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Ninja Corps
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Goblin-King wrote:
A universe where the werewolf looks like a werewolf, the dragon looks like a dragon, the orcs looks like orcs.
But the spiders are herpa derp retarded? I hate to say it, but this is apologist talk...


What else deviates from the (apparently scientific) "right appearance n this game, and look "herpa derp retarded"? Well, I know that turtles don't thriller dance...but they do in this game with slowpokes, herpa derp! At least half the slimes can almost specifically be called herpa derp looking and defiantly don't look like menacing acidic balls like their "supposed" to. They have a zombie that's 90% torso...never seen a human like that, so that's clearly very wrong. You have to really contort a rabbit, anatomically, to walk on two legs. The same goes for platypus...so that's pretty "retarded". Heck, I've never seen an angry bear that walks around on two teeny tiny legs with two huge front paws and looks adorable, what's up with that herpa derp?

Either that...or the entire line has stylized stuff all over that isn't based in reality (you know, all those real dragons and orcs). Or, maybe, they dip in and out of how "realistic" they make a given model at a given time. Maybe picking one particular model to say it's not realistic enough is silly unless you're actually railing against the lack of reality in all the minis across the whole line?


December 4th, 2015, 10:09 pm
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Hi everyone!
First time posting... but I'm currently obsessed with this awesome game :D

As someone who's worked as a Game Designer for the past 3 decades, Spiders are a really interesting/touchy/bizarre subject.
You always have to be very careful when adding spiders to a product, because arachnophobes are a REAL problem. This might sound almost unbelievable to somebody who is only mildly uncomfortable around these little beasties, but some people are SO afraid of spiders that having very realistic models, even bright pink ones, can creep them out! This is NOT a small number of people either, and I suspect that there is quite a crossover with those folks and Soda Pop's target audience. Not sure if that's the reason for their current design, but it was the first thing that occurred to me... switching out a little realism for friendliness on the spiders is a REALLY great idea from a marketing/sales viewpoint.

Secondly though, I really DO like the new spider designs... can't wait to paint them! I think shooting webs from their front is a design choice for a better figure. Having the spider with its butt in the air shooting webs from its backside would look pretty awful imho.


December 4th, 2015, 11:02 pm
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Lizardman wrote:
Did you ever stop and think that maybe they didnt want THEIR spiders to look like every other spider sculpted in this universe?

No, no you didn't because you can only see your own viewpoint as "valid"


Nope, because then they would have used a different name than "spider".

He and I are pretty much on the same page WRT spider anatomy.

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December 5th, 2015, 12:57 am
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GrauGeist wrote:
Lizardman wrote:
Did you ever stop and think that maybe they didnt want THEIR spiders to look like every other spider sculpted in this universe?

No, no you didn't because you can only see your own viewpoint as "valid"


Nope, because then they would have used a different name than "spider".

He and I are pretty much on the same page WRT spider anatomy.


I agree too. I still like them, but yeah magic can change a spiders anatomy, but it isn't a spider anymore. Why don't we call them like spider-beetles or something while they do spin webs from their abdomen(thorax? anyone who knows spiders better, telling me where they spin webs from would be a appreciated) they like store it in their beetle mouths to shoot out at enemies. So they are like magically altered spiders or spider-beetles(A better name would be cool too!)

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December 5th, 2015, 2:10 am
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I just have to laugh at nor being satisfied with the level of realism in a board game that represents a video game that tops the charts out as far as how high it's high fantasy goes. Yeah, lets make sure we dial back the unrealistic things in that. :lol:

Next time make sure the spider minis are just a flat, blank disk. You don't want to misrepresent their size or anything. That wouldn't be like real spiders at all.

I already can't wait for the next update so that the new thing to brew ridiculous complaints about comes along.


December 5th, 2015, 4:19 am
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I'd have to say the only thing that bothers me is that half have six legs and half have eight. Yeah, they should have eight legs (they're spiders, after all, not hugglebugs!), but if the sculptor had gone consistently one way or the other it wouldn't fret me as much. Just feels like sloppy work to me.

If they don't change the sculpt, I'll probably just add an extra pair of legs to all mine. And maybe mod the web-spinning spiders so they have their abdomen raised and are spewing it out the right end. Grosser and funnier.

Huh. Might just switch the two: cut the webs off the ones with upraised legs and use them for whatever the squatting spiders are for, then put the webs on the abdomens of the squatting spiders... Could work.

