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Mini-Boss
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I think, for the lore updates, they're writing about whatever draws their inspiration this week. This time it was gnomes.

I can understand why everyone is upset about getting fluff over what we havent been able to use yet, so maybe we need a different direction. I'd like to see more lore about Crystalia itself, the lands, not just the peoples.

The Dragon Call has been referred to a number of times, but we don't know what it actually is. How did it lead to the fall of the Lunar Elf culture? Was it just Starfire, or were more dragons involved?

Whats the diffrense in culture between Areals and settlements in the Wandering Monk mountains?


April 20th, 2018, 4:25 pm
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Minion
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Salaura wrote:
I think, for the lore updates, they're writing about whatever draws their inspiration this week. This time it was gnomes.

I can understand why everyone is upset about getting fluff over what we havent been able to use yet, so maybe we need a different direction. I'd like to see more lore about Crystalia itself, the lands, not just the peoples.

The Dragon Call has been referred to a number of times, but we don't know what it actually is. How did it lead to the fall of the Lunar Elf culture? Was it just Starfire, or were more dragons involved?

Whats the diffrense in culture between Areals and settlements in the Wandering Monk mountains?


I agree to this statement as things that we don't have is less inspiring then places that we know....ish and would love more information on.


April 20th, 2018, 5:23 pm
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unless the impossible happens and they do a special post before update day to say "We kept this a secret but all orders all over the world are currently out for delivery! every single thing PLUS we have thrown in the Frostbyte level box (Halls of the Lich King) for free" then 'Everyone' is going to be upset and screaming blue murder... so don't worry about it.

For the Dragon's call.. yes, one of the main events In the past of Crystalia. Through some bits of lore have "changed" over time (can we say, the chronicles are not fully sure of the TRUTH (like in real life?)) what is known is a fair bit really:
#Dragon's existed in the world of Crystalia before the coming of the Dark Consul. [Explorer handbook page 1: dealing with the creation of Crystalia, the dragonback peaks were created. While it might not be the case, Dragon's need to exist in some matter in order to name an area after them]
#In order to balance the world, there was the Dark realm. There were hidden portals between Crystalia and the dark realm [EH page 1]
#Before the rise of the Dark consul, the Elf race sprung from the deeproot tree, not the goddess. They split into 3 groups, the Deeproot elves, the Lunar Elves and the Nether Elves. [EH page 12].
#The Lunar Elves set up on the highest summits of the Dragonback peaks. This was the home of there sub-race. [EH page 12]
#One day, a Celestian Consul (who is a sorcerer) was digging in the Arcadian Dunes, under the old Captial he found one of the amethyst portals [the colour of the dark realm] and was turned from a consul into the dark consul [EH page 2]
#As part of the last part of the assault on the goddess tower, the Dark Consul called out and awoke the Ancient Dragon's of Crystalia. The Consul's attack ending in his banishment and the Dragon's wrought new devastation upon the lands. This was the "Dragon's call" [EH page 18]
#Starfire's awakening in the dragonback peaks all but wiped out the Lunar Elves with only a few remaining, as well as doing a lot of damage to the Heartsworn Dwarves who had moved there from the frostbite reaches [EH page 12,18 and 19]
#After his banishment, and the fall of Celestia, the First King came about [EH page 3]
#not long later, a noble tried to become king [this is hinted to be not TOO long after the banishment of the dark consul.. within a 100 years I would say due to people 'still reeling from the dark consul's treachery'. EH page 4]. He became known as the Forgotten King.

Other dragon's were involed. We do not know which ones of the great 4 (maybe 5 but Nightsong kinda hints only 4) (I guess all of them ^_^) and some things seam heavily hinted at which include:
# Monach Tvar, Prince of the Lunar Elves fell to the Dark Consul while claiming the Dragon's Horn relic. [Monarch Tvar card]. It then stats to get this, he killed his only sister, the Princess Elara and doomed the lunar elves to the Dragon's Call. Seams to imply the Horn was what the Dark Consul blew in order to awaken the sleeping dragon's during his attack on the Goddess Tower
#The Dragon's often do the work for or with the Dark Consul but do so because they want to. Nightsong [see his boss card], was turn from an Emerald Dragon to his undead form due to the Dark realm, but does not serve the dark consul. Starfire is believed to be the first one 'currupted' by the dark consul where the others slept. He appeared to have created the dragon cults for the kobold's when they came from the nether rift.
#Basically all dragons have a Kobold Cult. Starfire has the 'normal' fire based Kobolds, Nightsong has his undead ones as well as the Nether palette swaps, Hoathfrag (or whatever the ice one is) has frozen Kobolds but so far, they are just palette swaps which have been seen (but remember, there are tons of types of Kobold, like the Wyrm ones). Glimmerwing, being a minor dragon, doesn't seam to have a group, yet probably should have. We do not known of the Amber Dragon.
#The Dragon Horn is/was in the position of Starfire after the Lunar Elfs and can call the Dragon King [Dragon Horn Treasure card.. THIS said, a Dragon horn might not be THE dragon horn..

