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Denizen
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true. And we seam to have picked up a couple of so-so options, but limited

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March 2nd, 2018, 3:08 pm
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Minion
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Yeah, hopefully they can get a really good partnership or series of partnerships to help across Europe. Very obvious they have a lot of fans across the pond and beyond.


March 2nd, 2018, 3:10 pm
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Minion
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Meankeb wrote:
I think that the price point is primarily driven by the 50mm base. This will be the first release since Iron Golem / Tsudo / Roxor 2.0 in this size, and only of this size in resin I can remember since... King Starfire? I may be crazy on this one, but I don't think so.


I follow your logic, but I feel that there may be an unseen flaw in it.

Resin miniatures are expensive because the MOLDS wear down faster, and won't produce as many miniatures before needing to be remade/replaced. In the most oversimplified terms, the rigidity of resin means that it basically does more damage to the mold every time you pull one out of the mold. It's really not an issue relating to the cost of resin itself. In fact, when experimenting with mold making myself a few years back, I found that resin as a casting material was itself significantly cheaper than plastic compounds -that may not be as significant in commercial volumes, but I can't imagine that the raw material cost would swing drastically enough that resin would cost notably more than plastic in bulk. If anything it would make sense for the cost of resin material to become more affordable by a wider margin at those volumes.

That said, this alone doesn't account for the increased cost, right? It's the MOLDS after all, that are so much more expensive, not the materials.

A bigger mold, particularly one with a rather large bulbous shape (a nice rounded walrus) isn't going to wear out faster than a small one -in fact, the shape and size might actually wear out SLOWER than the smaller mini molds would. A large surface area that is overall much smoother than your regular small minis, would generate much less friction, less wear and tear. With a portion of the rider itself being smooth/obfuscated by the walrus, less detail and mold space is required even for him (the most detailed bit of it). In short, it is unlikely that this requires more mold units to manufacture than a smaller one. Sure, it's POSSIBLE that things are laid out in some weirdly inefficient manner, but that's unlikely -the logic by which a mold/sprew should be laid out most efficiently doesn't noticably change based on material differences between resin and plastic.

So, yes. The amount of resin in the walrus unit might be higher, but the material itself is only a fraction of the real production cost -its the mold units, and there isn't much reason if any to believe that this actually uses more or wears them down any faster. Seems to be more of a case that they hope consumers will see bigger sizes and just assume the price increase makes logical sense.

If the price were, say ten dollars higher -$30, rather than $20, it would still be high, especially after you factor in shipping (which they only offer through one rather pricey method). But it would at least seem a little less ridiculous.


March 2nd, 2018, 9:34 pm
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Minion
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I'm not an aficionado by any means, but from previous research I'd done to figure out why Kingdom Death figures were so pricey there were a few things I'd found mentioned as to the expense increases:
1) There are many different resins, not all resin is the same in quality or cost. Like any material there's bargain basement and higher qualities. As SPM is calling this "Masterclass" my hope would be they are going with a high quality mixture. Not saying this is 100% true in any event.
2) When you are doing resin your goal is better detail, as such you need a more detailed sculpt to begin with. This invariably leads to more expense in paying the artist creating the sculpt, and in tooling the mold. Again, makes sense to me, but it's just info I read on the net.

Extrapolating from some of the info myself, it also seems like if resin releases are generally smaller runs then the cost per unit for the original source sculpt is higher. ie. if I pay an artist $1000 for a sculpt and produce 1000 minis, I need to bake $1 into the cost each mini to cover that expense. if i pay that same $1000 and only produce 100 minis I need to bake $10 into each units cost. If due to the nature of the sculpt I have to pay the artist $1500 to get the level of detail I want then that's $15 per unit to cover it.

So there could be increase in cost both from a materials and a labor per unit aspect that explains the difference. Now, I'm super curious again and going to try to find some solid facts from actual manufacturing sources instead of the nerdy boardgame forums I'd read up on before.


March 2nd, 2018, 11:25 pm
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Ninja Corps
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TheHandsomeDan wrote:
Meankeb wrote:
I think that the price point is primarily driven by the 50mm base. This will be the first release since Iron Golem / Tsudo / Roxor 2.0 in this size, and only of this size in resin I can remember since... King Starfire? I may be crazy on this one, but I don't think so.


That said, this alone doesn't account for the increased cost, right? It's the MOLDS after all, that are so much more expensive, not the materials.