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December 5th, 2015, 4:39 am
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iamfanboy wrote:
I'd have to say the only thing that bothers me is that half have six legs and half have eight.


Exactly so. And it must be noted that all of the spiders in this art have 8 legs:
Image

I don't like this new critical hit mechanic as I'm worried (in addition to the problems mentioned above of book-keeping and mechanic bloat) that having this rule will break the game balance for a lot of model choices. With it rolling high becomes absolutely the most important thing for models, punishing those figures with low dice rolls but other abilities that make them worth while. Particularly since SPM wishes to continue and build on the Pet and Creep models from FK it seems like a bad move in my opinion.

I like the new dice types a lot more. It's too early to say whether they will really work within the Legends progression mechanics but I think it's good that they have flavour to them. I was worried they would just be like the previous dice but with higher numbers but, by tying in these dice to the light vs darkness conflict that SDE fluff is built around, and by giving them interesting 6th face effects, my doubts have been assuaged.

For number crunchers, the average star rolls of all SDE dice are now as follows:
Blue 0.66 stars
Red 1.16 stars
Green 2.00 stars
Consul 3.16 stars
Goddess 2.66+X/6 stars (where X is the average number of stars a Light result would give)

Hence one Consul dice will give the same number of stars as one green + one red dice (but will not be as beneficial due 6th face effects); and hence the best dice for stars will be a Goddess dice provided that for a given roll X>=3. Working out X is a more complicated mathematical task which I leave for greater arithmaticians.
:P


December 5th, 2015, 8:31 am
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I don't think the critical hit/defense mechanic is too bad. The concerns over low numbers is valid though. But, that's what the play testing that is yet to come is for!

At first blush though, the critical hit rules could pretty easily be leveled out by saying you have to get more than twice the defense stars and at least 5 stars on the attack. That way with a defense (static or rolled) of 0-2 you have the same minimum crit threshold and then just go up from there. The defense rules may not need that threshold though. But, again, that's what play testing is for. The critical defense should defiantly have one of two effects though. Either be optional, or yield loot on a kill. It's different from backlash, which is a consistent thing (and likely stacks with a critical defense). But, it would suck to have it not yield loot and be non-optional when there's something you want to kill for loot, but then roll "too well" on defense against.

Overall, I'm looking forward to the beta and to experimenting and theorizing about all this in full context.


December 5th, 2015, 8:57 am
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iamfanboy wrote:
I'd have to say the only thing that bothers me is that half have six legs and half have eight. Yeah, they should have eight legs (they're spiders, after all, not hugglebugs!), but if the sculptor had gone consistently one way or the other it wouldn't fret me as much. Just feels like sloppy work to me.

If you look at the pictures very closely, you will see that the 2 hind legs are hidden behind the other 6.

Especially if you look at the legs on the side that is not turned towards you, you will count 4 legs on each side.


Last edited by Teowulff on December 5th, 2015, 9:18 am, edited 1 time in total.



December 5th, 2015, 9:16 am
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Lizardman wrote:
Why do you always "assume" the sculptors or artists got it wrong GK? Remember, they are moving in a direction that THEY want to, not what a single customers wants, some folks gonna hate it, some gonna love it, some wont give a !SODA!, but at the end of the day, this is their product and they will do what they believe is the best for the game/company

Did you ever stop and think that maybe they didnt want THEIR spiders to look like every other spider sculpted in this universe?

No, no you didn't because you can only see your own viewpoint as "valid"

Because the missing saddlebag on the Wolfrider and the missing finger on the Trolls were well considered design choices?
There are normal people making this stuff. Designing the monsters, drawing the pictures, making the sculpts. People make mistakes. They are not perfect gods.

So either the artist didn't know what spiders looked like and just went ahead the best he could anyway...
OR
It was all a well considered plan to make the Crypt Spider look like a realistic cool spider, then make Magus Crawley with 6 legs because people are afraid of realistic spiders, then design the NE spiders with 8 legs anyways to make them distinct from the Magus and wrong mouthparts to be distinct from the Crypt Spider, then for good measure make sure the two NE spiders share the same 3D model except for the web because sometimes different spiders need to look exactly the same?

The easiest explanation is usually the correct one.


Usagi wrote:
Goblin-King wrote:
A universe where the werewolf looks like a werewolf, the dragon looks like a dragon, the orcs looks like orcs.
But the spiders are herpa derp retarded? I hate to say it, but this is apologist talk...