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April 20th, 2018, 5:35 pm
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Denizen
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@Manicman, I agree wholeheartedly with your first paragraph. Nothing short of plastic in hand, on doorsteps will make people happy at this point. And the vocal, angry backers will remain vocal and angry over every update that doesn’t give them fulfillment dates.

Even when fulfillment occurs I’m sure some people will grasp at reasons to stay angry.

Besides that, great lore summary. I almost skipped over it but I’m glad I read it. I’ve been buried in the 1.0/FK lore sources as I write my own Legends campaign. After awhile it all blurs together. It was a great refresher.


April 20th, 2018, 6:04 pm
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thanks ^_^

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April 20th, 2018, 6:06 pm
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Disappointing, but to be fair, they DID say they would only update when there were something to update about.
It was literally lore or no update at all.

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April 20th, 2018, 6:37 pm
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Minion
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Salaura wrote:
I think, for the lore updates, they're writing about whatever draws their inspiration this week. This time it was gnomes.


I think these lore updates are written a long time ago. They just copy and paste sections for update posts to meet their "quota" when they either have no "relevant" or don't want to provide status updates.


April 20th, 2018, 6:38 pm
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akai wrote:
Salaura wrote:
I think, for the lore updates, they're writing about whatever draws their inspiration this week. This time it was gnomes.

I think these lore updates are written a long time ago. They just copy and paste sections for update posts to meet their "quota" when they either have no "relevant" or don't want to provide status updates.

Yes all lore should be done by now.
Update #101 wrote:
• Legends: Explorers Handbook - well, long story short, we wrote too friggin much, and are editing things down to meet page count. Once complete, we will move to layout the copy, and start putting in art.


April 20th, 2018, 7:51 pm
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Minion
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Just saw this update on Starfinder:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/32 ... ts/2166080

I get one of two vibes out of this. Either, A) They're financially fine and have been sitting on the money this whole time, or, B) Paizo forced their hand to get al those minis out.

Either way, worldwide shipping on ND's dime once a month!? Any way you slice that, it's costly...

If they weren't financially unstable now, I can't imagine the money sink going towards the price of monthly worldwide shipping... ):


April 21st, 2018, 6:03 pm
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there has been an update say they have money issues now? missed that.. seen some bits where they are biting the bullet and giving people more for their money (cutting into more then 1 wave without charging extra shipping, throwing in extra bits, having to go through a whole new manufacture to speed up)..


Ninja division (the publishing company owned with Soda pop) have been releasing quite a bit of stuff with a number of ranges.. that is probably fairly steady income for a while, while also showing a steady out-going amount too (production, shipping etc). So while any company with a decent set of accountants WANTS to sit on some money in the bank, I don't really see the "Sitting on the money this whole time" idea.. or them having major money problems, which as stated above, seam a bit.. odd..

Oh and... I'm wondering.. How would you go about forcing a company to release stuff if they had no money for it or there were production delays etc? I can name TONS of companies and situations (including this current one) that I would love to try it with.. no offense intended, but it does kinda smell of the "fan theory" of transformers: Machine wars all over again.. and that was a lot of rubbish (for most of you who probably don't know, Machine wars was a small series around 1998. Some fans kinda think because someone at one of this cons said something, it forced Hasbro to product a range of toys... cause.. erm.. it's cheaper then issuing a statement that he was incorrect? I mean, it's possible but...mm)

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April 21st, 2018, 6:45 pm
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Monthly shipping of Starfinder miniatures even internationally? That's just crazy. Seems quite a loss rate for Starfinder campaign. Will those individual miniatures even sell better than SDE could? Hope so, but seems a gamble. Ninja Division should invest money to their core product before anything else. Legends and all SDE related miniatures from other campaigns seem to get the last spot.


April 21st, 2018, 8:27 pm
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Minion
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ManicMan wrote:
there has been an update say they have money issues now? missed that.. seen some bits where they are biting the bullet and giving people more for their money (cutting into more then 1 wave without charging extra shipping, throwing in extra bits, having to go through a whole new manufacture to speed up)..


Ninja division (the publishing company owned with Soda pop) have been releasing quite a bit of stuff with a number of ranges.. that is probably fairly steady income for a while, while also showing a steady out-going amount too (production, shipping etc). So while any company with a decent set of accountants WANTS to sit on some money in the bank, I don't really see the "Sitting on the money this whole time" idea.. or them having major money problems, which as stated above, seam a bit.. odd..

