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 Legends Update Thread 
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Danteire wrote:
Because it doesn't add up! So SDE covered about 2 years of paying bills....what happened to all the profit they would make from existing lines at that time?



They torpedoed their biggest product line with the Kickstarter (unintentionally, sure). I'm not sure how many times I've talked to someone interested in SDE and i told them to just wait for the new edition. We know about some of the planned releases that never materialized.

When you're in a diversified business like this, the biggest line often supports others. I'm sure that SDE accounted for well over half of ND's yearly revenue (it could very well be as much as 80% or more). Right now, their top product is probably Doomseeker (of all things).


Now, you're right in saying that the account we have is incomplete (since it is only meant to account for the original KS sum, and doesn't account for PM funds or regular retail sales). But that doesn't mean that the story it is telling is completely inaccurate.

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November 16th, 2018, 6:51 pm
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Minion
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It's only completely obvious that they started working on new unrelated projects while operating under the Legends budget -if we give them the benefit of the doubt, then they hopefully intended to put some of that back based on all the pools of money they would surely be drowning in when these projects popped off.

The problem is that, at best, that mentality has you constantly funding the new thing by borrowing from an old thing. When the new thing doesn't make as much as you'd hoped, you don't have enough to put back what you borrowed. So you think you just have to do it again, but then that doesn't pay off the dividends you expected. I honestly don't know how they convinced themselves that "Way of the Fighter" was ever going to be a critical success, it's just not a best-selling genre. Honestly, even in video games, it seems like most fighting games get marked down pretty quickly to make room for new titles.

From what we know of RRI, it appears to have cost quite a bit more to produce than they anticipated, and it clearly hasn't been a fantastic seller either (at least not anywhere near suggested retail). I'd be genuinely curious if they ever have to make fiance's publicly known, just how much did RRI make, and just how much of the Legends overhead period paid for making it?

I think Cadice genuinely believed that after Legends, he could replicate similar success a few months later. So the idea of wasting some time and overhead didn't seem like a big deal. Then later, we got "Way of the Fighter" which is a miniatures game specifically changed to replace miniatures at the last minute if I've ever seen one. Cardboard standees, from a company whose strength has been highly detailed minis? In retrospect this should have been a warning sign. Seems like someone realized that they weren't making enough money back and needed to cut corners to make the next project more profitable.

Eventually, this sort of internal "robbing Peter to pay Paul" method catches up. Things inevitably get choked up somewhere along the line, even if you might have been really successful at first. I really just don't think they were all that successful with the first attempt, and rather than learning from it, they doubled/tripled down on more projects to try and compensate for the others.

These new projects should have started covering overhead expenses, and perhaps even reimbursed prior project budgets for pre-dinner Dev time. And maybe that was the plan. Based on what the AG letter says, and Cadice has clearly confirmed its legitimate himself over on FB, these new projects didn't have the necessary remaining funds to keep paying the bills. At a point in the letter, he refers to newer projects being exhausted somewhere in 2017, and explains that they had to start digging all the way back into SDE funds again. That's telling, because it indicates where the company is, and has been, for nearly a year now. We've been led on for the last twelve months. When they already knew they were digging into the funds needed for manufacturing and additional development. That's where things start looking a lot shadier, a lot less "oops" accidental, and potentially a lot more like something that one might see in a legal proceeding.

Not suggesting any actions, or trying to rally people for anything. Just really considering the publicized data that's been confirmed.


November 18th, 2018, 6:47 am
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Sounds about right. Can also add on that a large part of them spending SD:L cash to keep the lights on was the failure of NAS in 2016, which they probably hoped would do gangbusters and flush them with money. And we all know how that went, and the almost incessant clearance sales on Miniature Market and such!

Quote:
At a point in the letter, he refers to newer projects being exhausted somewhere in 2017, and explains that they had to start digging all the way back into SDE funds again.


This is probably the crux point that sunk them! They decide to push 2 unproven games (one which didn't even clear $100,000 on KS after a relaunch and backed with crossover SDE minis) instead of their 2.0 relaunch of their main money maker brand....so what, they would only have 1 group of KS backers angry a them instead of 3?

Were they hoping Relic Knights 2.0 would do a cool million like the original and fund everythings production....but barely made a third of that!

Ditto for the Starfinder deal, just slap out some minis (no nasty rules to need to be rewritten) and roll in the cash! What could go wrong?