A bigger mold, particularly one with a rather large bulbous shape (a nice rounded walrus) isn't going to wear out faster than a small one -in fact, the shape and size might actually wear out SLOWER than the smaller mini molds would. A large surface area that is overall much smoother than your regular small minis, would generate much less friction, less wear and tear. With a portion of the rider itself being smooth/obfuscated by the walrus, less detail and mold space is required even for him (the most detailed bit of it). In short, it is unlikely that this requires more mold units to manufacture than a smaller one. Sure, it's POSSIBLE that things are laid out in some weirdly inefficient manner, but that's unlikely -the logic by which a mold/sprew should be laid out most efficiently doesn't noticably change based on material differences between resin and plastic.


I'm with you here. They discontinued King Starfire was specifically called out the detail / horns were ruining the mold and they could not continue to produce, at any price point. This mini feels much more (GREAT WORD!) bulbous, and I agree it stands to reason that size isn't completely the the driver. I did sponsor the Dark Souls KS, and their ENORMOUS resin model dragons are $54 each...but it's been 18 months and I'm just now seeing a chance of shipping. I would be willing to offer that we're splitting cost of both a larger mini (compared to Valentine Candy) as well as a quicker delivery because they've already bitten the bullet on production, and that is turning into $40 to turn a decent profit. Mind, I said decent, as I believe they're making profit at this price point. The key difference is that they're saying it's done and available, and might be the most thematically awesome mini they have produced (again...Dwarf...on a Walrus...) and we can all say yes or no and not forestall delivery for two years... It would suck for the cash strapped to pay 50% more to play this game...but if it shows up 300% faster.... I think it is mentioned multiple times below that they need to have a longer-planned, less customized commitment to plastic, entry level cardboard box starters, and reserve the custom, specialized neatos for web-only delivery would be a good idea. Divorcing from the KS culture of free exclusives (which aren't ND's bag anyway!) might be healthy. It does give up the luxury of forwarded capital/pre-order model that CMON uses (THOSE !@#$...oh wait, they're the BEST at it) is a risk for ND.


March 3rd, 2018, 1:53 am
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Minion
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So someone on the KS Comments posted a link to an interesting article someone in the industry had written up a couple years back that explains the process and costs. Though I think the individual posting may have misinterpreted as it seemed to backup the person he was arguing against. It's an interesting read.
http://massiveawesome.com/miniature-myth-busting/

My take away from it: Essentially, on a per unit basis resin is much more expensive than plastic (assuming you are able to sell necessary quantity in either medium to cover costs). Though there's a lot of love for it, I don't think many could argue that SDE is niche. Selling enough individual walrus men to cover plastic mold may not be something they feel like they can count on happening, not to feed into conspiracy theories, but it may also not be something they can afford to risk/afford fronting funds to create with the expectation of selling enough to cover costs and profit. From that angle it seems more fiscally responsible which as someone still waiting on Legends fulfillment I can appreciate /shrug. Especially if they can essentially wait to print a batch until they have enough demand to cover at least the production cost then selling excess for profit.

Back to the Euro distribution, though it's basically the same info from the last time, there was a comment on their FB within the last week saying they are still actively pursuing.


March 3rd, 2018, 4:39 pm
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Denizen
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Resin is cheaper in smaller batches - because the really expensive part of plastic models is the mould. The mould is cheaper for a resin model but the individual unit cost of a resin model is more expensive.

so each individual plastic models costs pennies AFTER you recoup your mould cost etc.


March 3rd, 2018, 9:06 pm
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Minion
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Meankeb wrote:
TheHandsomeDan wrote:
Meankeb wrote:
I think that the price point is primarily driven by the 50mm base. This will be the first release since Iron Golem / Tsudo / Roxor 2.0 in this size, and only of this size in resin I can remember since... King Starfire? I may be crazy on this one, but I don't think so.


That said, this alone doesn't account for the increased cost, right? It's the MOLDS after all, that are so much more expensive, not the materials.

A bigger mold, particularly one with a rather large bulbous shape (a nice rounded walrus) isn't going to wear out faster than a small one -in fact, the shape and size might actually wear out SLOWER than the smaller mini molds would. A large surface area that is overall much smoother than your regular small minis, would generate much less friction, less wear and tear. With a portion of the rider itself being smooth/obfuscated by the walrus, less detail and mold space is required even for him (the most detailed bit of it). In short, it is unlikely that this requires more mold units to manufacture than a smaller one. Sure, it's POSSIBLE that things are laid out in some weirdly inefficient manner, but that's unlikely -the logic by which a mold/sprew should be laid out most efficiently doesn't noticably change based on material differences between resin and plastic.


