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 Legends Update Thread 
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Mini-Boss
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I would say things have been bad for over a year when it comes to very nasty comments.. Through often 'banning' can be seen as much worse then just letting people bury themselves.

but yes, alot of slack.. I think Justin was the only SD only staff member through, so if other things are going on, which can limit commutation time, it happens..

again though, I'm complain at this stupid term 'White knight' that seams to be popping up everywhere.. I don't know when it came to be an such an offencive term but it is an insult non the less... and means bugger all... i point it out to you not to be nasty to you but because.. well, back in the day when forums were all the rage, there use to be rules are a number of large ones i was involved.. one was quite a nice place where one rule was "When things turn to American politics, drop it and run". What it meant that really, up until the 80s, American politics were different then in England. Our Political parties more like to say What they would do if you voted for them, where as in America it was just a slinging match by saying how bad the other one was.. That changed in the 80s and now everyone just spends all there time saying how bad the others and doing more bordering on slander (there was a.. fairly nasty company called 'saatchi and saatchi' that loved that idea and went with it). Also alot of things not about the party or there views, but about the people "Don't vote for that party cause one of there MPs cheated on his GCEs" etc... okay, kinda offence to say American politics was always like that, but.. well, Be alive in 80s UK and you will know about what was called the 'Americanization' of politics.

anyway, yep. I agree people have the right to say and be upset about delays and lack of communication, but I also agree with the right of people to say and be fairly optimistic and i disagree with the right for people to threw verbal (or in this case, written) abuse.. and in some places, it has been. Violence isn't only physical and shouldn't be accepted. I'm not saint (thank god, cause most of them were murderers anyway ¬_¬) so do somethings go to much into written violence.. for which i'm never happy with myself about.. But if we ever get to stage when we can not longer learn and grow, then we are dead. But i like to think the human race isn't at such a point where "We are the dead".

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February 11th, 2018, 10:55 pm
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TheHandsomeDan wrote:

Here's the thing though -Soda Pop Miniatures set that expectation themselves. They have, time and again, set standards for communication and interaction with their backers. When Justin left (not three weeks ago, over a month ago) it was established that Scott was going to take up the reigns interacting with customers. That interaction had been fostering a more positive relationship with those of us waiting for the product to be shipped. Having someone there to answer questions, even if they may be mundane, goes a long way. And in the absence of any employee posting or replying there for the last MONTH, yes, it started to get negative, and at this point some users have even become hostile. In honestly surprised that certain people haven't been banned, but then again if SPM isn't in a place right now (purely speculation, not pretending to 'know' this as a fact) then banning users who have paid for the product would not be advantageous to them, as it means forcing a refund to the user at the same time.

So sure, it's funny how consumers expect to receive exactly what they're told they'll get. It's also funny how failing to do that leads to a more negative consumer base, that can even start to fringe on hostility when left completely unaddressed. It's also funny how we all plunked our money down (the single biggest way to say "I want THIS") for one product, but we're told long after the fund raising campaign ended that apparently we actually wanted something totally different. Nobody took a vote on this, it would have been easy to put up a quick poll so that they could easily get responses outside of the regular beta testing group. I think it's fair to question whether one could have argued that "most" or "all" of us wanted it, had they done that. Who knows, maybe it would have shown us that a majority truly did want the overhaul. We can't really get the same view after the fact. What I'm trying to say here is that yes, some people have gotten demanding -but honestly a lot of the entitled demanding behavior I've seen has been in response to not getting what Soda Pop has promised us themselves. I don't know a lot of people who are happy after being denied the things they've been told they can expect.

Overall, I think that some people are getting way too comfortable on their high horses on both sides of the argument. There are those who have literally started cursing at the company and it's employees regularly -confirming either that the company is literally ignoring us altogether, or that they are so tight on cash that they can't afford to ban someone due to the cost of his refund. The earlier of those two seems evident at the very least. On the other hand, their are some folks in there who have gone into full-on "white knight overdrive" deriding anyone with a potentially different perspective on matters. Neither expression is totally healthy for the community.