November 18th, 2018, 11:30 am
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problem is you need to have a bit of a diverse income to be solid, but it is always a risk.. and I've said this before so pay no notice ^_^

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November 18th, 2018, 12:11 pm
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For those that KS the Siege of the Citadel, a screenshot today of the Chibi card, with the note:

"Here's a couple of example cards from the Super Dungeon Explore Chibi Warband Add On. I can confirm we have all the print files and miniatures files so we're good to go for production and not waiting on anything. "

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/27 ... ts/2330162


November 18th, 2018, 2:30 pm
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I think it's especially cute that so many backers are waiting for or expecting an update on the Kickstarter page. The only scenarios in which that will happen are:
•If Cadice actually gets some kind of miracle investment (he won't, the risk/reward ratio on this is so poor that a third party's potential investment would be far better spent just making a brand new property)
•If Cadice finally either completes some sneaky trick or deal to try and escape his responsibility on this one (selling the intellectual assets, filing bankruptcy, etc.)

Basically, if we get an update on the project page, it's either going to be incredibly vague, or it's going to be a 'final' update long after the ink has dried on things we haven't been told about beforehand.

So why make comments or even pseudo-updates on Facebook? People have hypothesized that it's "because people on the project page are so negative, and poor old Cadice just can't deal with it"... Honestly, that notion is insulting, to us, and to Cadice. He's a big boy, and that's not it at all. Cadice has opted to post updates or info of any kind only in places where he can deny, edit, or delete it. Telling backers verbally at an event that an update is coming. Saying similar on Facebook, or even suggesting the financial position of his company or the project -he knows that he can just delete it there, and based on the Kickstarter comments, we can follow at least a few occasions where he's done so before. He's posting only to places where he believes he can take his words back without risk of them returning.

Whether you think this thing is over or are still holding out hope, it's probably a good idea to start taking screen shots of anything you see him posting online. You never know what's going to be altered or outright deleted later.


November 19th, 2018, 9:37 am
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GOOD NEWS ON THE SOTC FRONT!

Modiphius confirmed (in a KS update) that they need nothing else from ND in order to make and deliver the crossover minis. No ND's financial situation (whether or not Cadice's "good news on the way" ever materializes).

Those miniatures have not been produced yet (the SotC Kickstarter is delivering in two waves, and the SDE minis are part of the second).


This is really good news for me, since I probably ordered more SotC chibis than anyone (I ordered enough to play the core game with all chibis if I only make a few).

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November 19th, 2018, 4:57 pm
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the SOTC news was … two posts up ^_^;
and.. boy, bad designs.. but then, if you are into that stuff I guess okay... completely unrelated here through really...

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November 19th, 2018, 5:34 pm
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Well there's no new news from Legends. Right now, we're waiting for John Cadice to post up the potentially good news he's been talking about, or for almost anything to happen.

John Cadice seems optimistic, but if the news he is talking about were set in stone, he'd just announce it already. It is possible that they're just negotiating finer points on a contract that is pretty much a sure deal at this point, but it is also possible that he's just really optimistic and doesn't really have anyone interested yet.


- I honestly really like the miniature designs for the SotC stuff (less thrilled with the art, but that's fine). I did play Siege of the Citadel back in the day, so I might have a touch of nostalgia interacting with that. There was a concern that ND's financial problems could impede the delivery of these crossover minis, but it now looks like that won't be the case.

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November 19th, 2018, 6:19 pm
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fair enough ^_^

I could make a couple of points but pointless ^_^ and I couldn't make them well enough to make them with a point so we have to wait and see again.

again, fair enough about the designs. the game is... probably far too modern for my to have any nostaligic views on it or anything so, I don't have any of that.. and I know of some projects that ND is just doing the sculpts for, not the manufacture (with the evil IDW, with the book company etc), and never had any problem, nor have any problem now with there staff and freelance sculpt designers on the whole. some designs I wouldn't do quite that way myself, and of course not happy with 'pre-assembled' stuff but, sculpts are normally pretty !SODA! solid.

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November 19th, 2018, 6:51 pm
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I like the Sotc sde art, even i've never played Sotc, i find it kindda cool and like that it's different from the normal sde art

nice to know that mophidious will be the one manufacturing the miniatures.


November 20th, 2018, 2:10 pm
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TheHandsomeDan wrote:
I think it's especially cute that so many backers are waiting for or expecting an update on the Kickstarter page. The only scenarios in which that will happen are:
•If Cadice actually gets some kind of miracle investment (he won't, the risk/reward ratio on this is so poor that a third party's potential investment would be far better spent just making a brand new property)
•If Cadice finally either completes some sneaky trick or deal to try and escape his responsibility on this one (selling the intellectual assets, filing bankruptcy, etc.)

Basically, if we get an update on the project page, it's either going to be incredibly vague, or it's going to be a 'final' update long after the ink has dried on things we haven't been told about beforehand.