I'm with you here. They discontinued King Starfire was specifically called out the detail / horns were ruining the mold and they could not continue to produce, at any price point. This mini feels much more (GREAT WORD!) bulbous, and I agree it stands to reason that size isn't completely the the driver. I did sponsor the Dark Souls KS, and their ENORMOUS resin model dragons are $54 each...but it's been 18 months and I'm just now seeing a chance of shipping. I would be willing to offer that we're splitting cost of both a larger mini (compared to Valentine Candy) as well as a quicker delivery because they've already bitten the bullet on production, and that is turning into $40 to turn a decent profit. Mind, I said decent, as I believe they're making profit at this price point. The key difference is that they're saying it's done and available, and might be the most thematically awesome mini they have produced (again...Dwarf...on a Walrus...) and we can all say yes or no and not forestall delivery for two years... It would suck for the cash strapped to pay 50% more to play this game...but if it shows up 300% faster.... I think it is mentioned multiple times below that they need to have a longer-planned, less customized commitment to plastic, entry level cardboard box starters, and reserve the custom, specialized neatos for web-only delivery would be a good idea. Divorcing from the KS culture of free exclusives (which aren't ND's bag anyway!) might be healthy. It does give up the luxury of forwarded capital/pre-order model that CMON uses (THOSE !@#$...oh wait, they're the BEST at it) is a risk for ND.


The shipping part of things is a bit easier on them, as they have the resin minis manufactured here in the states, rather than it being shipped overseas. Then again, that might also explain the truly AWFUL cards that seem to come with them -a weird, flimsy card, with severely over-rounded corners. You'd swear I ran them off a printer myself, they look so bootleg it's not even funny.

These are faster to produce, and the peer-reviewed cost is higher, only because you have to look at it as a distribution of the mould's sunk cost investment. Smaller runs can be done more cost effectively in this material than in plastic so it's a low risk way for SPM to raise some income. Which is probably a good thing, since their products have been on sale or clearance with some of the biggest OLGS chains pretty consistently for months now. I wouldn't mind all that, if they were sticking to the smaller, more reasonably priced models. Hopefully we'll get a reprint of the university three pack, or maybe an RRI crossover of some sort. Probably easier to sell at the $20 price point than the $40 anyway. Doesn't sound like they're shipping a lot of retail product, if any, to stores at the moment... Seems more like the stores are trying to clear their stuff out. If I see RRI hit $20 again, I might bite.


March 5th, 2018, 12:55 pm
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Denizen
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Takoashi bundle was back in stock at least yesterday (placed an order). Nothing I’ve ordered has shipped afaik so...


March 5th, 2018, 2:58 pm
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Mini-Boss
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Takoashi bundle is still out of stock now. You mean the $30 one for all 3 right?


March 5th, 2018, 7:32 pm
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Denizen
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Yes - it looks like it sold out again and the siren is also out of stock. I just got lucky and was clicking around their store and saw it was in stock. I really wish I could get an alert when it's stock or place an order that'll ship once it's in stock.

I got notification that the bundle and the tusk raider shipped today, but tracking doesn't show up yet so hopefully I'm not disappointed.


March 5th, 2018, 10:52 pm
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Minion
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Hopefully if the resin's are to be a constant fixture they set something up to where you can "pre-order" with the knowledge it will be fulfilled once they have enough interest (maybe even an updating gauge to show how close they are to submitting a batch order).


March 6th, 2018, 12:07 am
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Minion
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rudehero wrote:
Hopefully if the resin's are to be a constant fixture they set something up to where you can "pre-order" with the knowledge it will be fulfilled once they have enough interest (maybe even an updating gauge to show how close they are to submitting a batch order).


I wouldn't mind a way to "hold" or combine orders to save on shipment. As it is, the new individual minis each month gets a bit ridiculous, particularly with the way things come and go in status. The Tusk Raider is apparently sold out, but two of the three Takoashi University characters (who were previously sold out) are back in stock again. That shipping could really add up.


March 6th, 2018, 12:29 am
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Denizen
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rudehero wrote:
maybe even an updating gauge .


For those that have been around long enough, remember when we had those for the kickstarter? Hahaha. /cry


March 6th, 2018, 12:09 pm
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Minion
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dsdrew924 wrote:
rudehero wrote:
maybe even an updating gauge .


For those that have been around long enough, remember when we had those for the kickstarter? Hahaha. /cry


"had" is the key word here, because if you go back to those updates, the images are GONE. They were hosted externally from Kickstarter, because Kickstarter doesn't allow creators to edit past updates in any way. I went looking for them some time in December or January and found the updates referring to them, but there are no images to be seen anymore.

