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 Legends Update Thread 
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Denizen
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ManicMan wrote:
I guess things are better then stated partly cause they did state a number of things being done right now, and that is always a good thing (and it is a bit out of date because of the time to takes to get such statements done and made)

No offense Drewy, but while i'll say yep, i'll believe ya, i'll take what you say as 50%. That's just what I prefer to do.. If you look back, I've mostly said that with SPM/ND too I believe.. That it SEAMS and most likely etc.. in fact, I normally get hit (in person) a lot by people around me cause even if they say "Hey look, it's a cat" I would reply 'probably' (and yes.. Physically hit) and often can give a bit of a talk on how I can't confirm it's a real cat without more tests.

Been looking a bit at your and HolyCross is work, looks nice but not quite for my group.. I have a crap group ^_^; but still great work so keep it up!


I hear ya about the skepticism. But I get a good vibe and I believe in it still. I'm hoping I'm right and wont be disappointed, but you never know.


Sorry about your group, if you were in NY id say join my group.


November 13th, 2018, 8:16 pm
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Mini-Boss
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Main problem is i'm in a backwater town which is meant to be more important (and thinks it is) then it is.. we have no decent board game shops or hobby game shops.. never had.. we have a model shop which carries some GW stuff but not a huge amount. used to have a popular good shop selling GW stuff and a bit more, very popular but staff were a bit thick.. then they decided to turn half the shop into 'fake American idea of ninja weapons' shop and stick that bit at the front.. it killed the shop.. its a hairdresser now. We have a half okay Toy shop with some limited board games, but that's it. Pretty much every new shop that opens (there are a lot of empty ones mostly cause they are crap) are Clothes, cheap knock-off stuff, or food. Can't remember the next time a different type opened.. and we got some new of that same opening soon ¬_¬ sigh.. chance of finding someone else who has even heard of Super Dungeon is pretty low... though there is a semi-nice shop a couple of towns across that I visit once in a while when I need new paint or something.. nice enough owner and the store painter is bloody good at the style he does (too dark for my tastes).

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November 13th, 2018, 8:25 pm
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Dungeon Boss
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Thanks, drew.

I'm glad that they're feeling positive about delivery, and I certainly hope they're right. I'll admit that this doesn't alleviate all of my worries, but I think I prefer to hope (if guardedly) that things are looking up for them.

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November 13th, 2018, 8:42 pm
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Thank you for sharing. Still going with print and play option. When I receive a shipping notification I'll let my hopes get up.


November 13th, 2018, 10:30 pm
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Denizen
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If Ninja Division gets Arcade box made, it's a great beginning. However, in this situation, I'm doubtful that as an European backer I would get prioritized compared to manufacturing copies on retail. In addition, Brexit is very soon. Ninja Division should start to look into a non-UK fulfillment center if the box ever gets here. It's still possible, not a first time where a project creator was low on funds and still got game delivered to me (couple of years late).

Mostly I'm looking forward to Legends. I would hope to get update about its digital mechanics and adventures, but in my eyes that project is on hold as well. If there are prettified, balanced and beginner friendly (RPG Master wise) fan made Legends campaigns, I am interested in when those are finalized.


November 13th, 2018, 10:35 pm
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Minion
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I'm quite prepared to pitch in some money to help this deliver. I don't see it as putting good money behind bad. I see it more like hiring a contractor that made a mistake and now the project is over budget? To get what I ordered, I need to pay more. If I don't put more money in, all the previous money is wasted.

But then I'm in a privileged enough position that I could probably pay extra if I needed to. Not everyone will be able to.


November 13th, 2018, 10:38 pm
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Mini-Boss
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nakano wrote:
If Ninja Division gets Arcade box made, it's a great beginning. However, in this situation, I'm doubtful that as an European backer I would get prioritized compared to manufacturing copies on retail.


I'm a UK backer, and it's pretty much the same as Eurasia backers.. which kinda makes sense since it's an North American product but oh well.

nakano wrote:
In addition, Brexit is very soon. Ninja Division should start to look into a non-UK fulfillment center if the box ever gets here.


… okay.. This i don't get.. While by EU law, transport from one EU country to another should NOT have any Import tax, In the UK we sometimes have to pay the import tax from other European countries.. So i guess, when that goes from EU law to private country relationship deals, it's possible to be difference, but without knowing the various trade agreements (for example, UK hasn't had a decent one with the USA for... 40 years or so.. but seam to have a great one with China) it's hard to say. Does the Spanish and German teams (Dutch now too) all only use a UK based fulfilment centre? interesting.. since from experience, USA to Germany or France is quicker (probably down to trade deals) then USA to UK, that is very interesting news.. but a bit off topic ^_^;

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November 13th, 2018, 10:46 pm
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I don't have the spare funds, especially during the holidays, to get the pdf cards arranged and printed out.

