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Mini-Boss
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Okay, just re-read the statement they made..
"We are in discussion with multiple companies about an acquisition of our studio. This includes assistance in fulfilling our obligations."
that isn't really selling the company or license up for bid.. basically, and this is a bit tricker, SPM is the studio that makes the sculpts and stuff.. ND is the publishing company that publishes both SPM stuff and other stuff.. it was created after they stopped working with external publishers. but at times it seams to get a... VERY blurrly as there are things which are credited as ND which seam to be SPM.. yeah, things blurrly..

but if you read how it's worded with 'Acquisition of our studio" alone with "assistance in fulfilling our obligations" more then taking over the obligations, seams to hint this strongly,

It's no where near the level of say, Victor Fox (the king of Comics!)

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November 30th, 2018, 6:48 pm
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yes, things are blurry b/w SPM and ND. SPM is the creator of the SDL KS, but ND is the publishing company created afterwards that is the creator of some of the later KS and is the current 'face' of the company (since they consolidated down to the ND website only, but these forums are still marked SPM).

It's, i think, purposefully vague.


November 30th, 2018, 8:43 pm
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well, at first, SPM did come first. that is known.
then when they decided to do their own publishing, ND was created. some books/accounts are spilt into two parts..

but over time, they decided to kinda merge the two together as it was probably much easier. but things are still a but vague.. maybe purposefully vague but that to me kinda seams to have 'sinister' themes.. I think it's probably more they are transferring to ND fully, but some stuff, due to some factors maybe, are still SPM.. newer stuff is pretty much purely ND..

Like when D&D were first starting in the UK, TSR licensed there stuff to a new company who called themselves Games Workshop. Then over time, GW did not only there own stuff but decided since they weren't just shipping in the US stuff now, TSR decided it was cheaper to get GW to print there own books in the UK for UK sale (saves on import costs too), then GW said "Hey, we got all our own stuff set up here, why just do other peoples work?) and started to do there own stuff.. there was the great 'eavry Metal and Citadel which got merged (and in some cases, brought by) GW and... then got screwed up.. okay, a lot of the modern GW Citadel paints aren't too bad but.. they range is crap compared to what it used to be.. very few companies do a good rich Blue, or the old Hobgoblin orange etc.. and of course, while some collectors like them. Metal figures are much lower quality then even plastic.. yet cost more.. so why bother with them? part from some people think weight=value ¬_¬;

anyway..

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November 30th, 2018, 10:14 pm
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sleepy_laughter wrote:
It's, i think, purposefully vague.


I disagree. I think that the vagueness going on here is an accident. But there are a lot of little bits and pieces that weren't clear, mostly because the story isn't as clean as it is usually presented. I don't have inside information, but here's my take:


Ninja Division was the name that the SPM folks used when they were working on someone else's game (we see it come up in a few projects prior to the CMON/SPM split- but not for SPM games). It might have existed due to a contract that they had with CMON, but it might have been for other reasons.

Ninja Division back then was always supporting a different company (ND, in essence, just make minis for other companies' games- like Megaman or Robotech- or more recently Ghostbusters+MIB). They weren't publishing those games. They may even have gone uncredited on some projects (I wouldn't be surprised if some other IDW games had uncredited ND minis).


When SPM decided to split with CMON, they started using their established Ninja Division brand as their publisher (in essence, they were replacing CMON with themselves by turning their existing company into a publisher). But even when Ninja Division became a publisher, they kept taking jobs supporting other companies with miniatures- so ND has ended up meaning two very different things.

And with the same three people in charge of both companies, it is easy to see why there would be confusion. But I don't think it was a shell game (they haven't hid the fact that they're in charge of both companies- although it is very unclear how much the two companies share resources).

From a customer perspective, the two labels seem to be about how involved they are. Sodapop is only used when everything is done in house (which is why the Siege of the Citadel crossover is credited as Ninja Division.

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December 3rd, 2018, 11:15 pm
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Just about through the five stages of grief.
Denied the project wasn’t completely kaput earlier this week.Through that.
I’ve been angry the whole two years (yes, jumped on late).
I got all my models out for the first time in over a year. Thought about playing a game. Punted that idea and put everything away. Feel like that’s depression.
I’m at 100% certainty I’m getting nothing, and the product is currently a zombie.

So it’s on to Bargaining for me: What are you hoping we get?

Personally, either something plastic, or something I can put on a 3D printer.


December 4th, 2018, 3:42 pm
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SuperHappyTime wrote:
Just about through the five stages of grief.
Denied the project wasn’t completely kaput earlier this week.Through that.
I’ve been angry the whole two years (yes, jumped on late).
I got all my models out for the first time in over a year. Thought about playing a game. Punted that idea and put everything away. Feel like that’s depression.
I’m at 100% certainty I’m getting nothing, and the product is currently a zombie.

