worth the try to me!!


May 16th, 2016, 8:39 am
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Consul
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Sure, give it a go. I'm mostly looking for where you might be confused or unclear - I'm sure a portion of what I wrote only makes sense to me.

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SDE Rebuild Edition house rules (updated 5/24).


May 16th, 2016, 5:17 pm
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Bottle Cap
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Looks interesting to say the least, will test out when there's time (probably on weekend); one thing just catched my eye, might be because english is not my mother language. What is the exact turn order? Is it:

a) all of the heroes, one at a time and after that the consul activates all the remaining monsters (or bossy) OR

b) one hero, consul activates all monsters (or bossy), another hero, consul activates monsters, third hero...and so forth


But gotta say as my first intuition...this looks good! Queue up the theme for undead dungeon:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDdR4c9vcEw


May 17th, 2016, 5:21 am
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Consul
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b) is more correct:
Quote:
b) one hero, consul activates all monsters (or bossy), another hero, consul activates monsters, third hero...and so forth



Turn goes like this:

A) Early game, Consul has NO mini-Boss or Boss on the table:
1. Consul Spawns Minions
2. Hero 1
3. Consul (Tile 1)
4. Hero 2
5. Consul (Tile 2)
6. Hero 3
...

-then-

B) Consul has a mini-Boss (or Boss) on the table:
1. Consul Spawns Minions
2. Consul
3. Hero 1
4. Consul
5. Hero 2
4. Consul
5. Hero 3
...


Because the Consul moves Minions by Tile, the number of Consul activations can vary a lot:

For example, Round 1 will invariably be:
Hero 1
Consul (Tile 1)
Hero 2
Consul (Tile 2)
Hero 3+
That's because there are only 2 tiles with minions, no Supers.

At the end of the game, the Consul could be looking at
- Boss
- 1 mini-Boss
- 2 Tiles
against 3 Heroes.

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May 17th, 2016, 6:04 am
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Bottle Cap
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Can the consul activate same monsters again?

Example situation:

Heroes all start on tile 1 (as the enter marker would be there) and round 1 begins:
1. One hero activates and misses all his attacks
2. Consul activates monsters a,b,c,d
3. Second hero activates and kills monster b and harms the spawn point
4. consul activates monsters a,c,d
5. third hero activates and destroys the spawn point
6. consul activates again monsters a,c,d

---> 2nd round

Now I realized what's my problem; what is "active tile" ?

//edit: found what active tile means but it is not described in the pdf


May 17th, 2016, 7:12 am
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Consul
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Each monster or Hero activates once per Game Round.

For Round 1:
0. Consul spawns abcd / stuv
1. Hero 1
2. All Monsters on Tile 1 (abcd)
3. Hero 2 (kills b)
4. All Monsters on Tile 2 (stuv)
5. Hero 3 (kills spawn)

Round 2:
0. Consul spawns -- / wxyz
1. Hero 1 (kills ad)
2. All Monsters on Tile 1 (c)
3. Hero 2
4. All Monsters on Tile 2 (stuvwxyz)
5. Hero 3

Yeah, my mistake not to define active tile.

I'll have update with correction up "soon"

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SDE Rebuild Edition house rules (updated 5/24).


May 17th, 2016, 7:28 am
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Mini-Boss
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Wait, what happens if the monster moves to another tile, does it activate again?

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Game on!


May 18th, 2016, 4:07 pm
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Consul
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Question: what happens if the monster moves to another tile, does it activate again?
Answer: No, each monster activates only once.

What can happen is:
Consul Tile 1, some minions move to Tile 2.
Consul Tile 2, all minions that didn't activate before activate now.

Sorry that wasn't clear, I'll clarify the wording.

Errata:
Consul Activation
Each turn, the Consul activates either:
* one Super model, or
* all minions on an active tile.
Note that each model may only be activated once per game round, so minions moving to a new, active tile will not activate a second time.

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SDE Rebuild Edition house rules (updated 5/24).


May 18th, 2016, 5:51 pm
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Minion
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3 questions for clarification:

1) If the heroes destroy a Mini-Boss and draw a boo booty, does a boo booty spawn? Your rules don’t address this situation.

2) No matter how the heroes start or move on a 4 hero game, they’ll be dealing with 3 Active Tiles at some point in the game (unless the tiles are arranged in a line). There's also a possibility of 4 active tiles if the heroes start on the top of a T. Is this intentional?

3) Is the +1 blue dice to supers and spawns for each “Dark Consul Coin” cumulative effect (ie, does it stack)? Also, isn’t that another “kicking the hero while he’s down” rule?