I think that with the status of things, it's okay to discuss things in a friendly and civil manner, without insulting each other and without being offended just because someone disagrees. I don't think any game company is wholly good, nor is any wholly evil -except maybe Asmodee (jk). Given a long enough track record, they all do things that make customers happy and upset, and to me it seems foolish to pretend otherwise in either direction. I've thoroughly enjoyed Super Dungeon in it's prior iterations (haven't tried Arena, as I'm not huge on pvp stuff), and I'd like to get more. But whether you are optimistic or pessimistic, I think we can probably agree that there is at least room for some of us to be reasonably upset about the delays and the lack of meaningful updates and communication -I say reasonably, because I don't condone the users who have gone totally hostile towards employees or each other.


Ok so....
-Brevity is a talent. Over explaining usually means someone is trying hard to justify something.
-Development takes time. Delays are commonplace in development projects, especially good ones. To think otherwise is naive.
-To cry loudly, curse, act hostile, make accusations, conspiracy theories and generally act a fool in a public forum because you didn’t get what you want, when you want it is petulant and childish.

I get people are upset. SPM has a “will issue refunds” policy and they apparently aren’t getting refunds out quickly for whatever reason. I don’t begrudge anyone for wanting to bow out. Even I considered it. I’m just saying, there are right and wrong ways to vent frustration and handle business.... and a-holes and conspiracy theorists should just stop breathing air.


February 11th, 2018, 10:57 pm
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Holy Cross wrote:
Ok so....
-Brevity is a talent. Over explaining usually means someone is trying hard to justify something.
-Development takes time. Delays are commonplace in development projects, especially good ones. To think otherwise is naive.
-To cry loudly, curse, act hostile, make accusations, conspiracy theories and generally act a fool in a public forum because you didn’t get what you want, when you want it is petulant and childish.

I get people are upset. SPM has a “will issue refunds” policy and they apparently aren’t getting refunds out quickly for whatever reason. I don’t begrudge anyone for wanting to bow out. Even I considered it. I’m just saying, there are right and wrong ways to vent frustration and handle business.... and a-holes and conspiracy theorists should just stop breathing air.


Hehe, I disagree, there really isn't a right or wrong way to do things, it's really all just subjective, actually.

If it's anything history has taught us, it's believing is seeing: You think people are being 'childish' other people feel justified. It's only until you see things from another perspective other than your own that we can truly get along. Unfortunately, I don't think anyone in this day and age really has the ability to do so. It's the times really. And you're not exempt no matter how old you are. ^_^


February 12th, 2018, 2:12 am
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prodigal_dreamer wrote:
Holy Cross wrote:
Ok so....
-Brevity is a talent. Over explaining usually means someone is trying hard to justify something.
-Development takes time. Delays are commonplace in development projects, especially good ones. To think otherwise is naive.
-To cry loudly, curse, act hostile, make accusations, conspiracy theories and generally act a fool in a public forum because you didn’t get what you want, when you want it is petulant and childish.

I get people are upset. SPM has a “will issue refunds” policy and they apparently aren’t getting refunds out quickly for whatever reason. I don’t begrudge anyone for wanting to bow out. Even I considered it. I’m just saying, there are right and wrong ways to vent frustration and handle business.... and a-holes and conspiracy theorists should just stop breathing air.


Hehe, I disagree, there really isn't a right or wrong way to do things, it's really all just subjective, actually.

If it's anything history has taught us, it's believing is seeing: You think people are being 'childish' other people feel justified. It's only until you see things from another perspective other than your own that we can truly get along. Unfortunately, I don't think anyone in this day and age really has the ability to do so. It's the times really. And you're not exempt no matter how old you are. ^_^



BS


February 12th, 2018, 4:34 am
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Holy Cross wrote:
prodigal_dreamer wrote:
Holy Cross wrote:
Ok so....
-Brevity is a talent. Over explaining usually means someone is trying hard to justify something.
-Development takes time. Delays are commonplace in development projects, especially good ones. To think otherwise is naive.
-To cry loudly, curse, act hostile, make accusations, conspiracy theories and generally act a fool in a public forum because you didn’t get what you want, when you want it is petulant and childish.

I get people are upset. SPM has a “will issue refunds” policy and they apparently aren’t getting refunds out quickly for whatever reason. I don’t begrudge anyone for wanting to bow out. Even I considered it. I’m just saying, there are right and wrong ways to vent frustration and handle business.... and a-holes and conspiracy theorists should just stop breathing air.


Hehe, I disagree, there really isn't a right or wrong way to do things, it's really all just subjective, actually.