I want to know what we can do to help solve the problem. I'm starting to see people still backing this getting verbally bullied in multiple spots by some folks who are way too angry about it. That's not acceptable.


November 14th, 2018, 1:13 am
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I would also be interested in a separate fundraising campaign. Small perks (or big) that aren't going to cash-strap them; donation level opening up discount levels (% off ND store or increased Ninja Point generation), constructive virtual playtest discussions with ND crew, overstock offers to donors, refunding some of the Masterclass that have sold-out, cheaper cardboard / low ship options (Ninja All-starts card packs). I am in that smaller(?) group that can afford to fund my hobby and other Kickstarters (most that I sell for small profit on their freebies to fund my others). I would consider it an investment option to get my favorite game out of the cross-hairs and into the spotlight were it belongs.


November 14th, 2018, 2:57 am
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nakano wrote:
In addition, Brexit is very soon. Ninja Division should start to look into a non-UK fulfillment center if the box ever gets here.

[quote="ManicMan”]
… okay.. This i don't get.. While by EU law, transport from one EU country to another should NOT have any Import tax, In the UK we sometimes have to pay the import tax from other European countries.. So i guess, when that goes from EU law to private country relationship deals, it's possible to be difference, but without knowing the various trade agreements (for example, UK hasn't had a decent one with the USA for... 40 years or so.. but seam to have a great one with China) it's hard to say. Does the Spanish and German teams (Dutch now too) all only use a UK based fulfilment centre? interesting.. since from experience, USA to Germany or France is quicker (probably down to trade deals) then USA to UK, that is very interesting news.. but a bit off topic ^_^;[/quote]
If I’m not wrong, the new teams consisists of volunteers. They cannot do fulfillment of this scale. When UK leaves EU, it’s not an EU country anymore. For me it means that importing an item valued more than 22€ requires me to pay VAT/customs. There was supposed to be 2 year transition time. However, No-Deal Brexit could lead to immediate custom charges. Luckily German/France have fulfillment centers available. In the past, Ninja Division has only used UK one, though.


November 14th, 2018, 6:17 am
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I would definitely pay more money to make the KS content happen. But I would want that the money is collected on a notary trust account, where from money is only spent directly to the manufacturers, so SPM/ND doesnt get their fingers on the money. The core game components are ready to be made, so if just production money is needed, the risk should be quite low. But SPM/ND has to initiate this.


November 14th, 2018, 8:01 am
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nakano wrote:
If I’m not wrong, the new teams consisists of volunteers. They cannot do fulfillment of this scale.

true. I was under the impression that they seam to have set up some places for fulfilment and hubs more with the teams helping on that. I might be wrong. No problem either way[/quote]

nakano wrote:
When UK leaves EU, it’s not an EU country anymore. For me it means that importing an item valued more than 22€ requires me to pay VAT/customs. There was supposed to be 2 year transition time. However, No-Deal Brexit could lead to immediate custom charges. Luckily German/France have fulfillment centers available. In the past, Ninja Division has only used UK one, though.


It's been.. a couple of years now of people moaning backwards and forwards. out of the EU countires, sadly the UK was one of the only ones that kept to the rules.. and are MEPs were totally useless just bending over backwards. Despite what the media (who despite claims, are bias.. pretty much everyone is) and that you were either for or against this, I was neither. If you agree or not, my view was are MEPs are useless, like a lot of big companies, the EU Council is corrupt. Some countires in the EU were following the rules on import, and borders, others didn't care less (it's well known that France didn't care less on the UK-France Border, despite them being in the EU and EU laws requiring some more control there side), though the UK people did brake some rules, i'm not denying that.. But for the EU to work, for one thing they need to dump the name, they need to follow there own rules and learn safeguards. for example, you shouldn't be able to have chairman and vice-chairman from the same country. That's not real difference from the vice-chairman being the bosses partner or kid. Well open to corruption. I agree with making a common market (the Common Market was a group that the UK signed up to via a Vote, which was then disbanded and recreated as the more controlling EU, which the UK didn't have a vote on joining), but it needs to be run like any other market. but people are corrupt. They can't help being that stupid. Look at the number of countries that have allows there leaders, who commit rape and murder, to get away withit in return for standing down there job.. that's not really a fair exchange. It's kinda blackmail. anyway.. that's not related..