And then a few for my own curiousity (after looking over these rules a few times):

1) Extra Hero: Aside from no extra loot dropped, doesn’t this give the heroes a big advantage without giving the Consul anything to counteract it?

2) Insignificant: Kind of a pointless ability now…
Along those lines, part of the balancing act of monsters dropping loot is how different monsters move and group. For example, the kobolds are loot happy but that balances out their insanely strong attack stats against a character that cannot respond to a mob attacking it in one turn. Loot is also somewhat symbolic of heroes gaining experience and leveling up as they kill enemies. It just seems like a huge step away from the original game/theme.

3) This looks almost identical to the original game in terms of the heroes, which is extremely limited. It also makes their losing conditions kinda unfulfilling for the Consul (I want those heroes dead) and the heroes ("What if I don't want my heroes to run away?"). The point is, though, it seems rather Consul friendly. It looks like it balances the boss fight at the expense of everything leading up to it (though I'm only using my experience with 1E, which seems very identical to this).

I will say though, it still looks much better than FK and Beta 1.0-1.3. Looks mostly like 1E with a static timer.

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Dramatically simplified/streamlined SDE Core Rulebook: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5693


May 19th, 2016, 1:07 am
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Consul
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First off, thank you very much for taking a look at this.

To answer your questions:

Round 1!

A1) This should not be possible, as I split the Treasure into 2 separate Treasure Decks. Boo Booty cards would be in the (generic) Treasure Chest deck; Boss & mini-Bosses Treasures (only) are in the (Super) Boss Treasure deck. When the Heroes defeat a mini-Boss, they will draw a card from the Boss Treasure Deck. I see that the rules were unclear on this point, and will make the distinction clearer. Sorry for the confusion, I'll revise this in the next revision to make it clearer. :oops:

A2) The Heroes could potentially have 3 or 4 Active tiles to deal with; however, they should be clearing their current Tile as they move. If the Heroes prioritize killing Spawns (and they are pretty strongly incented to do so!), then any linear (I, L, Z) arrangement should have a maximum of 2 Active tiles with Spawn Points generating monsters. In the case of a "T" configuration, yes, entering the center square will activate the remaining 2 tiles simultaneously. This is roughly analogous to the square configurations possible in FK Arcade along with the Q-shaped configurations we had in 1E, although 1E had all models moving anyways, so no real difference. I anticipated this, which is why I limited the Starting Tile to only having 1 other tile adjacent to it, giving the un-equipped Heroes some breathing room. I do not intend to outlaw "T"-shaped particular 4-Tile configurations. This was a really good question, BTW! :)

A3) The +1 blue dice for Supers and Spawns *are* cumulative! If the Consul has 3 Coins in hand, the Consul gets +BBB bonuses. That's the Consul's reward for knocking 3 Heroes down to the point that they need to use their coins. It's not actually a "win more" rule, because the Heroes don't actually lose anything from dying. They just give up a coin. Compared to being down a Hero, giving the Consul an extra blue die is a very small price to pay. Even if it is cumulative. :twisted:

Round 2!

A1) Yes, Extra Hero gives the Heroes the advantage of more Hero power per round for no Consul bonus. This is an intentional balancer for those who think the basic rules are too Consul-friendly. Same with the extra Loot, for those who think the Loot is too stingy (it's not!). Of course, if the Heroes are too good, that's what the extra Minion is for. I went with just a few levers, as it starts to confuse players if you give too many options. :lol:

A2) Yes, all Minions are effectively Insignificant. Kobolds shouldn't be loot happy, because that's Loot Farming. And Heroes should play smarter/better, to avoid getting mobbed to death. The biggest problem with tying Loot to Minions is that it penalizes Heroes for killing Spawns, slowing the game and encouraging farming tactics. I don't allow farming. Instead, I encourage Heroes to kill the Spawns, limiting the number of Minions, and collecting the full amount of Loot sooner rather than later. That Spawn Point gives 4 Loot, potentially from only the initial 4 Skulls of 8-bit 4 Kobolds. Versus the 12+ Kobolds the Heroes would have had to kill in 1E Original. Further, the Heroes get them all at once, rather than one at a time, so they can equip very efficiently. Compared with the original, Loot is more plentiful for Heroes who play efficiently, advancing the game, and less plentiful for Heroes who would have tried to farm. :shock:

A3) It is very deliberately similar to the original game, in many ways. Requiring a "Kill 'em All" Victory Condition is actually my general preference, as I primarily played head-to-head. For a very long time, I did not consider partial Hero death to be a problem. It was a feature! I now recognize that a number of people enjoy SDE as a party game for 4 to 6 players, in which sitting a number of players for an extended period of time is very undesirable. If it is acceptable for Heroes to be dead as the remaining Heroes fight it out to the bitter end, then I would reduce the number of Princess Coins down to 2 in a 4-Hero game, and just 1 in a 5-Hero game. I may call this out as an alternative play mode. :D

Balance-wise, the rules are supposed to slightly favor the Consul, say 5:4. But that's because the cards stats slightly favor the Heroes. So it should work out. Plus, there's always the Adjust Difficulty. ;)

At a very high level, it is supposed to be 1E with a static timer. That was very intentional.

Anyhow, thanks for the questions, hope my answers helped.

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SDE Rebuild Edition house rules (updated 5/24).


May 19th, 2016, 2:41 am
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Consul
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r0.85 Designer's Notes - 5/19

https://www.dropbox.com/s/soo64t05m7pwg ... b.pdf?dl=0

r0.85 is primarily a cleanup that clarifies various things, and addresses omissions:

* restored Spawns & Supers gaining +B defense per Consul Coin

* defined Active Tile and gave example at start of game

* clarified Loot / Treasure Chest / Boss Treasure decks

* clarified activation with example for Game Round 1

* modified run to match Beta 1.3, where 1 AP = 2 MP

Hopefully, this is clearer for everyone.


Note, did not incorporate "Kill 'em All" variant, as it's a fair bit of editing that didn't write up nicely. Sorry, maybe later.

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SDE Rebuild Edition house rules (updated 5/24).


May 20th, 2016, 7:34 am
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Consul
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We did a brief playtest tonight, new player, using the (basic!) Crystalia tiles and the SDE 2.0 minis (3 Tiles, 3 Heroes vs Rex & Starfire). Heroes got the first Spawn Point down soon enough, and the mini-Boss spawned shortly afterward, so that part of the pace was OK. Due to time, we weren't able to spawn the Dungeon Boss and finish the game.

Lots of questions, as to be expected of any new player. At a very high level, the game succeeds at being newbie-friendly, in the sense that there were far fewer things to forget or get wrong compared to SDE 1E, FK or any of the Beta versions. It played fast enough, with minimal bookkeeping overhead, so that was also good. Being able to use a Princess Coin to heal vs waiting for death is a good feature.

People are open to play(test)ing more games, so that's a positive sign.

Still, need to work on balancing and timing. A few cleanup / balance issues to work through.
____

ETA - In thinking about last night's game, I'm probably going to move the Supers countdown step from the start of the Consul Activation to the end of the Hero Activation. In a given round, the Consul may have as many as 6, or as few as 1 activation, possibly none. OTOH, the Heroes will have a constant number of activations equal to the number of Heroes selected, so it is a more consistent and predictable counter, something that is much harder for either side to game. More playtesting needed, but this is a likely change.

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SDE Rebuild Edition house rules (updated 5/24).


May 21st, 2016, 3:19 am
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Consul
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r0.86 Designer's Notes - 5/24

https://www.dropbox.com/s/oga6gai3l84v8 ... 4.pdf?dl=0

r0.86 has relatively few changes to the game itself:

* moved "Ready, Boss" to end of Hero Turn, rather than start of Consul Turn, due to consistency of Hero Turns vs variability of Consul Turns per Game Round.

* clarified Loot / Treasure Chest / Boss Treasure deck card draws

* added optional rules for Exploring (creeps & traps), Hardcore Heroes (Kill All), and Sturdy Supers (Hearts & Potions when attacking)

Enjoy!
____

5/26 - SPM released Beta 1.3, which is *very* similar to SDE Rebuild in many ways, so I put this on hold pending playtest of Beta 1.3. Thanks!

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SDE Rebuild Edition house rules (updated 5/24).


May 25th, 2016, 7:04 am
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Consul
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It has been 4 months since I suspended work on SDE Rebuild. As of 9/23, I will be restarting work on these House Rules, as I no longer believe that the Beta rules are going to produce the game that I desire to play. Which is totally fine, given that there isn't one true way to play with their stuff.

Nevertheless, the Beta process has clarified a few things for me, and I'll be revisiting things to see if I can't evolve this into something more tactical. It is entirely possible that this shifts into a pure tactical PvP combat game, and that's fine, too.

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SDE Rebuild Edition house rules (updated 5/24).


September 24th, 2016, 2:08 am
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