If it's anything history has taught us, it's believing is seeing: You think people are being 'childish' other people feel justified. It's only until you see things from another perspective other than your own that we can truly get along. Unfortunately, I don't think anyone in this day and age really has the ability to do so. It's the times really. And you're not exempt no matter how old you are. ^_^



BS


But how can you expect people to see things from your perspective if you won't see it from theirs? :<


February 12th, 2018, 4:55 am
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@Prodigal_Dreamer, you obviously didn’t read my full post.


February 12th, 2018, 5:50 am
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prodigal_dreamer wrote:
But how can you expect people to see things from your perspective if you won't see it from theirs? :<


I can see plenty of things from other perspectives. Doing so doesn't obligate me to change mine. Often it just reinforces it.

It's exactly the same as my favorite response to goth emo kids saying "you don't understand me!". I just say "yes I do, I just don't care".

No one is entitled to have someone else look at things from their perspective. Though it's often not the worst idea for it to happen anyways. But, even if it does happen. Even if someone 100% understands where an opponent is coming from, Why they are and everything else about it, there is no inherent reason, obligation or right for that to change anything anyways.

I try to absorb other viewpoints. But, when someone says "this is bad" and I say "I see that, but here's my view" and the retort is "but, this is bad" all I can do is say "yeah, I get that already". When all I hear is "but, this is still the bad thing" 20 more times...I for one get sick of it and stop meaningful engagement. There's no perspective left to see, nothing more to absorb. Many of the people complaining are just saying the exact same things over and over. The things with merit worth listening to at least. Anything that is "new" perspective is usually baseless rumor, speculation and conspiracy. It's totally worthless and does nothing but serve to raise agitation and aggression and help the angry feel justified because they can make others angrier too. Again, nothing worth engaging with, absorbing or even trying to "see from their perspective".


February 12th, 2018, 11:09 am
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the main "point of view" i can't understand is how alot of the vocal groups are 100% comfirmed that production has yet to start.. while people can debate what they call production, based on various reasons like if they are in such a field, in the same company (it can change from company to company) but.. We have seen Steel Molds. We have seen some test shots, we have seen the white packs which are fairly !SODA! important, we have seen the proof sheets.. these are all parts of production to many companies, but i get it, not all. The stage we haven't seen is mass production (we have seen sample and test production). People are 'claiming' that the manufactor doesn't really mind that they do all the setup, have to store stuff and get machines set up and ready and then just sit there doing nothing.. But they are SOO convinced that production HASN'T started... i just don't understand that.. I see alot of misunderstanding of the age old 'Evidence of absence' aphorism (which states that absense of evidence is not evidence of absence, or in this case 'absense of mass production evidence is not evidence of absence of mass production) but.. i can't see the point of view that production has not started at all.. it's possible that Mass production hasn't started.. but why do people seam SOOO convinced that this is a statement of fact? I really can't understand that.. Can anyone explain it?

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February 12th, 2018, 11:35 am
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ManicMan wrote:
the main "point of view" i can't understand is how alot of the vocal groups are 100% comfirmed that production has yet to start.. while people can debate what they call production, based on various reasons like if they are in such a field, in the same company (it can change from company to company) but.. We have seen Steel Molds. We have seen some test shots, we have seen the white packs which are fairly !SODA! important, we have seen the proof sheets.. these are all parts of production to many companies, but i get it, not all. The stage we haven't seen is mass production (we have seen sample and test production). People are 'claiming' that the manufactor doesn't really mind that they do all the setup, have to store stuff and get machines set up and ready and then just sit there doing nothing.. But they are SOO convinced that production HASN'T started... i just don't understand that.. I see alot of misunderstanding of the age old 'Evidence of absence' aphorism (which states that absense of evidence is not evidence of absence, or in this case 'absense of mass production evidence is not evidence of absence of mass production) but.. i can't see the point of view that production has not started at all.. it's possible that Mass production hasn't started.. but why do people seam SOOO convinced that this is a statement of fact? I really can't understand that.. Can anyone explain it?


