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Denizen
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Joined: September 26th, 2014, 6:38 pm
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the problem with that argument is Sodapop still have a responsibility to those backers . Ones they volantarily chose to shoulder - After all the they promised this in return of x amount of money. The backers kept their side of the deal . Sodapop should not be allowed to arbitarily say we are not keeping ours.

If they really want us unhappy backers gone - give us our money back.


Last edited by growlley on April 23rd, 2018, 12:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.



April 23rd, 2018, 12:07 pm
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Mini-Boss
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okay, so all the unhappy backers are ones who have requested refunds. Doesn't seam to add up but fine, I'll take your word on that. I believe they have a department for handling refunds which can be pested so the innocent non-refund backers can get on with waiting

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April 23rd, 2018, 12:13 pm
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Denizen
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except they are not handling refunds - they havent issued any since novemember * last year , they have closed the refund against the terms they collected the money under.

* you don't think people would have said if they had managed to get a refund since then? Would I be going to all the bother and expense of working my way through the check list of actions to take before initiating legal action in the uk - if they had given me my refund?

"I believe they have a department for handling refunds which can be pested so the innocent non-refund backers can get on with waiting"

a department that after the second request do not bother to even reply?


April 23rd, 2018, 12:19 pm
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Mini-Boss
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okay, lets be stupid here:
How did you pay? Directy via credit card, Paypal?

If Credit card, check with your banks protection policy, I believe most if not all banks in the UK have one under section 75 of the consumer credit act. That's for goods or services worth between £100 and £30,000. What will often be done is the bank will get you your money and then take up against the company themselves, and they have a major stronger weight then a person does. Without knowing your bank, I can't point you to a source for that.

if pay pal, it might STILL come under your credit card, or via paypals protection policy, which pretty much comes under the same act.

Do I think you would go through all the trouble if a refund was given? yes. I believe in human nature and there have been a LARGE amount of cases throughout recorded history of such fraud taking place. As I do not know you personally, I cannot judge on how much effort you would put into anything. I have seen a lot of effort for nothing, and no effort for a lot.

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April 23rd, 2018, 12:30 pm
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Denizen
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Do you even know what you are on about ? They have delayed so long on this project they are outside the window even for credit card s never mind paypal.


April 23rd, 2018, 12:38 pm
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Yes I do. There is NO time limit for making a claim under Section 75. However, if you wish to go through the courts it's 6 years in the Uk and 5 years in Scotland.

Which makes me wonder, do you even know now what you are going on about?

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April 23rd, 2018, 12:41 pm
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Denizen
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actually there is - it was 6 months for paypal at the time of this kickstarter and later expanded and credit card companies by policy rarely chase claims up beyond 12 motnhs . Either way wouldnt not help as it was paid by debit card and banks do not process claims beyond 12 months and section 75 does not apply.

I already knew the 6 years *******

Removed insult. Please play nice people. Last warning before this thread gets closed for forever. -Jestor


Last edited by growlley on April 23rd, 2018, 8:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.



April 23rd, 2018, 12:49 pm
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"rarely chase claims" is subjective to companies. You used a credit card company and not a bank, which makes it a bit trickier.

While banks do have a backlog, there isn't a limit apart from that which I stated, which is only if you wish to pursue the matter through the courts.

As I am trying to be helpful and you seam to be throwing insults at me, I'm an inclined to be less helpful and disregard your statements but I shall not do that yet. I shall try to be helpful. I will again ask, which bank/credit company did you use? This is so I can direct you to the correct form.

It IS possible that Section 75 does not apply, but not for time reasons, it it was under or over the amount for example.

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April 23rd, 2018, 1:03 pm
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Minion
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I just want to point out that we should not blame other backers for their anger against SPM/ND. How SPM/ND handled refunds really looks poorly on them, in my opinion. It really should not take that many months to get refunds back and their update posts stating that no refunds will be offered without any forewarning speaks volume on certain aspects of the company, which for me is very disappointing.

It will be interesting to see if the Starfinder miniatures will be sent out before Way of the Fighter miniatures.