What else deviates from the (apparently scientific) "right appearance n this game, and look "herpa derp retarded"? Well, I know that turtles don't thriller dance...but they do in this game with slowpokes, herpa derp! At least half the slimes can almost specifically be called herpa derp looking and defiantly don't look like menacing acidic balls like their "supposed" to. They have a zombie that's 90% torso...never seen a human like that, so that's clearly very wrong. You have to really contort a rabbit, anatomically, to walk on two legs. The same goes for platypus...so that's pretty "retarded". Heck, I've never seen an angry bear that walks around on two teeny tiny legs with two huge front paws and looks adorable, what's up with that herpa derp?

Either that...or the entire line has stylized stuff all over that isn't based in reality (you know, all those real dragons and orcs). Or, maybe, they dip in and out of how "realistic" they make a given model at a given time. Maybe picking one particular model to say it's not realistic enough is silly unless you're actually railing against the lack of reality in all the minis across the whole line?

A lot of what you describes here is mostly about the cartoony style of the minis. Disproportions IS the style and no one is complaining.
The chimeras are just that... chimeras. Part human, part beast. This is well described in their monster type and the lore. So yes, they walk on two feet and have hands that can hold weapons.
But they kept all the stuff that make up the particular animals. The Billmen still have the correct tail and duckbill. The Grobbit still has rabbit ears and teeth. There is a reason no one is complaining about these things.
What we are talking about here is if they had just put a dog's snout on the Billmen instead of the bill. Wouldn't you say "wait a minute! A platypus warrior should have a bill"?
No, I guess you wouldn't because "magic" and "we can do whatever we want"...

The Rocktops are actually an excellent example of well executed "magic and whatever we want".
They are a race of rock-based turtles. No, a real turtle shell doesn't remotely look like that, but it's okay because they are rock turtles.
There has been an obvious design choice to make these very distinct from a regular old turtle.
Whether you like the "thriller" pose is an entire different matter (still a legit point though).

The spiders look mostly right, but slightly wrong. If they had wanted to do something special with the spiders they would have emphasized it.
But apparently they are supposed to "just" look like ordinary giant spiders and that is why the mouths and webfaces looks wrong.

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December 5th, 2015, 9:18 am
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its ok coz they are rock turtles? but don't sculpt anything that resides outside of reality? in a FANTASY game based on 8bit and 16bit VIDEOGAMES.

edit-fixed


Last edited by Lizardman on December 5th, 2015, 11:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.



December 5th, 2015, 7:33 pm
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Lizardman wrote:
GK, you are seriously a close minded retard.

its ok coz they are rock turtles? but don't sculpt anything that resides outside of reality? in a FANTASY game based on 8bit and 16bit VIDEOGAMES.

grow a brain.


While I agree that spider demons from another dimension have little need to conform to terrestrial spider anatomy...we also don't need straight up ad hominem attacks. That doesn't do anyone any good.


December 5th, 2015, 8:55 pm
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Lizardman wrote:
....in a FANTASY game based on 8bit and 16bit VIDEOGAMES.


I am only quoting the part worth quoting. The rest has not place on these forums.

But as Lizardman is saying, these sculpts are based on the old-school video games. If I am imagining a spider shooting webs at me in a video game, then I would probably imagine them doing it as they approached me (i.e. from the front), not running towards me and then turning around to shoot it out of their butt at me.

Yes, it is not "proper", but given the theme upon which it is based I think it works.

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December 5th, 2015, 9:29 pm
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I call Rule of Cute in this argumenting about the spiders!

They look cuter like this, therefore, I am fine with it! :D

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December 5th, 2015, 9:57 pm
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Quote:
but don't sculpt anything that resides outside of reality

Said by me, never...

But a work being fantasy (or based on video games) is not a free pass to just do whatever. It has to make sense within it's own boundaries.
If a fantasy universe has no rules, coherence or consistency, it's a poorly designed universe. Simple as that...
(I think the SDE universe is very well written btw, they just mess up everything spider related for some reason)

The mistakes on the spiders can not be attributed to the models being simplified cartoony creatures.
They don't contribute to the concept either. They look almost right, but still fall short.
So far the mistakes are not reflected in the lore either. It's a Shadow spinner, not a "Web Spitter". It's a Crawler, not an "Ant Head Spider".

