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 Legends Update Thread 
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Mini-Boss
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Here is how I interpreted it. You can either start from scratch and build your hero from the ground up, or you could start with a pre-existing hero (or job) and go on from there. I imagine that if you start from scratch, you would have complete control on how you build your character. You can choose what their stats are, crystal affinity, starting abilities, innate skills, etc. I'd assume these would be point based, so you have a limit on how powerful your starting character is. Once you have the base hero figured out, you can choose a job. It mentioned that you can get a special ability for choosing a job that fits in your class. If it's a scratch built hero, I would imagine you could pick one of the abilities off of the hero's card whose Job you are taking. That's how you could end up with a Sister of Light with just Purification as her one skill. If you don't want that you can just skip that and pick a regular hero card to use.

Choosing a class has rules, and after that you get some freedom. First you need to go by what they attack with. So a hero like the Royal Paladin is obviously STR based. What about a Deeproot Scout though who can attack with STR and DEX? Could they choose two different paths? So a Royal Paladin is a Paladin Class, but a Deeproot Scout could be either a Barbarian or Ranger. This would make the most sense, as they already said their intention was not to change the cards. It would suck if now there had to be a "Class" designation on the cards too. I suppose this means our Royal Paladin could also take a different path and be a Black Knight or Fighter as well. The Legends books would for sure have all the current heroes with their "official" Class, but what about new releases? There would have to be some wiggle room for you the player to decide.


April 29th, 2017, 3:04 pm
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Rather than writing on paper, someone on the KS board suggested classes, abilities etc could be in a printed/sticker format for the laminated board. Similar to Shadowrun : Crossfire. As someone who plays Shadowrun : Crossfire quite often, I think this is a great idea, it Keeps the character board looking nice as opposed to filled with sloppy hand writing, and can make it less tedious than copying everything down manually.

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April 29th, 2017, 3:17 pm
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Minion
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I can't be the only one on the edge of my seat for when legends really start to take some form. I mean besides the fact that this is the main chunk of the reason 99% backed the Kickstarter. This thing hangs in the balance, I think legends is going to be the best thing to happen to this game or the worst. I know that sounds all dramatic but its true. I don't see there being any middle ground for this. What I have seen thus far gives me hope, but we know to little to really draw an opinion. I still do hope it becomes, (at least what i perceived) what the Kickstarter was alluding too, that legends is some kinda of pen and paper rpg-lite.

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April 29th, 2017, 4:59 pm
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To be honest I backed because I loved super dungeon one I first saw the first edition. The minis are so !SODA! amazing.
I'm expecting Legends to be like Mice and Mystics but even better. :)
Also I would like to suggest the idea of having a Dashboard in which you place the current hero and treasure cards with
an exclusive space where you can place the custom abilities (The idea of the stickers is excellent) of the hero we make.
I'll drop an example of the Dashboard I'm thinking of once I finish it :)


April 29th, 2017, 5:13 pm
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Minion
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I was really looking forward to the whole choosing skills based on crystal affinity and class rank. Make your own hero does allow some to get their ninja all stars models in though.


April 29th, 2017, 5:16 pm
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Quote:
I still do hope it becomes, (at least what i perceived) what the Kickstarter was alluding too, that legends is some kinda of pen and paper rpg-lite.


Agreed, If I wanted an RPG , I'd chose 5th Ed DnD for sure. The problem with 5e for my wife, peers is that it can be too much to assimilate at once, even if it is the "easiest" DnD ever.

It would be perfect if this were a "DnD Lite" , a means of drawing people into the world of PnP minus the burdensome complications such as tracking encumbrance, fatigue, etc that can bog down gameplay.


Sodapop would have really filled a niche of they can get this right.

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Last edited by Jazz Paladin on April 29th, 2017, 5:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.



April 29th, 2017, 5:34 pm
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Minion
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If I understood this week's update correctly...

1- We're multiple weeks from seeing Legends beta starting... The little Q&A game they set can rise some questions on where they are and what they are doing, after all the strange things we've seen past weeks (yes, like all those copy-paste odd errors...)

2- Hard to believe that this delay isn't known for at least two weeks. Why do we learn it only now, when we finaly reach the deadline and a lot of us is in full expectation?

3- The BG for legends is supposed to be written, and as I understood things, it's part of the beta, too. So why haven't they launch that at least?