So it’s on to Bargaining for me: What are you hoping we get?

Personally, either something plastic, or something I can put on a 3D printer.



I'm hoping to get a job, if I would have known that the project (and all the other products) were on hold for...maybe forever...then I would have used that money on other things, things that would have kept my mind occupied through this jobless depression. :'(


December 4th, 2018, 10:27 pm
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i have the same understanding as @odinsgrandson re: SPM vs. ND, which is in line with what they've communicated. But individuals will always twist their interpretation of reality to fit their narrative.


December 5th, 2018, 2:59 am
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I probably didn't understand the matter as well as I thought cause I didn't think ND existed until around the side the spilt from CONM or whatever they were. I know the companies have some legal differences though..

and yes Sleepy, individuals will always twist reality to fit their narrative.. sadly that is part of life, as there is no such thing as a Bias free person but it's often changed facts too much..

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December 5th, 2018, 8:12 am
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slightly unrelated kinda, but I wanna ask this:

in my hay days, a lot of miniature board game 'starter' or 'base' sets (now core sets I believe) which were designed for add-ons, only gave you a limited number of figures with the starter set which were made of metal or plastic. Often it would be a small set of 6 heroes or something, and all the monsters and enemies would be card standees. You could then BUY the plastic/metal figures to upgrade if you wanted. This allowed the starter set to be great for starters that wanted to be able to buy the game at a small price and play.

Now, SPM/ND did this to a much smaller degree. You got card tokens for health etc with the base set, they later released an optional add-on for people that wanted plastic figures. With Forgotten king, Pets were going to be Tokens with optional add-on but due to stretch goal, they came as plastic. the new SDE 2.0 goes back to the idea of keeping the base set price down with Card Tokens with possibly optional upgrades later on.

But the practice of doing this method, is still done. Maybe it's only an English thing but talking with a friend who is more into games workshop stuff these days (though not happy at all with some recent stuff over the last few years which lead to extremely poor quality stuff, mass wiping out of other things etc) it's still done in stuff and not a bad idea. It goes give great entry.

I'm not giving an idea or suggestion that SD:E 2.0 should be like that.. But I'm adding an idea that what if they released a cut-down cheaper set.. to get a nice starter set out.. so kinda like this:

-> SD Starter Set - 4 Plastic heroes, 4 tiles, 2 Warband tokens sets, 1 Miniboss token, 1 Dungeon Boss Token. Rules for Arcade and Classic mode (maybe only starter versions). This could be a pretty cheap set.. £20 mark putting it in the range of most standard board games
-> SD: Explore Core Set - 6 Plastic Heroes, 6 Tiles, 2 Warband Plastic sets, 1 Mini-boss Plastic, 1 Dungeon Boss Plastic. Rules for Classic Mode only (Full) - This is the standard 2.0 set
-> SD: Arcade Core Set - 6 Plastic Heroes, 6 Tiles, 2 Warband Plastic sets, 1 Mini-boss Plastic, 1 Dungeon Boss Plastic. Rules for Arcade mode only (Full) - Like Classic, the standard one set for release

All three of them feature unique Heroes. the 2 Warbands, 1 mini-boss and Dungeon boss in Starter set aren't the same as Explore or Arcade but are set for Later plastic release.

Then the next tier levels are the 'Add-on' range.. mostly lets so examples:
-> Frostbyte Reach Level-Set
-> Pet Parade Add-on
-> etc

then you have sets like
-> Dungeon boss with Creeps
-> Warband
-> Hero/mini boss

While some companies (and a lot of 'average' board games) can have totally card figures, I think the better ones have some Plastic, if only the heroes. It gives a nice cheap intro set, can raise interest and money to go later sets.

By the looks of some things, I believe gloomhaven is doing that method at the moment.. D&D used to use it, Games Workshop did for Both Warhammer and Warhammer 40K etc. I can probably think of some more..

I think ND have thought about this idea in the past but kinda given up with there card games like that way of the fighter, as it's all card figures and stuff, but didn't one KS have plastic replacements as an add-on?

anyway.. it's not as crap an idea as when D&D was released with 'pre-painted figures'... anyone remember that? ^_^

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December 11th, 2018, 12:52 pm
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Gloomhaven isn't doing a "minis later or separate" business model. Gloomhaven is created by a guy who doesn't understand why anyone likes minis so much, so he used standees instead. The minis that exist for Gloomhaven have some very amateurish flaws.

