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 Legends Update Thread 
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Mini-Boss
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Update #129:
"We should all track them down at the next convention they are at and take our money back from them. In whatever form of payback we want"


Oh and it seams everyone has proof that the office move hasn't lead to any problems with internet connection or anything.. like you said they "Pretend their internet isn't working" yet I haven't seen any proof of this.. And they have proof the company is in huge money trouble.. I want to ask this, why are these backers being such tossers to the rest of us and keeping this information to themselves and not showing anyone this? If they have this proof thy are claiming they have, Show it!

I have known companies to have month or more delays with internet ISPs when they move.. and there seams to be some issues in the US with some companies claiming to be able to install it in your home or workplace and then saying 'Oh no, you need to pay a lot more' or 'sorry, this service isn't available for you'.

and according to ACSI (the American Customer Satifaction Index), people are getting very fed up with how bad ISP are doing now:
"Unfortunately, internet service providers (ISPs), along with subscription TV, have the lowest customer satisfaction of all industries tracked by the ACSI.

ISPs are down 3.1 percent to 62, and while customers clearly aren’t satisfied with their service, more than half of Americans have only one choice for high-speed broadband. Every major ISP deteriorates this year except Xfinity, which remains unchanged."
(https://www.theacsi.org/news-and-resour ... tions-2018)

I know some of my comments can be a bit biting against some people, sorry but I have a habbit of being blunt (you should see me talking with friends who are big time smokers or alcohol drinkers). but I did think:
"yep 6k+ backers and no one in England can find the time to go ask questions? bunch of keyboard warriors on that island I guess" was a bit... nasty.. at least I get moaned at when I make such a comment ^_^

oh, and by the way for my reply to that.. for me, I have nothing really to ask him which I think he can answer. I see no point in wasting a lot of money to travel some distance for bugger all.

Oh and there is no question that can't be ignored.. maybe you are misunderstanding the word "can't" or something.. In this world, there is almost nothing that can't be done. I could transform into a penguin right this moment.. the chances of it happening are SOO amazingly low that calculating it is like calculating Pi (you can work it out to as many numbers as you have the time for) but it can be done. It took over 4.5 billion years to make the earth what it is today.. that's a long time, but it could be done.. it has been.

People do have the right to be upset. fine. People have the right to ask questions. and if people want to make a total arse of themselves, they have the right to do that.. but then they have the right for others to tell them they are making a total arse of themselves. It doesn't work one way.

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June 4th, 2018, 1:34 pm
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ManicMan wrote:
People do have the right to be upset. fine. People have the right to ask questions. and if people want to make a total arse of themselves, they have the right to do that.. but then they have the right for others to tell them they are making a total arse of themselves. It doesn't work one way.


Word.


June 4th, 2018, 2:25 pm
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I don't know who that Robert Kelly dude is, but he makes me want to circumvent the SPM profanity filters. What a lunatic psycho. 'We should go get our money back however we want, because I don't have my big box of toys when I thought I was going to.' Entitled little twit.

Look, if you're reading this, YOU WILL GET YOUR TOYS. Breath through your nose for a minute. And then ask yourself if a big box of toys is worth looking like a potato-headed goat-lover in public.


June 4th, 2018, 3:37 pm
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I can’t quite work out of that “total arse” comment was made in my direction, but if so I would like to say “steady on..”

I was mearly stating your retoric was a little disingenuous as, even if one or two people are being weird/edgy/psychotic, the general response has to them has been negative. Calling the KS backers toxic unanimously is hyperbolic and just as damaging to the community.

No, people don’t have some mythical proof they are hoarding for themselves, but it is human nature to draw the most reasonable conclusion from the evidence available. They claim that they have no internet? Yet post on social media? Are they planning on doing NO work for a month? In which case are they sending the customer support guys home? Most small companies in this situation would rally around and use their home internet or something.

The “idea” that they have internet, but are pretending not to, is the most plausible case. People have made similar conclusions re: their financial situation.

And yes... I do know what can’t means, however many people do not feel the need to talk in an explicit, literal way. I clearly meant the for him to not answer those questions, in public, would be damning.

Do not malign my intelligence over semantics. That is the very definition of strawmanning...


June 4th, 2018, 3:54 pm
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@Goli - I thought ManicMan was referring to some of the more extreme KS backers. I at least wasn't considering you being a punk :).


June 4th, 2018, 4:52 pm
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Mini-Boss
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It wasn't aimed at Golly.. I don't remember have much contact with you on this board or anything so nothing really I can say too much against you ^_^ sorry if you felt it was directly at you. It wasn't. there are WAY worse people.. I think you are more still neutral.

There are some on the KS who are calling others liars for not coming to the same conclusions while also moaning that SDM/ND isn't giving much information.. can't draw meaningful conclusions on limited information and since half of the moan is on the limited information, it's hard to make a conclusion. okay, human nature is to come up with ideas.. fine. they are possible ideas. but there are the gits who come up with an idea and will not listen to any other ideas as being possible.

I'm not sure if saying that they DO have internet but are claiming they aren't is the most plausible thing for this.. I can think of a few times (though this is mostly in the UK) where this situation isn't hugely out of the norm. One place I work has had a major power problem this is now in it's 3rd week. It was believed fixed last week but has gone off again and right now, no clue what is going on.. It's not purely a money issue or anything. It's partly an issue with an old building but also we aren't sure what is blowing it.. electrics have been checked and tested up to date.. a Friend of mine had a couple of months without decent internet while the phone company was checking it out and trying to find out where the fault was.. even had all the phone wiring in the building replaced and still had problems. It happens.