As a lot of people (I think) I'm glad to have finally something about Legend to read. But it's much less that what have been expected. A disapointment again... Yeah, I'm more and more disapointed by how things are handled... I know it's part of a Kickstarter, I accept that. But nothing comply me to back things from them in the future. And that's what's in the balance now...

As a note : If the BG wasn't meant to be part of the beta release, it could be a great idea to do it!! It could compensate the totally Legend empty year we've been through and the new delay for the rules...


April 29th, 2017, 5:39 pm
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Consul
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Quote:
Also I would like to suggest the idea of having a Dashboard in which you place the current hero and treasure cards with
an exclusive space where you can place the custom abilities (The idea of the stickers is excellent) of the hero we make.

Oh no! Stickers are almost even worse than the markers!
Stickers makes it a very "final" or "limited" thing. If pray God this game becomes excellent I plan to play it a lot.
That means making and remaking a whole lot of characters. I don't see stickers go hand in hand with this.
On one hand you'd need a huge sheet to cover everything. You'd also need multiple of every sticker.
While printing a character sheet should be a simple affair, printing a sticker sheet is quite another beast to handle.

I hope it either goes pure pnp old school character sheet - or it becomes entirely card based somehow.

I dislike the idea of laminated cards and markers in part because I fear they will get scratched and dirty in time.
I also fear the writing will smudge unto other components.

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April 29th, 2017, 8:02 pm
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Don't get me wrong, the stickers issue remains a contentious and debatable matter in the Shadowrun : Crossfire game implementation...

I know I was one of the ones who scoffed at the idea of "permanently" marring your character sheet , but there are ways around it to it work wonderfully.

For example, the stickers themselves are a good, laminated quality to begin with. It is easy to stick them onto a bit of construction paper, cut out the decal, then laminate it again to make the piece look good. The extra lamination makes it easy to simply skotch tape the piece to the lamininated character board in a less destructive manner, as the pieces are consequently very easy to remove and replace. And if you don't want to use the original stickers, you can just photo copy the sticker sheet and do the same thing.

And if they really want to emulate the 80's culture, they should make them scrath'n'sniff stickers. Just think of how "powerful" that dragon-dung confetti ability will be, then! ;)

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April 29th, 2017, 8:52 pm
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Minion
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We're in the digital age, people, just do what everyone else does: Take a picture with our phone and just dry erase it to keep it clean.


April 29th, 2017, 10:05 pm
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Goblin-King wrote:
Quote:
Also I would like to suggest the idea of having a Dashboard in which you place the current hero and treasure cards with
an exclusive space where you can place the custom abilities (The idea of the stickers is excellent) of the hero we make.

Oh no! Stickers are almost even worse than the markers!
Stickers makes it a very "final" or "limited" thing. If pray God this game becomes excellent I plan to play it a lot.
That means making and remaking a whole lot of characters. I don't see stickers go hand in hand with this.
On one hand you'd need a huge sheet to cover everything. You'd also need multiple of every sticker.
While printing a character sheet should be a simple affair, printing a sticker sheet is quite another beast to handle.

That would be the case if you were placing the stickers on a normal card stock Hero card, I was thinking on a surface that would
be easy to remove them that's why I'm suggesting a Dashboard, in this case laminated. Also I think the point of Legends is so that anyone can create
their own version of the Hero the choose so a "limited" thing is a good thing. Another thing would also be that you could print them on sticker paper, cut them
to shape and then place the stickers on thick card stock or something, that way it wouldn't be a permanent thing :)
but this is just my suggestion, I'm certain someone else can come up with something better than the sticker thing.
I don't really like the idea of the markers even if the are erasable haha.

Here is my example:
Image


April 29th, 2017, 10:09 pm
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Yes permanency with stickers may be an issue. That's why I would probably print the hero sheets and put stickers into them or print skills in A4, cut & glue if a supplemental pdf was provided. There also exists removable stickers. The idea is that stickers had skill descriptions. It's cumbersome to write name and check from rulebook. Skills could also be printed to cardboard and design hero board to have intended places for them if possible (not necessary to be intended). I'll always bag hero stuff after the game. Cards may still be the most elegant solution. Everyone has their personal advancement decks constructed and don't need to wait and share rulebook to be able to make their choice during the game. However considering the amount of skills, printing cardboard components and cards for everything may end up being expensive to produce.