April 23rd, 2018, 1:51 pm
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True. I am not blaming them for there Anger. I'm blaming them for how they are venting their anger. It seams to be very much in a non-productive way.

It's kinda like when you at.. say at Home and someone makes a big mess just cause they want to. You can be angry with them, you have every right. But you can either kick and scream and shout at everyone while the mess sits there, or you can try to do something about it. Either politely pointing out they have made a mess and shouldn't do it and asking them to clean it up, or telling them off and cleaning it up yourself. okay.. not the best way to put it, but.. oh well ^_^

The point is the venting is my target, not the anger. But it's fair to bring it up that I for one am not blaming people at their anger. There are tons of things I wished the company would do better but when I first got involved with SPM stuff, it was kinda a company known not to be the best at customer service, not to be the best at prices, but still a decent company. Sometimes that have been better, sometimes worse, but that still seams to be the case for me. So fair point Mr Red.

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April 23rd, 2018, 1:59 pm
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Denizen
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akai wrote:
It will be interesting to see if the Starfinder miniatures will be sent out before Way of the Fighter miniatures.


how likely would this be? i mean WotF shared pics of the minis produced and bagged I thought? Did Starfinder also show that they have minis produced?

then again, I won't pretend to know how long it takes b/w pics of produced minis in bags to on your doorstep.


April 23rd, 2018, 4:00 pm
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Minion
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sleepy_laughter wrote:
akai wrote:
It will be interesting to see if the Starfinder miniatures will be sent out before Way of the Fighter miniatures.


how likely would this be? i mean WotF shared pics of the minis produced and bagged I thought? Did Starfinder also show that they have minis produced?

then again, I won't pretend to know how long it takes b/w pics of produced minis in bags to on your doorstep.


Beats me. I see the minis photos in Way of the Fighter updates, but no estimated dates of when things will be shipped. I don't see minis photos in the Starfinder update, but they have just given an estimate of when the first shipment will be (in a month or so from now)...different priorities for different projects?


April 23rd, 2018, 7:26 pm
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akai wrote:
sleepy_laughter wrote:
akai wrote:
It will be interesting to see if the Starfinder miniatures will be sent out before Way of the Fighter miniatures.


how likely would this be? i mean WotF shared pics of the minis produced and bagged I thought? Did Starfinder also show that they have minis produced?

then again, I won't pretend to know how long it takes b/w pics of produced minis in bags to on your doorstep.


Beats me. I see the minis photos in Way of the Fighter updates, but no estimated dates of when things will be shipped. I don't see minis photos in the Starfinder update, but they have just given an estimate of when the first shipment will be (in a month or so from now)...different priorities for different projects?


There are very different, potentially completely different, people working one each of those projects. So there very well could be completely different priorities and methods being used.


April 23rd, 2018, 8:00 pm
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Denizen
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visa code 30 Services Not Provided or Merchandise Not Received


days 120* 45 Visa Chargeback Reason Code 30 Time Limit Modifiers

Time limits associated with Visa chargeback reason code 30 can change if the merchandise or services were expected to be provided after the transaction processing date. However, the time limit a cardholder or issuer has to chargeback cannot exceed 540 calendar days from the date of transaction processing.


Portions of post removed - Jestor


April 23rd, 2018, 8:47 pm
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Mini-Boss
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that is annoying.. chargeback.. so it wasn't paid via credit card, but with a debit card.. there is a huge difference with even how credit cards vs debit cards work.. and chargeback isn't even a law so it doesn't have legal weight (but many companies.. well, 3 offer it and it does have power)

there are a few organisations which will help you look into the best way to head for a refund. Can't think of the names of the top of my head as citizens advice bureau would probably be unable to help, but might remember some.

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April 23rd, 2018, 9:47 pm
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Minion
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Usagi wrote:
This is an interesting point. When all you do is focus outrage against someone or something, no matter what they do, they will stop trying to serve to assuage the outrage. They will, instead, just start ignoring the outraged, because the result will be the same if they try or if they put no effort in. And one way is far less headaches and more time for people not trying to villainise everything you do. It's definitely a lesson is learning to curb your rage because you think a tantrum every few minutes will get you what you want, at the very least.


