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Mini-Boss
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you mean, when the parent says "No, you can't have a horse", it's not because the parent is a nasty person trying to make the childs life a complete hell and they aren't the worse parent in the world? say it isn't so ^_^ But people will still say they are going to call child services and want to throw all of there toy horses out of there crib because they are just fakes which are insulting because they can't get the real thing..

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May 21st, 2018, 12:21 pm
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Denizen
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@Manicman - I don't follow your analogy at all, haha. but I think I'm on the same page.

@Jestor - I think everyone can agree there IS a reason SPM hasn't given a full explanation. What varies is what folks *think* the reason is since I think we can all agree, there has not been full transparency. However, I personally do think there is a good reason for lack of transparency, likely along the lines you mentioned, which is to protect the business and industry partners from a public ND/SPM cannot rely on to be sympathetic (regardless of why), but this is not in the best interests of the backers.

Right now, the official explanation is 'issues with production'. This is vague enough to encompass a whole boatload of potential root causes (none mutually exclusive), which all boil down to 'production is not complete, potentially not started, and no committed hard/soft ETA'.

Of course, for folks that don't accept this as a sufficient explanation/trust SPM's communication (which I think both are justified), there is the THEORY that ND/SPM is going bankrupt *or* not planning to fulfill the project and using delay tactics.

As you noted, normally a company would cut ties/not sell to customers that slander them/threaten their business/threaten them/anything that breaks code of conduct. *Normally* a company would refund those backers to remove their voice (at least from the KS comments/update page), which they have done publicly with @Growley as a special consideration, which is likely insulting to everyone that is in the refund queue and is *not* being vocal and waiting as requested.

It's the lack of refunds that I think is fueling the theory that ND/SPM is going bankrupt/unable to deliver. If refunds were going out, then there would a lot less noise on KS, yes, and theoretically satisfy the folks that are vocally bashing ND/SPM on every public outlet? Are you theorizing that the market share of negative backers/those that want refunds is too high for ND/SPM to afford to refund and thus that's why they aren't going out?

I mean, folks are not disappointed/upset/toxic @ ND/SPM over nothing. I think folks can be made to better understand the situation ND/SPM is in, but I'm not sure there's one where the backers *should* be sympathetic. Definitely more cordial/act like sentient humans, but I don't think the lack of communication is the right solution/answer unless it's a matter of sufficient resources b/c the cost has/is literally SPM's reputation. I don't know how many bridges they've burned and whether it'll be worth it in the end and I dearly hope that my bridge is nowhere near the fire.


May 21st, 2018, 3:12 pm
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Mini-Boss
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The refund problem is .. well, causing a problem with some, but there are also of ex-backers WITH refunds which are still ffing and blinding at the company publically.

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May 21st, 2018, 4:01 pm
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Ninja Corps
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ManicMan wrote:
The refund problem is .. well, causing a problem with some, but there are also of ex-backers WITH refunds which are still ffing and blinding at the company publically.


THat's, genuinely, one of the most childish things I see. The trolls (because that's absolutely what they are) that just come to stir up crap and remind everyone they have refunds, but can still talk crap afterwords. They bring less to the conversation and situation than a poop stick...a poop stick with racist ideas. It would really be nice if there was a function to actually remove people from the kickstarter for that reason alone.


May 21st, 2018, 4:30 pm
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Moderator Ninja
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One thing to keep in mind on refunds. Not only is a lot of the money already spent paying for tooling costs etc but they actually lose money on a refund because kickstarter keeps their share.


May 21st, 2018, 5:13 pm
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Denizen
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Another thing to keep in mind on refunds is that the announcement of the refund cutoff should have come as a surprise to absolutely nobody. When that update came out and said 'OK, refunds are closed,' it was not the first time they had mentioned a closing window for refunds. I actually read that and thought, 'wait, refunds were still available until today?' I wasn't particularly concerned - I didn't want a refund, and would have been rather upset to have my money instead of my huge box of toys - but I just assumed the window had closed, given how many times they had warned that it would.