I am starting to have a feeling that the most practical hero build and advancement system would limit the possible options a little. Let the player choose an existing hero (there exists at least 50+ heroes so already a lot of variety). Then make choices like DEX/Spirit -> You get an advancement deck based on these choices. Then select a job -> get secondary advancement deck. These decks are close to the ones planned for the rulebook. Player will spent xp cumulated from scenarios to learn new skills from these decks. Higher level skills require more xp similar to Descent. The downside of this system is that one cannot freely modify their starting hero or use Ninja All-Stars heroes (which is a great idea) as their models, but from gameplay perspective the varied/personal advancement decks just might work the best.


April 30th, 2017, 4:08 am
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It would be nice to get a little more detail on exactly HOW advancement is gonna work before discussing the implementation.
Just something like how many extra abilities the hero's gonna pick up is important in deciding what's the best way.

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April 30th, 2017, 5:32 am
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nakano wrote:

I am starting to have a feeling that the most practical hero build and advancement system would limit the possible options a little. Let the player choose an existing hero (there exists at least 50+ heroes so already a lot of variety). Then make choices like DEX/Spirit -> You get an advancement deck based on these choices. Then select a job -> get secondary advancement deck. These decks are close to the ones planned for the rulebook. Player will spent xp cumulated from scenarios to learn new skills from these decks. Higher level skills require more xp similar to Descent. The downside of this system is that one cannot freely modify their starting hero or use Ninja All-Stars heroes (which is a great idea) as their models, but from gameplay perspective the varied/personal advancement decks just might work the best.


I agree with you. I think this system will be a good option


April 30th, 2017, 7:59 am
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Minion
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I still prefer a affinity system over a hard job class system. From what I noticed it should be pretty simple just to base abilities on affinity and you wouldn't need very many cards as well maybe 50 with a initial release then if they feel the need to add more it could be released in ability packs.

If I noticed anything right from affinities it is like this.

Citrine (Strong like the Earth) - Physical characters, a mixture of strength and armor
Ruby (Passionate like the Fire) - Mage based characters, will and healing are grouped
Emerald (Silent like the Wind) - Stealth, Rogue type characters, range and dex are their forte
Sapphire (Versatile like the Water) - Characters that can support different roles

Sapphire was kinda hard to pinpoint, but with a simple system like this it is entirely easy to design around. In all honesty sometimes less is more, you don't need a huge complicated job system when you could do something as simple as this. Also it allows for tons of customization, but fits with a theme as well, and if you need to add more card packs are still very viable.

Ember Mage is actually Ruby/Cirtine but it seems she is the only character that really falls off from this affinity list. Maybe she has monstrous strength the no one has discovered yet?


April 30th, 2017, 10:23 am
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Minion
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TBH...hearing that SPM might drop the Hero cards and have custom "starter" jobs is good news, in my opinion. Just look at the picture Mangeluz posted above: how powerful is Shadow-Mode Candy as a base hero? A powerful AoE attack/root, a healing attack, a board wide teleport! Base stats are good too, which will only go up as you get more items. Thats an insane level of ramping-up, and if you use the base SDE rules your looking at supped up heroes rocking 4 treasures each after 3-4 games! How do you gauge the monsters to combat this? Giving them +2 ARM or such isnt going to cut it if every hero is rolling 3B,3R and 1G for each attack!
There are so many problems with trying to implement an RPG system when you have very powerful, predefined characters as they mentioned in the update:

Quote:
What worked for Classic wouldn’t work for Arcade. What worked for Arcade didn’t work for the RPG elements we wanted. Progression (leveling) across 50+ unique Heroes was too cumbersome or too bland, when applied across even more monsters….wow…. Super Dungeon, over its short lifespan has become a massive game world, and we build new stuff constantly. Eventually, the Legends rules-tower was a tall unstable behemoth. So I tore it down.

SDE is, by design, a game to be played in singular instances and is impossible to crowbar a campaign system to string together games! I see people mention Descent and (in the KS commnets) Shadows of Brimstone; both of these games were built from the ground up with weak starter characters that evolve and progress as you play and win or (as in most times I have played Brimstone) lose.