That is a terrible lesson to take away from that situation. SPM should have taken the lesson that turning things around isn't easy. Just saying "We want to better our relationship with our backers and be more open" isn't enough, you then have to follow through. There will still be vitriolic individuals who rage for little to no reason, but that is what should be ignored. And even then, ignore the poor behavior, but continually work to address the underlying issue. With more meaningful customer engagement they could have assuaged alot of the rage that is out there.

The problem now is that it is the more level headed individuals who are starting to get fed up. If you look at my post history you'll see I'm very supportive of them and the project. However, the project is getting terribly long in the tooth and they've now 180'd on their promise to become more open, saying they're going to go dark until they can report something has been accomplished. While I understand the desire to avoid false promises, giving milestones minus ETAs should be doable. As things change and milestones are met (or new milestones are unfortunately added) annotate that so we can all see where in the process we are. Add ridiculous things like more customer interaction on a small facebook group than the KS itself or the company's own message board.

To continually feel ignored while you see other projects making tangible progress (and getting BONUS customer service expedited delivery schedules) is going to drive some of the most patient backers up a wall.


April 23rd, 2018, 11:32 pm
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Minion
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Usagi wrote:
akai wrote:
There are very different, potentially completely different, people working one each of those projects. So there very well could be completely different priorities and methods being used.


Starfinder minis have the potential to sell quite well even after the Kickstarter is done, possibly better than anything in their existing product lineup. If ND fails to deliver in a timely manner, I suppose Paizo could yank the licensing deal, and they would loose the potential income stream. Because if this, I would not be surprised to see all ND funds, manufacturing slots, layout resources, and shipping budgets will be diverted to Starfinder.


April 24th, 2018, 7:51 am
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Well personally I'm still not buying into the "damned if they do, damned if they don't" sentiment.
Because honestly, what are the positive "DO"s they've done in any recent time? Where are the stuff where a neutral outsider would say "that is an undisputable good thing for everybody".
They way I see it it has all been either bad moves or neutral stuff.

Releasing a handful of new models is a neutral act in my book. We were starving for new stuff, but releasing models for people to buy for money should be the absolute baseline for a miniature company.
Releasing models in resin is something nobody asked for. Add in the high price, poor quality cards and black bases and we drift into "bad move" territory.
Things like pure fluff updates can be considered a neutral move. It's not explicitly bad for anybody.
Closing for refunds with no warning is a bad move. Closing for refunds at a certain point is sensible, but not without warning.

The list goes on with big and small things. Not any SINGLE thing is the cause, but each of these "bad moves" just adds to people's dismay.
I believe the dismay can be reversed, but we need a reason. We need "good moves" for it to happen. Not neutral moves and certainly not more bad moves piled on top.

We need a string of good news.

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April 24th, 2018, 8:05 am
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Minion
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Quote:
We need a string of good news.


I don't think we need a string of good news. Just a string of real news. Tell us where the project is, tell us why we needed to move to another production factory, give us an understanding of what it means to be "basically finished" for the last 6 months.

I don't even really care if the news is bad. I just want to know what's going on.

Sure, fluff posts are neutral, not bad for anyone... but when you get your hopes up that "maybe I'll learn something this month" and then a couple updates go by and you still feel like you're grasping at straws to understand the current progress / velocity... that feeling of being lost is definitely a negative.


April 24th, 2018, 1:27 pm
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"That which consumes your thoughts, controls your life."
...no matter how good, bad or ugly is... just no worth spend energy to arguing by any "side" of circle which going to remain a circle draw by ND/SPM. Nothing will change even by anger, or patience, or enjoyness, or whatever is attached into this pointless discussion. Move on take care of your life, job, children, pets, another boardgames, another hobby and leave this alone, forgotten. This company desires to dilute the toxicity from Kickstarter backers... so, go ahead and release your mind from task of remembering about this company and this franchise every single day. Maybe the side-effect will be noticeable how all this is irrelevant when you stop think about them. I still watching the flow, but I'm working to gradually turn around to stop put my eyes on it, because is boring, tiring keep waiting for new toys like a hopefull pea.

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April 24th, 2018, 3:29 pm
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