Oh and... I'm wondering.. How would you go about forcing a company to release stuff if they had no money for it or there were production delays etc? I can name TONS of companies and situations (including this current one) that I would love to try it with.. no offense intended, but it does kinda smell of the "fan theory" of transformers: Machine wars all over again.. and that was a lot of rubbish (for most of you who probably don't know, Machine wars was a small series around 1998. Some fans kinda think because someone at one of this cons said something, it forced Hasbro to product a range of toys... cause.. erm.. it's cheaper then issuing a statement that he was incorrect? I mean, it's possible but...mm)


I mean... I came into this game late, so I'm not going to say I know the ins and outs of their inner workings, by any stretch, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't know of any company that would openly admit they have money issues. I mean, that's completely counter-intuitive to being a strong business, and one could deduce that they will never openly admit that because that could lead to multiple public issues in their near and foreseeable future. As for the goodies they tacked on, from what I've read things were given, sure, but some things were changed for better or worse, some things were asked for, some things were added as atonement, but I don't think I'd call anything changed out of any sort of actual altruism, for everything done seems to be so for the purpose of either keeping the piece or financial viability in whatever form that may take.

As for releasing things in a variety of ranges, this is true... but I never hear anything about them. Their own home stuff sure, but I don't hear anything about Raid n Trade or Deadfellas, and I like to think I'm pretty current on the board gaming scene, but those games just didn't seem to hit home with alot of people. That Shar Shai game "The Agents" is popular, but his last game "King Down" was met with some disdain and the MLP franchise I heard was decent, but Shinobi 7 has since dissolved, so that point is also moot. The "sitting on money" comment was said as more with a "I hightly doubt it" mentality, so I if you took skepticism away from that comment, you would be right.

As for "forcing a company" to do things, I mean, Paizo can't hold a gun to ND's head and say "finish or else" but depending on contractual obligations, there could be legal violations involved and that oculd lead to a pretty messy business. Even in just PI way, Paizo has a much larger following and influence in the gaming community, and nothign says "kiss of death" than another company you got into bed with hanging out your dirty laundry. Palladum's "closing statement" wasn't taken entirely as fact because, well, Palladum has a shady history, BUT, people could't help but take away SOME semblance of dread, no matter how shady the informer's past was.

Is this all fact? No. There's no way to tell, nor did I ever say there was, but the speculations don't go without any sort of foundation either, and based on peoples' statements, I think making these conclusions are at least somewhat feasible, and definately not unfounded. :3


April 21st, 2018, 9:22 pm
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Mini-Boss
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I was working on a fair big reply but I can't see the point ^_^
It doesn't matter what "people" say.. without NAMED and proven source information (anyone can say "I have a friend in the company" etc) released in an official way, nothing can be known.

Sure, there are laws, like how Seth Quest (might be his real name but... names like that are iffy to me) got sued because his kickstarter raised the money and wasn't able to fulfil. Neil Singh won by the way. this is all back in 2013 and it seams not many people remember the case now.. through it was a MAJOR news story of the day...) but unless you are extremely rich or stupid, contracts can be gotten out of.. hell, a kill fee is almost always written in.. has to be.. unless you are extremely rich or stupid ^_^

but end of the day, like I said, everything is rumour, some is claiming to be fact, but rumour and theories aren't real.. they can be made real but aren't until they stop being rumour and theories.

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April 21st, 2018, 10:54 pm
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Minion
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ManicMan wrote:
I was working on a fair big reply but I can't see the point ^_^
It doesn't matter what "people" say.. without NAMED and proven source information (anyone can say "I have a friend in the company" etc) released in an official way, nothing can be known.

Sure, there are laws, like how Seth Quest (might be his real name but... names like that are iffy to me) got sued because his kickstarter raised the money and wasn't able to fulfil. Neil Singh won by the way. this is all back in 2013 and it seams not many people remember the case now.. through it was a MAJOR news story of the day...) but unless you are extremely rich or stupid, contracts can be gotten out of.. hell, a kill fee is almost always written in.. has to be.. unless you are extremely rich or stupid ^_^

but end of the day, like I said, everything is rumour, some is claiming to be fact, but rumour and theories aren't real.. they can be made real but aren't until they stop being rumour and theories.


I mean, by that logic,even things that are "proven" can be a lie. After all, believing is seeing, and that is prominent in all walks of life. The only proven things are basically scientific proofs and functions; anything written by a human can be a lie or falsehood of some sort.

I guess my question then becomes twofold: 1What does it matter to you what people think or how they feel on the matter, and two, what if you're wrong, and the gates come crashing down? Then what?Are you planning on idly sitting by, staying on these forums talking about SDE and saying "Que sera sera"? It's not even jeering or cynacism, I'm actually legitimately curious.

Also, why do you always say "seams" instead of "seems"? o.o?