As for other means to represent your character:

-Laminate sheets: no...nope.....nada....nein! All it takes is one misplaced hand to cause you to have to wash your characters abilities off your skin. Same goes for accidentally placing some Loot cards on top of it.
-Stickers: I know Legacy games are the new hot ticket in boardgaming (I am 40 hours away from backing Gloomhaven) but even it uses it sparingly for characters, just small ones placed onto cards. All extra abilities or such come in the form of new cards or filling in a character sheet.....which segues nicely onto..
-Blank paper character sheets: DING DING we have a winner! Pencil + paper has worked so well for decades in RPGs, no need to reinvent the wheel. Ninja All Stars even came with a pad of team sheets and that has far less progression than this will.
-Ability cards: they can be nice, I have the old World of Warcraft BG and it comes with 9 unique decks of Ability and Talent cards for the 9 classes. Problem would be the sheer number of them: even dividing into 12 decks for the Classes, and then into tiers (so your level 1 Mage cant learn Firestorm from the off), you are looking at either several hundred for variety (and thats not even accounting for any unique Job themed cards that might be included) OR very limited progression within a Class, leading to very cookie cutter characters later on.


April 30th, 2017, 10:42 am
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Minion
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I thought we had to exchanged all items for crystals after the mission? I know that giving monsters say a hard +2 or something of that sense doesn't always work, but their are other ways for monsters to gain power such as more hit points, new skills along with other things that doesn't require all the book keeping that will be needed.

It will be hard to balance things out as you said in a above post, we have some powerful predetermine characters and as such not everyone will be balanced. Although even if they do choose to do a class system it could still be broken down into three classes, four if you want to divide mage and healer. You do lose some uniqueness of some classes. Then again you could always look at FFRK for the way they work their skills, each character can equip skills from different categories. This is more based on their role in battle than anything else.

I think alot of people want something streamlined then having alot of downtime and not having to keep tons of book keeping. If using a tedious system why would I not just use the miniatures and go to a system that has been working for years? (not trying to sound rude, sorry if I come off like that.)


April 30th, 2017, 12:08 pm
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Samgillians wrote:
I thought we had to exchanged all items for crystals after the mission?


But that again is part of SDE I think they are mentioning in my quote above; part of the mechanics that they tried to fit into an RPG but it wouldnt work. Why would you trash your loot & treasures between missions?

"Aha, I have acquired the Sword of Eternal Winter, with which I can summon ferocious blizzards to freeze all our foes...oh what....boss is dead? "
*snaps sword across a stone*
*throws shards into upgrade Mages cauldron*
"Give us +1R to me Str there, luv..."

I see this as being one of the elements of the KS idea for Legends being removed or reworked. Might be easier to just have enemies drop the crystal shards i place of Loot, and draw back the doling out of items in general so opening a chest and nabbing a nice sword is a big deal as opposed to just reefing it into your bag to be ground into dust afterwards. Also adds a currency system and other options (meeting a peddler in the depths, or a statue that will open a shortcut if you give it the required shards).


April 30th, 2017, 12:58 pm
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Could be they don't want to do that. It really is complicated no matter how you look at it. Meaning that legends will have to be revamped from the ground up no matter how its looked at, even down to gear. Acquiring a amazing item in the first mission is about the same as having over powered characters. The loot system seems much better, loot crystals, trade crystals. Everything has a cost, but then we move into a game where we have to look at a off-hand guide to see the cost of items, which will need to be upgraded each time a item is released. Also breaking down the items into crystals at the end of the mission will yield the same result, needed a guide to show what you receive for the item.

I fear that this will be a cumbersome system, I really hope not as it has so much potential. I just hope we don't receive news in 2 more months saying they had to break it down again and start over. Just want them to build a system where things can be integrated into seamlessly and polished well without bogging down everything else.


April 30th, 2017, 1:14 pm
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I think it's way too early to speculate (but just on time to baselessly speculate wildly? :P)

I, for one, am happy to see the inference to something deeper and more expansive than Warhammer-Quest-but-with-catgirls. I love character generation, in general. I'll make concept characters for games that will probably never get played just to exercise those muscles.

But, I'm not really going to try and figure out what that update means for all the specific rules and implications on loot and all that...because it's basically impossible. Speculation may be fun. But I get a vibe from some of the posts that they are inferring stuff and then getting upset about it...when there's nothing there to support the inference in the first place. That will just make yo angry for (maybe?) no reason!


April 30th, 2017, 2:26 pm
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