So why make comments or even pseudo-updates on Facebook? People have hypothesized that it's "because people on the project page are so negative, and poor old Cadice just can't deal with it"... Honestly, that notion is insulting, to us, and to Cadice. He's a big boy, and that's not it at all. Cadice has opted to post updates or info of any kind only in places where he can deny, edit, or delete it. Telling backers verbally at an event that an update is coming. Saying similar on Facebook, or even suggesting the financial position of his company or the project -he knows that he can just delete it there, and based on the Kickstarter comments, we can follow at least a few occasions where he's done so before. He's posting only to places where he believes he can take his words back without risk of them returning.

Whether you think this thing is over or are still holding out hope, it's probably a good idea to start taking screen shots of anything you see him posting online. You never know what's going to be altered or outright deleted later.


Thoughts about this:
If they have filed bankruptcy, how long could they keep that a secret?
Can they even file for bankruptcy? It was my understanding that they never had any debt (minus the guarantees from KS)
If they do file for bankruptcy, there is a certain point at which they have to start selling things (usually after a restructuring), rights to certain things (like SDE) included.
As of this point, if they aren’t generating enough revenue to keep the lights on, they are using whatever money is left to do that.
(Aside, this is what is happening at my church. We’ve been told increase tithes, because big donors have left, but we need to start cutting budget, and need to do it ASAP, because our hand will be forced before too long)

Final thought: The owners don’t want to give up the SDE license, and is why they are pursuing investors rather than buyers. I’ll make this clear, they probably need to hand over the keys before they drive the car over the cliff. If it goes to a judge, he won’t hand the keys off to anyone that the rest of us want to have, because it means goodbye pledge, goodbye product.


November 28th, 2018, 12:57 am
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kinda.

from what is known, they probably do have a bit of debt right now. They want to get SDE and SDL etc out, despite some people's comments. Due to things like the delay due to feedback which lead to the revamp in rules, heart issues and not giving as much leeway as turned out was needed, more money then expected was needed and this lead to some problems and they are having to generate the extra money needed however they can. In order to do this, they have let go of a few staff members, changed to a smaller office etc.

and yep, they don't want to give up the license. They want to get SD 2.0 released and to get back on their feet.

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November 28th, 2018, 8:44 am
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Either way, I'm still rooting for them. Several members of my local gaming group, including myself are huge fans of their games. Would be cool to get the new stuff eventually. But what we have now is more than enough for us. :)


November 28th, 2018, 11:04 am
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I kinda wish they would slightly improve commutation. I know the KS is kinda beyond help, but even something via an official source on this message board, even if slightly vague, would be nice.. I know there are some.. obstacles in the way, and that you should never really reveal inside information on deals until it's pretty much a done thing (the last thing you need is when you are trying to make a deal with another company, is a leak which will easily derail the whole deal. That has ruined many things from intercompany deals, to peace talks.

Though it would be nice for something like: "Trying hard to get X released, in talks with companies, looking good so far, next report in 2 weeks time". even that brief little thing would be nice. then 2 weeks time "talks still underway, good progress so far, next report in 2 weeks time". simple, brief, better then nothing...

if on the KS, tons of morning and people trying to screw others out of money (yeah, if I back something and it falls through and I lose the money, I'm not pleased but it's the risk.. it's in the T&C. If it's falls through cause people who are moaning want it to fall and everyone lose there money. that's Malice against not only the company, but everyone else involved in backing. The company has said it'll take it's own fair share of abuse, but I have never said I will accept abuse against me. I'll take a fair share when it's against something I've done, but paying money for some goods isn't really something I'm happy about taking abuse for ^_^ Without good reason.

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November 28th, 2018, 11:51 am
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Sorry if I sounded a little harsh at the end of my last comment. I really am rooting for the SDE product line. It’s a great product (hence, why I can see why they don’t want to give up the license), but I think it’s been horribly mismanaged and is why it’s in the predicament it’s in.

I guess I should go into why I say the product has been mismanaged: Where are the sculpts/models? Yes, a big piece of the delay was the heart issues and redesign, but that shouldn’t have stopped the sculpt making and plastic production, only the paper copy and cards.

This is why I lost faith in the company. I see the answer is five, but all I have are two twos to add. And my faith wouldn’t be hard to get back. It’s definitely back the moment a package of something arrive at my door (no matter how tiny), but I might be tempted back if I see that the models do exist, and there is some way they can get them to me.