I might be able to help here, but I could have sworn you and I have discussed this here, possibly in this very thread. Perhaps I'm thinking of another user. It comes down to a discrepancy in how one defines "production". Those less familiar with taking a product from concept, through development, and all the way to retail, tend to think of production as you and I think of manufacturing. Infeelnquite safe in saying that if you asked a large random sampling of the population what the "production" process means, a very small number of them would tell bring up development, layout, art and design, or writing. (That's here in the United States at least. Just making a leap to the UK can result in the same word occasionally having two wildly different meanings from time to time, and I'm sure that English speakers around the world have similar experiences on at least some scale.) In my experiences online and off, I've found that almost no one considers production to be anything but "mass production", as in manufacturing. Granted, it's still not correct, but it's rather consistent. I make a conscious effort to refer to the exact stage or phase of production intended. Terms like editing, art and layout, or manufacturing are all much more specific, and frankly, useful to conversation. In the context of discussion here, it's safe to say that anyone following the 'production'(correct usage) of SDE 2.0 and Legends understands that the majority of overall production (again, correct usage intended here) is completed -there may be a few tiny bit of editing and some layout work left to be done, but my understanding is that we're essentially at or just coming to the point where manufacturing is all that remains. Looking at the majority of conversations on the subject, that seems to be a widely held view. I don't recall ever once hearing someone try to argue that they haven't worked on rules, art, design, layout, testing, or other major stages prior to manufscturing. -and aside from poorly timed humor, I don't suspect that I will. If the vast majority hold this belief about the status of the project, but still use the term "production" to refer to that which has not yet started... We can safely assume that they've either come down with severe and oddly specific acute amnesia, or that they mean "mass production" or "manufacturing". I agree that it's best to use the more specific term that one intends, but I also feel that we've reached a point where calling people out on the meaning of this specific word in the current context has become a rather semantic argument, and honestly it's hard to even defend the real need for proper clarification, I mean, unless you're angling for the "severe oddly specific acute amnesia" angle. The majority of the time I see it brought up, isn't by people who can't understand what someone is trying to say, it's usually by people who are more interested in pointing out linguistic semantics than contribute something of value to the conversation. The terms that come to mind for that, would be 'elitist', and perhaps 'troll'... And most of the time when I see people halt a conversation to clarify the term, that's about what it boils down to. It's unnecessary, and if one genuinely has good intentions, it's much more constructive to answer the question using the words "manufacturing" or "mass production" for clarity.


I would say that a lot of the actual concern that backers have stems from one of the most frequent and long requested things backers have asked of Soda Pop Miniatures. It's said that "the proof is in the pudding", and in this case the proof that manufacturing is underway will be lots of molded plastic with printed cards and cardboard. If manufacturing is underway it's a well established stsndard practice of crowdfunded games to show some visual evidence of that. I've backed more than 50 Kickstarter projects, all but a few of which are board games, and looking through them, the exception seems to be games that are delivering months earlier than expected or who aren't yet at the manufacturing stage. Its a consistently effective way to create good faith between the creators and the consumers. Sure, "your mileage may vary", but it's a good bet that others who back a lot of games have similar experience. Justin did, on more than one occasion, confirm that manufacturing was not yet underway, and updates with actual progress (though updates have been light on any measurable progress as of late) have not indicated that the lines are rolling physical product for us yet. Fingers crossed that this will change within the next month, since it seems unlikely in the next few weeks.

For how much it would calm the more vocally upset individuals, and reduce the cries for refunds, logic would dictate that showing us an active manufacturing process would be a top priority for this project. It's tough to say for sure from the comments section, but it looks like the rate of refund requests is increasing. Again, it's tough to say for sure what's happening with regard to refund requests. I've seen users indicating they've sent a refund request, and coming back to say they're still waiting for it 60-90+ days later, based on the actual comment dates. It seems that they were processing these requests in a timely manner and recently as September or October, and since then multiple users have reporting them sending an understandably canned response to new requests that says they'll issue a refund "at their earliest convenience", the phrase seems to be associated with users who have waited a prolonged period.

This Wednesday being the last update that one could argue comes before the middle of February is, I believe, the final update after which people can request a refund that may still be honored. The last official cutoff I recall hearing stated mid-February for that. The cynical part of me wonders if the update will consist entirely of revealing the new limited run 'cola SDE mini, 3-5 more alt art cards, and telling us that refunds are now closed. Then again, being Chinese New year, I don't imagine that manufacturing would begin until at least after the scheduled update two more weeks from now.

Aside from all the gloom/gloom/negativity side of things though, can anyone point me toward some good news that might raise a little faith towards real progress on this project? I'm not being sarcastic or anything like that, I'm just trying to better understand the perspective of backers who appear so much more optimistic about the company and the product. Throughout the course of development I've been optimistic and I've been cynical, and while it may not always seem like it, I do try to be open to dissenting opinions and ideas. "The second you stop listening is the second you're a lot more like to be wrong".