I haven't seen a 'mostly card' starter set for a long time. Not since Incursion.

There is a big difference of audience between tabletop miniatures wargames and miniatures board games. With the board game, there's an expectation that the core box is a 'complete' experience in ways that a 'starter set' isn't.

I think that SPM had the right idea with making a cheaper starter (just three spawn points instead of four or five, no creeps or pets, etc).

Right now, their problem is that they've announced a new edition- and that kills sales on the old edition. New players are directed to wait- and the waiting has just gone on an on.

I honestly think that if they just packaged the new cards and rulebook as an upgrade for FK, it might help that problem out some.

ManicMan wrote:
I probably didn't understand the matter as well as I thought cause I didn't think ND existed until around the side the spilt from CONM or whatever they were. I know the companies have some legal differences though..

and yes Sleepy, individuals will always twist reality to fit their narrative.. sadly that is part of life, as there is no such thing as a Bias free person but it's often changed facts too much..


You should probably keep in mind that people don't necessarily do this intentionally. New information that your brain aquires is run through an existing belief system to be interpreted.

Basically, they feel that SPM/ND has burned them, so when looking at the facts, interpret them in the way that portrays SPM/ND in the most negative light.

Personally, I think that all of their actions can be attributed to poor business decision making and denial about how poorly things were going for them.

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Last edited by odinsgrandson on December 11th, 2018, 7:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.



December 11th, 2018, 6:46 pm
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fair enough ^_^ I don't know too much about gloomhaven but noticed the plastic heroes with card enemies like some old days games.

I couldn't agree that all of their actions are poor business decisions cause.. well, it'll be tricky to work out the list of 'what are there actions' for a start.. deciding they needed to delay due to Deke's heart problems? that was an action but doesn't sound like a bad decision... taking the project to KS when they believed most of it was complete? well.. taking anything to KS is a bad decision so I can't argue against that one.. allowing one person to shoulder too much of the work load? yep, that is a bad business decision but coming from a couple of places which run with pretty much 2 members of staff and really need more, I can say that it isn't always done through choice.. but fair enough.

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December 11th, 2018, 6:52 pm
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ManicMan wrote:
fair enough ^_^ I don't know too much about gloomhaven but noticed the plastic heroes with card enemies like some old days games.

I couldn't agree that all of their actions are poor business decisions cause.. well, it'll be tricky to work out the list of 'what are there actions' for a start.. deciding they needed to delay due to Deke's heart problems? that was an action but doesn't sound like a bad decision... taking the project to KS when they believed most of it was complete? well.. taking anything to KS is a bad decision so I can't argue against that one.. allowing one person to shoulder too much of the work load? yep, that is a bad business decision but coming from a couple of places which run with pretty much 2 members of staff and really need more, I can say that it isn't always done through choice.. but fair enough.



Yeah- I think I agree with you. I think that most of their choices looked like the right move at the time, but they have clearly culminated in a massive problem.


But I think that they increased their company spending at a time when the company's flaship game was off the table. That's how they ended up throwing so much of their budget at company upkeep stuff.


The other mistake they made is to kick Rail Raiders out the door instead of prioritizing partial fulfillment of SDL. They desperately need a core box for their top game on the retail shelves, but right now all theyv'e got is Arena.



All together, I think these were understandable mistakes. I can see how they'd have looked like the right move at the time, but the cost has been really steep.

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December 11th, 2018, 7:25 pm
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By the way- Gloomhaven is a very good game, but some of its praise comes from the fact that it was labeled as a "euro" rather than dungeon crawler. It was deliberately marketed towards gamers who don't usually play Dungeon Crawlers, so there are a lot of people playing it that praise it for doing the normal things that every DC does.

It also does some cool things that are unique (the card activation system is cool, and the deck building aspects are neat) but then the road events are like worse versions of the ones from Descent/Shadows of Brimstone/Kingdom Death/Warhammer Quest/Stuffed Fables/Folklore/etc.

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December 11th, 2018, 7:33 pm
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yeah.. I think there are major mistakes like them.. well, not major persay.. as I've said before, there can be something to be said about the old gamblers ruin.. (win a few games, get a nice amount of money, then parly that into bigger and bigger bets which may pay off but have an equal chance of failing and you lose ALOT).

yeah, they need to get some stuff out.. of course, in the uk I've NEVER seen them for sale in person.. only a couple of online places but still ^_^;

which is kinda one reason I was ball parking (I think that's the right term) the idea of the stripped down starter set.. works well for some companies..

oh and it's probably an good game.. the only descent I know died a number of years back and is now called 'overload' while the company that took the name are doing.. something which is just.. err... <insert large word of discontent>.. as for Warhammer Quest.. never a player.. too modern.. and I think they have just killed it ^_^

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December 11th, 2018, 7:37 pm
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I hate the road events so much. i joked all that happens is that wolves ravage you and you just barely don't die on the road b/f a dungeon. And it happens way more than I think it statistically should =P.