The announcement was basically one more excuse for the rabid lunatics to foam at the mouth. They were always going to get closed at some point. They had to. It's how preorders work (I know, KS is not a preorder system, as this campaign has clearly proven, but we did 'preorder' a bunch of stuff even if we got to have a hand in deciding what it looked like).


May 21st, 2018, 7:06 pm
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Denizen
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Ah, I didn't realize that if you got the refund that you weren't removed from the KS and could still make comments. That's really silly, but I guess that is also to prevent abuse by the KS creator? I guess I would want to not get updates from a KS if I got a refund from the pledge, but yes, there does seem to be a lot of folks with a lot of time to air their grievances every update. It would be interesting to know/see what the breakdown of the original backers have requested refunds, vs. received refunds, etc.

@Jestor - That's a fair/good point. I was going to write more, but then realized I was beating the same horse (poor horse!).

Ultimately, I think we can agree that there is a lot of unfair/inaccurate criticism of ND/SPM, but there is ALSO a lot of very fair and accurate criticism.

I want ND/SPM to succeed, but it does get harder to root for them when they make so many public mistakes and get hassled for it. It does make one wonder what mistakes they've made in private?

On the flip side, I don't think backers are necessarily entitled to this info nor is a business obligated to share this info. So it comes back to voting with dollars, i.e. requesting refunds.

=======================

@InfinityMax - same here. I don't...get....how folks have so much energy to be actively upset about it. Kind of makes me afraid of other SDE fans.


May 21st, 2018, 7:16 pm
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Mini-Boss
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[quote="sleepy_laughter"]Ultimately, I think we can agree that there is a lot of unfair/inaccurate criticism of ND/SPM, but there is ALSO a lot of very fair and accurate criticism. [quote]

Yep. Wait, isn't this kinda the way with pretty much everything in life?

and to Maxy, yep. They said there was a cut off date when it first started. They then closed refunds at a set point. They then decided due to changes made, to reopen both them and the pledge manager. then they closed the manager, and later the refunds. Nothing new, nothing unexpected.

but we are just going to go around in circles with this. I tried to point out many of these facts a little while back.. lasted.. five minutes?

it's kinda a shame I can't post some of the KS comments here and explain what's totally wrong with some of them (things like claiming there is a major problem that one factory is quicker then other factory etc).. and some of the mindless abuse.. once in a while, I think there is some abuse with a mind behind it, but debatable for a number of bits..

oh but bare in mind, if you can't think of anything but one option, that one option MUST be the truth and anyone that claims otherwise is a liar. ^_^

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May 21st, 2018, 7:43 pm
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Mini-Boss
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sleepy_laughter wrote:
Ah, I didn't realize that if you got the refund that you weren't removed from the KS and could still make comments. That's really silly, but I guess that is also to prevent abuse by the KS creator?
As far as I understand it's because the refund isn't done through Kickstarter. A creator can have a backer kicked out of a project prior to funding but it requires a full refund, including Kickstarter's cut, to do it after.


May 21st, 2018, 8:49 pm
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Mini-Boss
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kinda. Kickstarter does not issue refunds. All the money (bar fees) go to the creator when it's funded.

Kickstarter also says that for creators "You can refund individual pledges if you want" (there is no obligation) and "After your project has been funded, you can cancel and refund a backer's pledge at any time. if you do, you have no further obligation to that specific backer, and no agreement exists between you."

also bare in mind some other rules:
"The estimated delivery date is the creator's Estimate. The date listed on each reward is the creator’s estimate of when they will provide the reward — not a guarantee to fulfill by that date. The schedule may change as the creator works on the project. We ask creators to think carefully, set a date they feel confident they can work toward, and communicate with backers about any changes. "

problem with Kickstarter, is despite "Transparency is an essential part of Kickstarter", there information isn't quite as transparent as it should be ¬_¬ unless you call having to dig through tons and tons of block text and links to find something transparent..