Either way, If the UK has a deal with the EU group or not, it doesn't really matter much.. We have tons of countries in the world out side of the EU to which we have individual trade agreements and while there seams to be some EU rules saying that members of the EU wont have individual trade agreements but just central ones, a number of the ones DO have individual agreements. I get a fair amount of stuff imported because UK shops are a dead weight, and local ones more so, and personally, bugger all will happen. If it goes bad, in a few years time it'll be back to now, if it goes well, the same thing will happen. History likes order, and hates chaos. there has always been market groups that come and go, raise and fall etc.. nothing greatly changes. People have limited access to news, and less correct news, so newspapers were founded to spread the news, and within no time, the news wasn't correct again and some news wasn't "important" enough to share. So TV came with news shows being more up to date and could give a larger range of items, and then they started to be more flash and less content, news was incorrect again, a lot of news pushed out because it wasn't "interesting enough" for screen time. In the end, nothing much changes.. In the days of early man, we faced the major problems of food, housing and war. we still face the major problems of food, housing and war. thousands of years later, nothing has changed.. war might have scaled from one tribe vs another tribe, to one country vs another, to one group of countries vs another group, but it' all the same.

Anyway.. right now, we have been given some bad news on SDE, we also have a few threads of hope. Until any official statement or anything, we don't know if the threads are from a reel or some left over strands. We have to wait and see how long we have to pull before we see what's they are attached to. and that's a crap metaphor.. anyone got a better one?

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November 14th, 2018, 11:00 am
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Somewhat connected, but someone asked Archon (manufactures the resin miniatures for ND, maybe even the WotF miniatures) how this whole debacle will affect them.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/19 ... o/comments

So they have halted production of Relic Knights and Starfinder due to non-payment by ND.....so looks like they burnt away money for those on "operational costs" too! How bad can they be to mishandle a KS where all they are making is miniatures? No delays for rule rewrites the big meanies of fans demanded; I can assume their sculptors didnt all suffer heart attacks!

Its hilarious that every company that has touched ND on KS is having problems with them, not just a case of "the SDE money is gone". Its only the fact that Prodoss was a nuthouse of a company run by a delusional idiot that ND came off as the better half of that relationship!

So even if they manage to get 2.0 or Arcade made on credit to start cashflow, its all going to be spent on paying Archon for other bad debts before they can pump out the rest of the SDE stuff. And thats not counting Paizo just giving up and taking the Starfinder license off them and leaving them with a bunch of miniatures they may or may not be able to sell (breaches Starfinder copyright & IP)

Its more and more looking like ND doesnt just need the $750,000 but are millions in debt for non-delivery. I highly doubt many companies will be eyeing paying that tab!


November 14th, 2018, 2:44 pm
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Mini-Boss
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sigh.. always..

"Operational Costs" also credited as "Annual Overhead" stated as $343,559
converted to GBP for easy of usage - £263,857 (rounded slightly)

UK minimal wage for the period: £7.50 an hour. Average American Business week: 47 hours a week
Minimal weekly wage: £352.50
Average American weeks paid a year: 52 (2 weeks paid vacation)
Minimal yearly wage: £18,330
Known number of on-staff members: 6 (probably more, I can think of 6)
minimal payroll total: £109,980

Office hire: average £5600 a month for a small start up office for about 10 people. £67,200 for a year. (often does not include all of it, due to building costs in a lease, utilities etc)
warehouse hire: average £6 per square foot per month. average unit size 600sq ft. Rent £3,600 a month, £43,200 a year.

Total based on figures: £220,380
remaining amount: £43,477
Doesn't take into account more then 6 staff members, internet bills, if they need to pay electric etc bills (not always in rent), any vehicle hire, software, machines, licences for same, etc.

Personal View: their Operational costs aren't too bad.. why are you focused on that and quote around it. There are things you can moan about but harping on the same thing seams to make no sense..

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November 14th, 2018, 5:45 pm
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Minion
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ManicMan wrote:
Personal View: their Operational costs aren't too bad.. why are you focused on that and quote around it. There are things you can moan about but harping on the same thing seams to make no sense..


Because it doesn't add up! So SDE covered about 2 years of paying bills....what happened to all the profit they would make from existing lines at that time? Since all the rent and electricity and wages are paid, and all major developments were funded by KSers (Rail Raiders, WotF, Relic Knights 2nd, Starfinder) and all other developments (Iron Golem, Tetsudo Tower, Beatrix, various tile sets, reboxed Von Drakk + Roxxor) were covered by the SDE money paying wages and such, where is that money?

How long could they have gone on by selling existing stock before needing to dip into the SDE cash? They ran 3 KS'ers before so they know there will be delays with fulfillment so the rules rewrite cant have hit them as bad as it did. The game funded Nov 2015 with an estimated delivery a year later...and they said they had product ready to print in early 2017 in the report above; so about 5 months delay (fairly average for a KS boardgame, and similar to their own experiences) and they are all out of money! Not even enugh to get a 3rd of the projected content into productionSurely their existing lines would have pushed them along for a few extra months to get their main money spinner out...how bad were they doing? Were they losing money before the Legends KS even launched? Was that KS launched as a quick cash injection to keep them afloat, and the hope they could do.....something.....to finish it after they ran dry that well? And where did the extra "development costs" for Rail Raiders and WotF go, since SDE was covering everyones wages and paying the bills?