November 28th, 2018, 3:38 pm
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i didn't see as it harsh ^_^

sculpts are mostly digital and some pretty good quality images of them have been seen.

the redesign DOES and they have stated it does, interfere with plastic making. Like a lot of companies these days, the Factory group that SPM/ND worked with (and are probably working with a different one that does the same) is a all-in-one group. Part of the group does the mold making, another part pours the plastic in and makes the miniatures, which get put to another part for putting the figures together (shame we can't remove that part ^_^), while this is being done, another part prints the cards and the boxes, and molds the plastic inserts, then they are all put together as a final produce, which is shipped to SPM/ND Warehouse, from there they put the orders out. In some cases, as was planned with the campaign, instead of going straight to the SPM/ND warehouse, it's going to there various hubs around the world and then to the customers, instead of from China to North America, to places around the world.

IF the factory group didn't supply this feature, you would have to order from a bunch of different factories, all pieces sent to your warehouse, you would have to store a lot more while you put them all together and ship them off. Via the group doing it, you not only get a nice discount and cheaper production (you think ordering boxes from one company, figures from another, cards from a third etc, would be as cheap as all together? then add shipping costs of a bunch of packages instead of a larger lump sum. combined shipping is pretty much always better).

anyway.. If they were somehow able to say "Hey, just make the figures for now and have them taking up space in your warehouse for months while we wait for the rest' is gonna be bother pricy and really annoying for the manufactures who don't like loads of other companies stock wasting there space. It wouldn't be very good for SPM/ND either to have too much stock that they can't do much with just laying about.. we kinda see this partly now and they are dealing with it.

Oh then there is the option of getting all the backers to pay more (cause the amount of shipping is a bit of a pain) for the figures now, cards later. While we could print our own cards, even temps which some people hate using, it's... not really a good thing.. it also wouldn't help anything much as they would have stock they can't sell. They did say in the past, like with the FK KS, they would include the boaster figures in the bitey box, which normally means without box, but the boxes are possible to supply afterwards or something, but sending out figures without any cards?... it's fair enough idea but... it would only work for backers, not for the long term since you can't sell the stock, and they wouldn't have only the small amount made for backers.

if some can get out the link, they can link you to the download of the sculpts that was released, which showed all the digital sculpts, and 3 clay sculpts (3 of the bosses of legend were sculpted in clay)

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November 28th, 2018, 5:15 pm
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SuperHappyTime wrote:
The owners don’t want to give up the SDE license, and is why they are pursuing investors rather than buyers.


My understanding was that they are looking for a buyer. The trouble is that the company looks like it is underwater (owes more than it is worth).

Of course, that's only if you count Kickstarter promises as debt- and they probably work very differently in the legal sense.

I'm personally hoping for a partial delivery on SDL- either from SPM or from someone else who bought the company. If they get Arcade to market, I think it would alleviate a lot (but probably not all) of their problems.

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November 29th, 2018, 5:19 pm
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odinsgrandson wrote:
SuperHappyTime wrote:
The owners don’t want to give up the SDE license, and is why they are pursuing investors rather than buyers.


My understanding was that they are looking for a buyer. The trouble is that the company looks like it is underwater (owes more than it is worth).


okay.. where did you get this? Last information that was released as I was aware of from Candice, was they were looking at an company which claimed they would produce Arcade at least on Tick (credit) as kinda COS (cash on Sale) which would not only get the product made, but bring some money to move into the next lot. well, Arcade or normal update.. not quite sure which he said now.. but I haven't head anything about looking to sell or even subcontract the license..

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November 29th, 2018, 5:26 pm
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ManicMan wrote:
odinsgrandson wrote:
SuperHappyTime wrote:
The owners don’t want to give up the SDE license, and is why they are pursuing investors rather than buyers.


My understanding was that they are looking for a buyer. The trouble is that the company looks like it is underwater (owes more than it is worth).


okay.. where did you get this? Last information that was released as I was aware of from Candice, was they were looking at an company which claimed they would produce Arcade at least on Tick (credit) as kinda COS (cash on Sale) which would not only get the product made, but bring some money to move into the next lot. well, Arcade or normal update.. not quite sure which he said now.. but I haven't head anything about looking to sell or even subcontract the license..



In the letter to the Attorney General's office, they said that they had been looking for people to acquire Ninja Division as a way to get the Kickstarter fulfilled (and at least as I recall, they said that they had several potential buyers- although without anything further this might be as little as ND's people pitching the idea to someone who said no).

In the same letter, they ALSO said that they were looking to have the Arcade set created on credit (like you said). Their intent was not to give us an update on how well any of this is going, but rather to show the AG's office that they were trying to get the product out to their customers- so we don't know how likely any of that is to occur (or if one scenario is more likely than the other).


Personally, I think they've got a good case for both. SDE sales are way down because they announced a new edition and then didn't deliver/continue with releases. But the property was clearly quite strong, and could easily rebound.

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November 30th, 2018, 6:12 pm
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