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May 21st, 2018, 9:06 pm
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Mini-Boss
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ManicMan wrote:
kinda. Kickstarter does not issue refunds. All the money (bar fees) go to the creator when it's funded.

Sorry, didn't mean that KS does the refund but rather that SPM would need to have KS boot the backer, which would obligate SPM to do a full refund, at least as far as I understand. So SPM would have to pay to get rid of the backer.


May 21st, 2018, 10:00 pm
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Mini-Boss
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no, no problem, I didn't think you suggested it, I was probably a bit more unclear my side.

and technically, even if they did a full refund (even covering all the money taken out by Kickstarter and the payment platform, it still wouldn't do the job.. though it would be more right for ground to get rid of them.. kinda need someone with a KS (as a creator) to check I think..

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May 21st, 2018, 10:04 pm
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I originally asked for a refund then canceled the request, even though it looks like a risky thing to do.

It's not about the money, I really wish to get their product actually, but I'm also concerned about this line.
The huge delays and the "production" issue make me believe they're trying to cut production costs as much as possible, and eventually deliver a low quality product (rather than not delivering), due to financial issues within the company.

They already did something similar with the Sci-Fi Wild West game, and many backers were displeased with the final product.

I hope to be proven wrong, as I do not wish for this company to fail and not deliver the product. Hopefully the next update will be substantial instead of a lore one that I tend to skip.


May 22nd, 2018, 2:43 am
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Noll wrote:
I originally asked for a refund then canceled the request, even though it looks like a risky thing to do.

It's not about the money, I really wish to get their product actually, but I'm also concerned about this line.
The huge delays and the "production" issue make me believe they're trying to cut production costs as much as possible, and eventually deliver a low quality product (rather than not delivering), due to financial issues within the company.

They already did something similar with the Sci-Fi Wild West game, and many backers were displeased with the final product.

I hope to be proven wrong, as I do not wish for this company to fail and not deliver the product. Hopefully the next update will be substantial instead of a lore one that I tend to skip.


They have also delivered Way of the Fighter after even rail raider and it was high quality and good (at least in my opinion). They havn't done the side minis yet. BUt they wenty out of their way to get the actual game out to people in it's entirety.

I don't know why you would call not getting a refund "risky" in all honesty. Not as an attack on your stance or anything. But, they have never failed to deliver a product. The lowest quality products they have delivered (some stuff in the original relic knights run) is arguably far less their fault than CMON who they had to take a turd from and polish it. And actually did a fairly decent job, at least. But, everything was delivered still. The delays from the original estimated date are extremely reasonable considering the 90 degree veer from the planned course things took after the kickstarter closed.

As has been said many times. their communication could be better. I don't deny that. But I also don't feel as extraordinarily entitled to know every detail of everything going on at the same time. I don't need to know the brand of toilet paper that was used the day they called a factory about some banal thing, and I certainly don't need it with transcripts and directors commentary on why everything was said how it was said and then reassurance as to how all of this magnanimously serves only the backers because that's who everything should orbit around forever always (a bit of hyperbole, but that's the sense I get from so many of the screaming banshees in the KS comments). But, even bad communication seems like no reason to say it's "risky" to not get a refund. That comment does confuse me.


May 22nd, 2018, 2:52 am
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Hello Usagi!

By risky I mean that I'm not 100% sure I will receive this product anymore, or that I will receive what was advertised originally.
I decided to stick on it and eat the risk, that's it.

To be honest, I hope to be wrong, because in the end I just wish to get the game, and I hope SodaPop gets out of this situation, bring the game to the shelves and survives whatever issue they're having, otherwise the brand won't survive them.

The bad communication hinted troubles within the company/the health of the company. As I wrote in the backer forum back in January/February, I wish they just dispelled the various gloom and doom posters themselves, not by fighting them, but by giving official statements.

I read the KS chat almost everyday (although I rarely post anything), and I think you can see for yourself what people are discussing there.