I'm looking at the company as a whole, not picking a choosing figures like they are to make it look better for them! "Oh, operating costs aren't too bad!"...but not in a company that had 2 other open KS'ers and a large existing product range! SDE wasn't created in a vacumn in ND, it didn't have a separate development team that worked in an independently rented building and have staff that never interacted or worked on other products!

Put it another way: did the people involved with SD: Legends have any hand in the creation of ANY SDE products after the Forgotten King stuff arrived (Iron Golem, Beatrix, Scarecrow, Dungeons tiles etc etc) that sold during the time the Legends cash was being used to keep the doors open? If so, where did the money for those products go and why wasn't that used to keep the doors open?


November 14th, 2018, 8:12 pm
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It does make you wander about how above water the company was. I have seen plenty of companies that don't keep a huge amount of cash on hand or anything because time between releases/getting money for releases and know that they needed to use a KS to raise the money for large scale new products (as has happened before with FK). So I always assumed they were a company which was floating on the top. Not flying in the sky, or under the water, but floating happily on the top. KS money would not just keep them afloat but go into the development which the payback would be mostly threw the sales for the next few years, giving a steady trickle.. but I would need to go into the full accounts (which the US system of public access confuses the hell out of me).

So you might have a point, which I say thank you for finally explaining, but again, I seams an unknown amount.. SPM were always a niche market.. Niche markets don't get flushed with cash, and it was one of the reasons why the prices were always a bit above larger companies. but fair enough.

As for RR and WoTF, no clue.. I don't have anything to do with them.

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November 14th, 2018, 8:30 pm
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Minion
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Danteire wrote:
Somewhat connected, but someone asked Archon (manufactures the resin miniatures for ND, maybe even the WotF miniatures) how this whole debacle will affect them.


My understanding is that Archon is to Prodoss like Ninja Division is to Soda Pop Miniatures? If so, I think there is likely two sides to the story. When I backed WoTF knowing that Prodoss will be the one making the resin miniatures I was hesitant (I backed anyways). Mainly from the history of Prodoss and also based on another Kickstarter I backed - Blackwater Gulch 2.0 (which was an campaign ran at a similar time as WoTF). They had planned to use Prodoss but backed out. The creator explained to the backers that the initial date of producing miniatures for that campaign would have delayed the project for at least one year (MINIMUM) from the original estimate Prodoss gave to the Blackwater Gulch creator. I remember the Blackwater Gulch creator stating that Prodoss decided to prioritize their own companies products leading to the new estimate of producing miniatures for other companies.


November 14th, 2018, 8:33 pm
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there are always two sides.. sadly too many people that that means the correct side and the wrong side.

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November 14th, 2018, 8:51 pm
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While I'll grant you there is no actual info within, this goes along the same lines of dsdrew924's earlier post. This was posted by John Cadice just recently on the facebook chibi gamer group.


John Starck Cadice: Plans are in motion, and have been worked on for a very long time to secure our manufacturing. Contextually, it is only a portion of the story, we will be sharing more to the community soon, with GOOD news, not all this flame and damnation. We are still moving forward, halts were unavoidable, but temporary.
The AG response was truthful and necessary, and we remain committed to deliver your pledges. A great deal of information is not visible as to our current activities, when it is secure, we will tell you. No more rampant speculation and basing our communications off of the promises of others. Only what we hold in our hands.


https://www.facebook.com/groups/2416079 ... 2314%22%7D


There's a lot swirling around right now between the AG report, the Archon statement, and now this, so it's hard to know what's what really or get too excited. Would surely be nice to hear some good news in the not too distant (I hope) future. Outside of a select few, I think most people would like to see this deliver.


November 14th, 2018, 11:20 pm
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I hope this problems set solved.

I may have expressed myself badly. What my intentions are is not to pay Soda Pop again, but pay the debt so we could have our product. I don't want to see SuperDungeon to die, but with the debt paid we could have our product AND any interested buyer could buy Soda Pop Miniatures or the rights of SDE and start the production again. Think about it, if you were a possible buyer of a board game license, wouldn't it be interesting to buy a game which fans are so invested that saved the product by themselves?

Then again, it is a hard work that Fans can hardly afford, and I personally have no idea of how to do it or if it is even more stupid than it sounds. At least we could think about it.


November 16th, 2018, 8:11 am
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