Without inventing some story about them being mutated, magic chaos spiders, nothing indicates SPM were trying to put a twist on these spiders.
That's where the rocktops came in, as an example of something normal (turtles) but with a twist (rock shells).
The Crypt Spider has 8 legs and a clearly visible spinneret correctly placed on the back of it's abdomen.
6 legged spiders and mouth spinners contradicts what has already been established, for no particular purpose.

I guess that last sentence is what it all boils down to. Something was established, then contradicted with no benefits.
If the Magus had 8 legs and the Nether Elf spiders had regular palps and chelicera and shot web from the right end no one would think it was weird.
But for some reason some people are fiercely against the Magus getting 8 legs...?
Now we have to make rationalizations to explain it instead.

Just out of curiosity... Which old school games actually has spiders that shoot web? I can think of lots of spiders hanging from threads and spiders that just crawl at you.

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December 5th, 2015, 10:29 pm
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Meh, I like the spiders. So there is that. If you don't like them, don't use them. I don't really like the Rock Tops, at all actually. But, I still play with them because why not? They are cute little chibi spiders, it does not bother me that are not correct when it comes to being actual spiders.

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December 5th, 2015, 10:51 pm
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Goblin-King - behind that David Bowie avatar are you really a sentient arachnid? That would explain a lot! ;)

Seriously though, I hear what you are saying but I am not sure we're arguing different points really. You're saying that they don't make sense, I (among others) am (are) saying that I (we) don't care, they look cool.

And for the record, I cannot recall any video game that had the spiders shooting webs, but I was implying that if there were one, I would imagine that the webs would come from their front ends, rather than the back. But then that's just me.

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December 5th, 2015, 11:50 pm
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Spazzfist wrote:
GrauGeist wrote:
Spiders
Image
These are nice, and they actually have the correct number of eyes, legs and body segments to be spiders! Too bad they're spraying a fully constructed orb web from the wrong end.... Also, the mouth parts are completely wrong - beetle-like rather than pedipalp fangs... :evil:



The way I think about it, is that this is a fantasy universe with werewolves, kobolds and all manner of strange monsters, animal, plant, undead, you name it!

So who is to say that the spiders from this reality don't have more beetle-like mandibles and spray webs from their mouth?

I, for one, love the models and would love to try out some rules to make an all spider level with the Crypt Spider being some kond of Shelob mini-boss!


This right here, I completely agree with where your coming from. People who know better have a harder time suspending disbelief and i suspect that's goblin king and grau's issue here.


December 6th, 2015, 2:25 am
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Here is my $0.02 on the matter of spiders ... (mainly the web spitting variety)

Spiders are hard, the whole web goes out one end and the eyes and fangs are at the other presents a bunch of problems come time to sculpt...

Do you ...

A) Sculpt a realistic spider that will draw criticism/confusion because if it is performing both a web and a bite attack they 'should' be in different directions? (also which way should the spider face when attacking? (I know that due to the lack of facing rules in SDE this isn't a big issue but some people will have issues with this)

B) Sculpt a less realistic spider where all the attacks originate from the front, and then cop criticism because it's unrealistic.

C) Pose the spider in such a way that it is anatomically correct, and all the attacks face the same direction but due to the chibi proportions of the spider looks incorrect or awkward?

D) Same as C but ditch the Chibi thing and then upset people because the style dosen't match the feel of the game (Chibi)

There are probably a bunch of other options which some will consider better and others will dislike, Even reacting to feedback has it's own issues, do you change the way things are done, because people arn't happy because you may find more people unhappy with the fact that you changed your approach.

As for legs, sone time the sheer number can be awkward or people may forget that a spider isn't a bug, (or there may be other considerations)

My biggest issue with the web is not where it comes from but that it's solid, but I also realise it would be difficult to make it otherwise.

In the end, spiders are tricky, do I think this is the best possible sculpt, no, is it close enough that I'll be happy to use it in play yes, but I do think that another go at the art and sculpting process could result in what I would consider a much better mini.

I feel consistency has value, but there may be other considerations impacting on this, so I'll happily say while I'd prefer all the spiders to be 8 legged, chibi versions of anatomically sensible spiders, I can accept that this might not be the best due to factors I don't understand.


December 6th, 2015, 2:41 am
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@GoblinKing, they all appear to have 8 legs. The "6" legged ones appear to have 4 legs on the back, so I would suggest it is just the angle they are rendered on.

Could they do the web out of clear plastic on a different sprue? Or would that go against their latest "premade mini" concept?


December 6th, 2015, 2:48 am
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