May 22nd, 2018, 8:17 am
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Usagi wrote:
They have also delivered Way of the Fighter after even rail raider and it was high quality and good (at least in my opinion). They havn't done the side minis yet. BUt they went out of their way to get the actual game out to people in it's entirety.


Sadly, not true. I am still waiting for my copy of Way of the Fighter to arrive and am now wondering if I'll ever receive it. Ditto with Rail Raiders. My faith in ND/SPM has never been lower!


May 22nd, 2018, 9:10 am
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Mini-Boss
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Oh, technically, it's not going to be what was advertised originally.
The pet figures have been expanded into a full add-on with more figures (the original FK pets), a new tile, and a new creep (token version)
A second Starfire figure was added to a number of people (King Starfire)
Midnight tower has been expanded into the arcade add-on set but I don't think anything has really been added there apart from more cards
New alt profiles for figures have been added.

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May 22nd, 2018, 9:29 am
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Vampifan wrote:
Usagi wrote:
They have also delivered Way of the Fighter after even rail raider and it was high quality and good (at least in my opinion). They havn't done the side minis yet. BUt they went out of their way to get the actual game out to people in it's entirety.


Sadly, not true. I am still waiting for my copy of Way of the Fighter to arrive and am now wondering if I'll ever receive it. Ditto with Rail Raiders. My faith in ND/SPM has never been lower!

Game fulfillment on Way of the Fighter is complete. If you have not gotten a game yet and you were due one, I would contact them.


May 22nd, 2018, 10:33 am
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Noll wrote:
Hello Usagi!

By risky I mean that I'm not 100% sure I will receive this product anymore, or that I will receive what was advertised originally.
I decided to stick on it and eat the risk, that's it.

To be honest, I hope to be wrong, because in the end I just wish to get the game, and I hope SodaPop gets out of this situation, bring the game to the shelves and survives whatever issue they're having, otherwise the brand won't survive them.

The bad communication hinted troubles within the company/the health of the company. As I wrote in the backer forum back in January/February, I wish they just dispelled the various gloom and doom posters themselves, not by fighting them, but by giving official statements.

I read the KS chat almost everyday (although I rarely post anything), and I think you can see for yourself what people are discussing there.

The Kickstarter comments have turned into a psychotic feeding frenzy. They're not an indicator of general sentiment, nor of mental stability.

I am absolutely confident that our games are coming. It would be absurd to keep spending time and money to get the product out the door. It would be pointless to post any updates (even lore) if they weren't still working.

The delay was a direct result of redesigning the rules, effectively from scratch. They weren't a result of mismanagement, malfeasance or financial instability. The game is going to come, and it's going to be better than it would have been without the delay.


May 22nd, 2018, 2:41 pm
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InfinityMax wrote:
Noll wrote:
Hello Usagi!

By risky I mean that I'm not 100% sure I will receive this product anymore, or that I will receive what was advertised originally.
I decided to stick on it and eat the risk, that's it.

To be honest, I hope to be wrong, because in the end I just wish to get the game, and I hope SodaPop gets out of this situation, bring the game to the shelves and survives whatever issue they're having, otherwise the brand won't survive them.

The bad communication hinted troubles within the company/the health of the company. As I wrote in the backer forum back in January/February, I wish they just dispelled the various gloom and doom posters themselves, not by fighting them, but by giving official statements.

I read the KS chat almost everyday (although I rarely post anything), and I think you can see for yourself what people are discussing there.

The Kickstarter comments have turned into a psychotic feeding frenzy. They're not an indicator of general sentiment, nor of mental stability.

I am absolutely confident that our games are coming. It would be absurd to keep spending time and money to get the product out the door. It would be pointless to post any updates (even lore) if they weren't still working.

The delay was a direct result of redesigning the rules, effectively from scratch. They weren't a result of mismanagement, malfeasance or financial instability. The game is going to come, and it's going to be better than it would have been without the delay.


This is also how I see it. It seems difficult to not see it this way if you pull back from emotions and look at the chronology and actual events of this kickstarter.


May 22nd, 2018, 3:29 pm
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