Here's the kicker: they weren't simply deleted. Nope, there would have been an error visible in the page if that were the case, a red box with an 'x' where the image was supposed to appear... But there isn't. There's no visual indicator that a problem exists, you could literally miss where they were if you were skimming through to quickly. The images appear to have been replaced with much smaller images containing either transparency or white color to match the page background.

This is an interesting point to take note of. It means that they can't claim that some third party image host shut down, went offline, or deleted their images by some error. The chart images were hosted by them (ND/SPM) on their own domain in the first place, and were edited/replaced with clear intention -because that's one hell of an accidental coincidence to claim happened one time, and just not believable at all to claim accidentally happened to ALL of those charts but nothing else. I'm going to laugh pretty hard if they magically come back, but I've confirmed with a few others that they see the same thing. I've also NEVER heard of this happening on another Kickstarter, nor has anybody in my gaming group, and we all have a bit of a 'problem' in that we each back way more tabletop games than we have any business buying, lol.

Given the company's proven track record for saying something, then claiming they never said that thing until backers pull the quote and exactly when/where SPM DID say that thing, I'm not a huge fan of the fact that these images can or would be effectively and so discreetly removed. Another interesting note, for anyone looking around: the store listing for Legends and it's associated products were pulled offline from the SPM store some time ago -they were there before for review and for late pledges. It would be one thing if they were no longer available for order, but if anything it might be a better idea to let new customers order the product (easier to perform refunds if you're taking in new orders at least).

I'm not saying SPM are con artists, or that they're taking off with our money, or that they're bankrupt, or any of those things -I'm simply saying that these things have occurred, they are somewhat unique actions to this product, and the actions seem sketchy.


March 6th, 2018, 12:46 pm
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Denizen
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people have said that before.. but i can see still them, if we are talking about the same thing..
we are talking about these:
https://ksr-ugc.imgix.net/assets/016/263/157/2a6b7ae0082c2c6f6fd2a30c7cda58c3_original.PNG?w=639&fit=max&v=1492206335&auto=format&lossless=true&s=9b0ed719002522ed27d955a2013b6135 right?

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March 6th, 2018, 12:59 pm
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Minion
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ManicMan wrote:
people have said that before.. but i can see still them, if we are talking about the same thing..
we are talking about these:
https://ksr-ugc.imgix.net/assets/016/263/157/2a6b7ae0082c2c6f6fd2a30c7cda58c3_original.PNG?w=639&fit=max&v=1492206335&auto=format&lossless=true&s=9b0ed719002522ed27d955a2013b6135 right?


Intriguing... Well I'm curious, do you see those inline within the updates, are did you simply find those hosted somewhere? I don't recognize the image host, so I'm wondering if someone saved them? This is especially odd, since others have observed it here, and I've verified it with people in my own social circle, and discovered it myself first hand as well.

It does make me wonder if they were "put back", or if these are just backups stored on the web by some user? I say "put back", because there have been too many people confirming them gone for me to believe they never went away... But it's possible someone could have restored them when the images were mentioned in an earlier posting or comment. To be clear: while it does seem like a stretch that the images could have suddenly AND accidentally been cleared out, then put back quietly, with no questionable intent... It IS possible, and being a possibility, I don't want (or suggest that others should) rule out an honest mistake that was quietly corrected. I may be quick to recall things that are a problem, but I always want to be fair.


March 6th, 2018, 1:09 pm
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Denizen
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in line. Never seen them gone for me.. not cached either.

http://www.TESP.co.uk/SDE/update.png
took a quick screenshot of this one to show. not that a digital image means much but oh well

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March 6th, 2018, 1:15 pm
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Minion
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ManicMan wrote:
in line. Never seen them gone for me.. not cached either.

http://www.TESP.co.uk/SDE/update.png
took a quick screenshot of this one to show. not that a digital image means much but oh well


Here's the thing ManicMan:
Coming from you, a CUSTOMER(not a company representative), it does mean a lot here. Sure, you're usually more quick to defend SPM than you seem like you would be to cry fowl on them -but you're an established user, with a track record for being a reasonable and logically sound person. So yes, your image and your word here hold great value. I appreciate the additional details on that, because it provides me with additional clarity.


March 6th, 2018, 1:20 pm
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Denizen
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^_^ thanks. I have my times when I can.. lose my temper a bit.. who doesn't? but I try to be quite reasonable.

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March 6th, 2018, 1:22 pm
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