As an aside specifically for @ManicMan and whomever else it may relate to, regarding the term "White Knight".
While everyone uses ithe term a bit differently, I don't PERSONALLY see it as an insult in and of itself -to me, it's about context. Someone acting the supposed role of a white knight must genuinely believe they are defending the 'right' party, that's one thing I suspect we can all agree on. And last I checked, that much is admirable. I try not to sling the term around a lot myself, and I usually start any reference to it with quotations, in an effort to disempower any negative effects in those instances. I think someone taking on the White Knight role can potentially be misdirected or take things too far, but I see these people who at the very least, mean well; and I don't personally think the negatively assumed perception of it makes all that much sense logically. One can be misdirected or take things too far from any perspective, it isn't exclusive to feeling that an entity needs to be defended. I have seen the term used in other forums with genuinely positive intent, usually as someone who steps in to diffuse unreasonably tense or negative conversations.

Regardless, I don't believe I've referred to any SPECIFIC users I this way, "[Username here] is a white knight" is definitely not a part of my natural lingo. Admittedly I would say I've seen one or two users between here and the comments page who definitely fit the more extreme end of the term "White Knight", taking it to an abusive and illogical level. Thankfully the abusive types are about as common as those on the other side of the fence, and while feathers do occasionally get ruffled, I haven't specifically felt attacked by either side.


February 12th, 2018, 1:09 pm
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Man, what an update, so much progress, so much actual UPDATING.
But hey, plenty of time to post the preview of their exciting new individual miniature for pre-order on the website! I get that they probably need money, but I think a lot more people would consider giving them more money if we actually got real information from them. Or, maybe at least something that resembles real progress of some sort.

It's time, I'm coining the phrase. They really need to stop Deke-ing us around and passing off flavor text as updates.

Seriously. This week it was Centaurs -a race that isn't actually included in any of the Kickstarter pledge levels or add-ons. They've only ever sold one centaur unit, in a single product, that's been out of print for, what, two years? It borders on even being relevant as flavor text.


February 15th, 2018, 1:16 am
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I am really loving the lore bits, but like you all am still bummed about the lack of a real update. I'm still on board... but it would still be nice to have a date to get excited about. :/


February 15th, 2018, 4:51 am
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At this point I kind of want to reach out to the SPM guys and go, 'what are you thinking?' That update is only going to get people more upset. Nobody wanted flavor text about a race that only has one figure. It's great that there's all this info about this one group, but what am I supposed to do with that when I only have one mini? I could buy a whole bunch of them (if they were not OOP) but they would all still be the same exact figure!

I know, Dan just said that. For once I am completely in agreement with Dan.

I'm not mad. I'm just disappointed.


February 15th, 2018, 6:27 am
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Hi there! You can go on fixthephoto.com to see more tips or just photos of what you want.


February 15th, 2018, 4:21 pm
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February 15th, 2018, 6:26 pm
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InfinityMax wrote:
I'm not mad. I'm just disappointed.

I realize that some of my posts may come across with an angry tone, but that's more a side effect of stubbornly trying to hit every point I find significant... All at once. I haven't looked at an update with anger in.... I've never actually been ANGRY about an update, but I've definitely been unhappy with a lot of them in the last six months.

I don't hate on SPM, I don't want them to fail, and I don't wish Ill on them as a company or as individuals. I recognize that Deke genuinely treasures the fantasy world he has created and built up for us over the years, even going back all the way to the original core game. I value the work Justin clearly put in to taking Deke's epic fantasy concept, and taking the time and effort to really condense that into an experience that is going to be the most playable and enjoyable for us.

Do I have serious concerns? Absolutely, I don't think I need to repeat the details, they're all over my prior posts.
Do I think that SPM created this, or any other crowdfunding campaign to scam or defraud consumers? Absolutely not. If you look back to early posts and updates, interviews with the designer, anything along those lines -it's clear that they set out to make this game, and to make it the very best they could. Regardless of my concerns, or what they may be doing/thinking now, I have no doubt they started this with all the best intentions.

I can't speak for others, but if John, Deke, Justin, or hell even Scott (I know he has had very little involvement in this project), were to return to the promised fashion of communication (promised at the beginning of the campaign, and reiterated at the time of the Starfinder drama)... I would, at the very least, be civil -I might even be supportive, depending on what they had to say. I was supportive the last time they came out with some uncomfortably blunt honesty about the project status, even though it wasn't great news.