I agree, Gloomhaven is not a miniatures game and caters to a different crowd. It has a lot of good things going for it, but the biggest claim to fame I think is that you get a lot of legacy content for the $$$ and it has a certain amount of wow factor. I'm very interested to see how the Asmodee video game adaptation pans out. I would probably personally prefer to buy/read a novel rather than invest the full amount of time to finish the game in terms of efficiency, but that's me (I read movie spoilers too).

As for the standee vs. miniatures - there are games/KS that I've noticed have been doing that. It certainly creates a lower cost entry, but it can also undermine the sales and potentially the identity of the game as a miniature tabletop game. Likewise, it can undermine the cost of expansions. WOTF is doing standees and will have miniatures for the fighters (maybe if they ever deliver) and I expect those will have SKUs and potentially available post KS (again if we ever get there).

A lot depends on the buyer. Do you consider miniatures a premium version of a game component? You could certain play with just bases with pictures on them or standees, but then that won't hit the hobbyist/collector/folks that use the minis for their own games/proxy.

That was what surprised me the most coming back to SDE this year was how much other folks were buying into SDE expressly to NOT PLAY SDE. So a game with standees would potentially lose those sales b/c you've now diverted funds to creating this additional product for a different market. That's more SKUs for companies to stock, etc.

My personal opinion is that they could've maybe should've broken down SDE even more so the base game is heroes vs. spawns & mini boss. I think they would've been able to hit the $50 price point based on what they've made available with warbands and Ninja Ambush (I think SDE Arena is way overpriced for what you get and Arena sales seem to agree). Dungeon bosses are expansions that come with their own MMC and boss challenge cards to expand the game. Of course this'd need probably another revision of the rules which we don't need, but it'd be nice if you could expand/extend the game more organically than the current single MMC track for classic and arcade that are still themed after the included dungeon bosses.


December 11th, 2018, 11:51 pm
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sleepy_laughter wrote:
I agree, Gloomhaven is not a miniatures game...


Well, it is a miniatures game when I play it:

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image


But I agree that Gloomhaven's success is in part due to the fact that it could cross over and introduce Dungeon Crawlers to a crowd that normally doesn't play those. Some GH players seem to know so very little about what is standard for a DC and what is super innovative and unique to GH.

And though it isn't my very top game, Gloomhaven is a very good game.

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December 14th, 2018, 5:23 pm
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odinsgrandson wrote:
Gloomhaven isn't doing a "minis later or separate" business model. Gloomhaven is created by a guy who doesn't understand why anyone likes minis so much, so he used standees instead.


Perhaps you're privy to a conversation with or comment from Isaac that I've never heard about, but he's seemed pretty clear in stating that he used monster standees based on otherwise prohibitive costs. The pure "standees only" version was available only to Kickstarter backers looking to save a few bucks, and the retail version has miniatures for the player characters. Including an additional 240 enemy miniatures would cause the price of a game that's already over $100(second printing forward) to absolutely skyrocket.

That all said, there's a part of me that's been recently considering a look at the posted art, to see how realistically I could do a decent(ish) looking standees version of the many miniatures we will likely never receive. I mean... It'd be better than nothing, right? ...right?

As for the buyout vaguery... I do think it's intentional. IMHO there's been a discreet pattern in communications that just becomes more and more noticable: Cadice and crew are being excruciatingly careful to say as little as can possibly be said in a verifiable public record. It's easy to say "That's not me" regarding a social networking account on Facebook (or you know, just delete or edit the comment, as appears to have occurred already if I'm not mistaken). Keeping things vague, saying that they're exploring a purchase option, and that discussions/negotiations include potential assistance in fulfilling backer obligations, means that you can later say "Well, we discussed it, and nobody would buy us out under those circumstances."

I've seen too much. I've seen bits behind the curtain over the last few years, had info shared with me that probably shouldn't have been on multiple occasions. I would have to mentally block direct statements/slips from employees to have any more faith than this in the company/project. I've said it probably dozens of times in this thread alone, but I'll say it again "I would sincerely love to be proven wrong about this." (because that would mean actually getting the product we were promised.)


December 15th, 2018, 5:08 am
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Standie versions of the SD ones are very easy and I can do you up a set of you want without much problem..

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December 15th, 2018, 10:32 am
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