April 22nd, 2018, 2:56 am
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ah, you see the point partly. proven things can be lies. If they are known to be false when stated, they are lies and in this case is a MAJOR ground for legal action. But I have yet to see SPM lie. They have been vague and not said stuff, or expected a set release date but it turned out to not be possible, but not lie. And scientific proofs.. most scientists will tell you it's a media term that doesn't exist in science.

For your question.. I think it's a case of I'll see a problem when they start to lie (which is a statement of fact known to be false) like going from expected dates to confirmed dates which pass) or signs that they are unable to fulfil. What people think... can be read and taken into account but the blessing and curse of the internet is anyone can say anything. Hell, I can easily post something which looks like some accounts to show how bad or well the company is doing and claim it's from an inside source, and it's in fact complete rubbish that I made up. Since America doesn't have a decent version of company house (partly cause it's a collection of countries (states) instead of counties, it's much harder to find out stuff too.. If I'm wrong, then I have learnt. That's one of the key factors of life. No-one can know everything, you live and learn. If you stop learning, you might as well stop living.

As for the seams problem.. Probably due to dyslexia. spell checking can often catch mistakes when I spell the words wrong, but when they are right but in the wrong context, it doesn't help.. and that is one of the words I'm always getting wrong ^_^ I try not to let it bother me. I've always been one of these 'don't use a weakness as an excuse' kinda people. Work twice as hard to be half as good and all.

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April 22nd, 2018, 9:39 am
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Minion
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That starfinder update irks me greatly... Where's that level of service for this campaign? That campaign was ~2 years after this. While I still understand and support the delays to fix rules it's been said time and again that was completed a long time ago and we've been waiting for the "go" button. That campaign isn't even late yet. The fact they'll even start shipping anything on time over there is a great step-up so the implied need for urgency to fulfill those pledges can't help but give the impression that campaign and its backers are of much greater import to the company.

Can I expect monthly deliveries of my SDE items once we finally arrive at real production? Will I receive SDE 2.0 Explore Mode as soon as it's off the assembly line? Followed the next month by Arcade/Midnight Tower mode? Then Warbands, then bonus minis, and finally Legends?

While I definitely appreciate the complexities of creating a game, and the delays, and that items are being produced in different places so timelines won't be affected by the same issues, this feels like a kick to teeth. Definitely hope they've run the numbers multiple times to ensure the additional cost of shipping doesn't bleed them dry before this campaign fulfills...


April 22nd, 2018, 1:55 pm
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Denizen
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'Also, why do you always say "seams" instead of "seems"? o.o?'

cos they have been stitched up by sodapop like all the rest of us backers and we haven't yet mined the rich veins of anonyance.


April 22nd, 2018, 10:50 pm
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Minion
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My assumption - they accept that they have likely upset a significant number of backers of their pre-Starfinder campaigns and that whatever they can feasibly do will not make those backers happy (cutting the losses). So they are putting the extra effort to make Starfinder campaign to be less controversial. But until Starfinder backers actually received their items, I don't have much confidence that fulfillment of Starfinder will go well.


April 23rd, 2018, 5:34 am
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akai wrote:
My assumption - they accept that they have likely upset a significant number of backers of their pre-Starfinder campaigns and that whatever they can feasibly do will not make those backers happy (cutting the losses). So they are putting the extra effort to make Starfinder campaign to be less controversial. But until Starfinder backers actually received their items, I don't have much confidence that fulfillment of Starfinder will go well.


This is an interesting point. When all you do is focus outrage against someone or something, no matter what they do, they will stop trying to serve to assuage the outrage. They will, instead, just start ignoring the outraged, because the result will be the same if they try or if they put no effort in. And one way is far less headaches and more time for people not trying to villainise everything you do. It's definitely a lesson is learning to curb your rage because you think a tantrum every few minutes will get you what you want, at the very least.


April 23rd, 2018, 6:58 am
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Usagi wrote:
When all you do is focus outrage against someone or something, no matter what they do, they will stop trying to serve to assuage the outrage. They will, instead, just start ignoring the outraged, because the result will be the same if they try or if they put no effort in.


Yep. That is the problem. The overly angry death threat people have been screwing everyone else over. It has been stated a number of times and they should be able to express there outrage in a better manner, but are unable to do so. SPM and ND can learn for next time, which it looks like they are, but since they are damned if they do and damned if they don't in this case, it's just a comment waste of time and money to bothered more.

Of course, there are a couple of way around such a situation which are possible (sorry, getting them to release what is not made isn't not a option. nor the people who seam to go back to the idea of "why weren't the figures made and huge storage fees paid while waiting for the cards, manual etc) but for them to be possible, people would have to go against human nature.. and I have no faith in that. You would need to go into advance social facilitation and social inhibition theory and that's beyond me.. Robert Zajonc could help but he's been dead for years.. anyone got a BA in social psychology specialising in westerners?

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April 23rd, 2018, 11:38 am
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