At the end of the day, I'm less bothered by the delays than I am about the poor communication. Soda Pop pledged to communicate actively in the comments, and to provide meaningful updates (the written pledge is still on their campaign page, stating weekly). If SPM wants to convince existing (and future) customers that they can be trusted and counted on, they need to prove that they can keep things together even (ESPECIALLY) when things aren't easy. I realize the situation is uncomfortable for them, and that they probably have to play things really close to the chest until a solution is firmly in place for them to announce. If you don't have concrete details, you can be honest about that without bleeding customers -countless game projects have explained delays in a way that people can understand or even relate to. It's not hard to write something that can be honest, informational, and endearing to your consumers if you really want to. Imagine if they had posted something like THIS yesterday instead of fluff that isn't even relevant to anything in the Legends Kickstarter project:

"Unfortunately we haven't started mass production yet. We have been in the process of negotiating with manufacturers to lock down the best possible solution to make this happen as quickly as possible. As many of you know, Chinese New Year brings a lot of board game production to a halt, and that includes negotiating new contracts until the holiday has passed and business returns to normal. In the meantime, we want to let you know that we've reviewed and signed off on (list of components approved), and we are still making final quality adjustments to (list of components not yet approved) with our partners. Here are some pics of physical proofing samples and/or white boxes to show some of our more recent progress.

We understand that you don't like delays, but we want you to know that we don't either. We've worked hard to bring you the best new Super Dungeon experience possible, and we're chomping at the bit to share the fruit of our labor with all of you as backers. We'll be working to get your heros and your dragons rolling fresh off the assembly line just as soon as we possibly can, and we'll let you know about any major events along the way. Thank you for supporting us as we round the final corner of the greatest journey Super Dungeon has ever taken."

That's just tossed together, based on the little bit we do know from what's been said in the past. Obviously I wouldn't want them to lie about progress, but so long as you remember to focus on what you HAVE accomplished recently, there should be something positive and tangible to show advancement. When you're honest and earnest with your customers, and you show them that you're doing what you can to resolve the issues in front of you, it really builds faith with your consumers and your business partners. That sort of approach to communication does so much to make things more positive and supportive even when things aren't looking great.


InfinityMax wrote:
For once I am completely in agreement with Dan.

I... I think I'm going to have to print this out and frame it. Like a certificate of great accomplishment on my wall, so that I can look at it with pride. ^_^


February 15th, 2018, 11:25 pm
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@Dan.... so many words... I try to read them all, then ADD happens 0_o


February 15th, 2018, 11:39 pm
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I skimmed through that block of text and thought that quote was from SPM. That sounded darn good!


February 16th, 2018, 12:36 am
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On one hand, yeah, TheHandsomeDan's faux update would at least be something better than another fluff-date. Less Deke-ing around and more addressing the centaur in the room. (nyuk nyuk)

On the other hand, is there a point where even a negative "more delays happened" update isn't acceptable? It's been two years. We got sent the PDF stuff for...what, everything but Legends? So what are we waiting on for everything else? (I shouldn't have to ask that question, it should have been in the update.) Production on plastic and packaging that hasn't changed since the Starfire debacle over a year ago? That should be shipped and in a darned warehouse by now, especially considering that nothing's being put inside a retail box. We're now waiting on things that can and should have been done while rules changes were being looked at over a year ago. Even if some rules change dictated, "oh, we need different tokens", those should have been produced separately and shipped later when you've got a million-dollar production budget.

Regardless of which hand you're using, you know what's completely freaking unacceptable? A flavor update about centaurs. This is not the action of a company that appreciates the hundreds of dollars that I've invested in them in and outside of the KS, feels like they've done wrong, and wants to "repair trust" (or whatever they said on the Livestream). This is the action of a company that doesn't care. It's reflected in the fact that virtually none of the KS comments on this update are anything other than negative, and even some of the company's staunchest supporters here on the forum are scratching their heads in disappointment. I would really think that after two years of this situation, they'd know better than to put out something this tone-deaf. Crouching behind enchanted shields, indeed.

Someone on the KS comments said, "well, I'm not sure what people expect at this point, all that's happening is factories winding down for CNY". There's still plenty that could be provided as an update. What did SPM/ND and the production company do to lessen the impact of CNY on a project that's already way, way over deadline? What communication has been happening between the two? What's detailed, in-depth information on whatever it is that's been holding things up? Convince me you're not just sitting there on my $300 pledge waiting for either plastic to show up or the rumors about your company going out of business to come true. As backers, we're supposed to have an insider's view on the process of making/producing this game. I know that when I come home from work at the end of the day, even if I had nothing out of the ordinary happen, I still have a ten-minute blurb I can share with my wife. An entire company full of people can't come up with enough "this is what we accomplished" after two weeks of labor to fill an update? Because I hope that centaur fluff wasn't what you've been doing for two weeks.

I don't want a refund, I want SPM/ND to hold up their end of the KS bargain. That means actual information on where the process is at, and it means plastic on my porch.


February 16th, 2018, 2:00 am
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Bottle Cap
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Joined: December 11th, 2015, 6:01 am
Posts: 5
Location: Southampton. UK
I think they have got themselves into a situation where a positive update is almost impossible. I think the game is complete and the delay is literally a red line on the profit/loss account. As soon as it goes above that then they will hit the go button. The target has got to be Gencon. The first and only ship will head to the US and it will go to retail. When they have made enough money the ROW backers will receive theirs. I think the reason they are so slow on the refunds is that they are either very close to their target or very close to bankruptcy. If they go bankrupt I think their IP is pretty worthless. Since this Kickstarter launched the boardgame industry has erupted especially in Dungeon Crawlers. Best candidate has now got to be Cmon to bolster their Chibi range. Best outcome for us a big box of minis. As far as the updates go I think they are stuck. I reckon Justin has gone for good and he was the only one who should be allowed out in public. I've been facepalming the updates for the last year. Then the first live video when I expected them all solemn and contrite and they were just laughing and joking. They really haven't got a clue how to connect with their backers at all.


February 16th, 2018, 11:00 am
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Mini-Boss
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Joined: January 12th, 2015, 4:17 pm
Posts: 803
Location: Brasília, Brazil
So... CMoN never been the best in communication with backers after end of campaigns, but they always deliver the product of their projects with acceptable delays, always have the KS exclusives policy to grab more backers and they never pretended they didn't used KS platform as pre-order platform.

ND/SPM now is a worst version of CMoN.
- No deliver the "reward" of project on acceptable delay and do not report what backers want to know. This last update was the same to says: "HEY, shut up! We already have your money, fools! We don't care about what you want!";
- Use the mantra of KS platform do not is a pre-order, but in fact no one put a penny on KS campaigns if no "reward" exists to motivate to be a backer. GoFundMe is better platform for them;
- Abandoned the policy of no exclusives, no limited products. Personally I don't mind about lost a chance to have a "complete" collection since I don't consider limited/exclusives as part of collection;
- Total incompetence to manage a single project and launch a chain of 5 unfulfilled projects, then they use the excuse of "we are a small team". Silliness!
- Disguise into different accounts on KS platform to launch more projects and use the excuses of "one project don't affect other", "every project have different teams". How dumb they think backers are? They have a staff of eleven or twelve employees and trying to combine the print of different projects to put in a single boat everything in one shot.
- The company already had enough learning time to catch how business works, but looks like they quickly forgot the lessons from the past and did mistakes again. Only passion on their boardgames' worlds can't be enough to sustain it, can't be enough to backers believe they are capable to reach the "happy end" of the projects floating unfulfilled or half-fulfilled.
- Use the policy of "America First" and spit on the face of the RoW backers when leave to next print round to deliver the reward to the "rest" of backers while retailers already selling the products in some cases at equal or below prices than offered during KS campaign. What's the point to stick supporting their projects? For access the novelty exclusive? No thanks!
- Justin made an excellent job on rulebook tweaks, but he was a temporary employee. The core of company have excellent graphic designers, story tellers, but have lacks of good game designers. A nonsense. Soon we'll see Ninja All-Stars 2.0 KS project follow the same rail of their other franchises, just because the company's game designers don't have enough skills to make their games candidates of awards or top seller in the first attempt. When Deke said "you got me a lot to think" about rulebooks, the best path could be cancel the project, return the money to backers and back to drawing board, internal 3 years of playtest and only then re-launch the KS campaign.

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Last edited by Nephastus on February 16th, 2018, 1:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.



February 16th, 2018, 1:29 pm
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