As for 'most small companies would rally around'... possible.. I wouldn't say most. A lot, yes, but not all.. I do above and beyond what's required but doesn't mean I don't want to be able to go home and clock off for my own life.

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June 4th, 2018, 5:23 pm
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InfinityMax wrote:
I don't know who that Robert Kelly dude is, but he makes me want to circumvent the SPM profanity filters. What a lunatic psycho. 'We should go get our money back however we want, because I don't have my big box of toys when I thought I was going to.' Entitled little twit.

Look, if you're reading this, YOU WILL GET YOUR TOYS. Breath through your nose for a minute. And then ask yourself if a big box of toys is worth looking like a potato-headed goat-lover in public.

Please don't. It will only effect me and I don't work for them ;)


June 4th, 2018, 5:48 pm
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Minion
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ManicMan wrote:
Update #129:
"We should all track them down at the next convention they are at and take our money back from them. In whatever form of payback we want"


Oh and it seams everyone has proof that the office move hasn't lead to any problems with internet connection or anything.. like you said they "Pretend their internet isn't working" yet I haven't seen any proof of this.. And they have proof the company is in huge money trouble.. I want to ask this, why are these backers being such tossers to the rest of us and keeping this information to themselves and not showing anyone this? If they have this proof thy are claiming they have, Show it!

I have known companies to have month or more delays with internet ISPs when they move.. and there seams to be some issues in the US with some companies claiming to be able to install it in your home or workplace and then saying 'Oh no, you need to pay a lot more' or 'sorry, this service isn't available for you'.

and according to ACSI (the American Customer Satifaction Index), people are getting very fed up with how bad ISP are doing now:
"Unfortunately, internet service providers (ISPs), along with subscription TV, have the lowest customer satisfaction of all industries tracked by the ACSI.

ISPs are down 3.1 percent to 62, and while customers clearly aren’t satisfied with their service, more than half of Americans have only one choice for high-speed broadband. Every major ISP deteriorates this year except Xfinity, which remains unchanged."
(https://www.theacsi.org/news-and-resour ... tions-2018)

I know some of my comments can be a bit biting against some people, sorry but I have a habbit of being blunt (you should see me talking with friends who are big time smokers or alcohol drinkers). but I did think:
"yep 6k+ backers and no one in England can find the time to go ask questions? bunch of keyboard warriors on that island I guess" was a bit... nasty.. at least I get moaned at when I make such a comment ^_^

oh, and by the way for my reply to that.. for me, I have nothing really to ask him which I think he can answer. I see no point in wasting a lot of money to travel some distance for bugger all.

Oh and there is no question that can't be ignored.. maybe you are misunderstanding the word "can't" or something.. In this world, there is almost nothing that can't be done. I could transform into a penguin right this moment.. the chances of it happening are SOO amazingly low that calculating it is like calculating Pi (you can work it out to as many numbers as you have the time for) but it can be done. It took over 4.5 billion years to make the earth what it is today.. that's a long time, but it could be done.. it has been.

People do have the right to be upset. fine. People have the right to ask questions. and if people want to make a total arse of themselves, they have the right to do that.. but then they have the right for others to tell them they are making a total arse of themselves. It doesn't work one way.



I agree with some of this, some of it not so much.
Who knows, maybe you can talk me down, I'm pretty upset with SPM in light of what I've learned since Friday.

They've been posting news/updates/comments in a variety of places JUST FINE without any "internet issues". They did it Friday, they did it over the weekend, and they did it today. But they can't reply to emails? I'd love to know how that works. And it doesn't change the fact that the statement started getting emailed out to people well after the move occured -more in time with when the first publicly shared BBB inquiries(in the KS comments section) would have come in to them. So yes, I'm going with logical conclusion that they are "pretending" they can't reply to emails. I'd love to know what better word you have for it in such a situation?

People have been fed up WITH ISPs for years, they've always been one of the biggest customer dissatisfiers across the United States, it's hardly a shift, nothing new.

I agree with you on the "keyboard warrior" statement -it seemed harsh and hypocritical. I haven't seen that user do anything aside from sit back and complain from behind the keyboard, so I don't have any reason to believe he's in a place to talk. I've at least reached out on three occasions to do something constructive, rather than solely complaining -I have made a point to reach out to them in a courteous and professional manner, not badgering them about anything or giving them a hard time... The third time actually seemed to be going somewhere initially, but it's been dead in the water for two months now so I'm not holding my breath. I think that in light of there being no production news, they didn't want to risk an adverse response that it could have created. Perhaps I'll try again if and when we have actual production timelines publicized. Something tells me they'll be much more interested then.

I've heard both sides of the "they're broke" argument, and both have merit. When it comes down to it, no, we don't have proof that they're broke. What we do have is an industry that frankly ISN'T all that mystical, a list of known logical reasons production could be delayed, and a list of things that negate all but one of those logical reasons for the delay. We are creatures of deduction, it is one of our greatest intellectual skills, aiding us in our journey as far back as the stone age. And so long as it's applied well, it's just as (if not more) relevant to success today.

That said, it is technically possible that there's something else we don't know about, it's also technically possible that one in ten of us are secretly lizard people who have infiltrated the highest echelons of society and secretly pull the strings of the Illuminati. Seeing as we aren't talking about building rockets that will take us to Mars and back, I'm going to suggest that there are no lizard people, and the single solution most people are coming to is the single most sensible one. But hey, everyone is entitled to believe in lizard people if they so choose.

I don't support the idea of being outright nasty with each other or with volunteer staff. I don't support people assaulting employees, but at this point I do think it would be pretty fair if someone had some stern or even rather angry questions for a certain "business guy" who's been making a lot of the decisions for them over the last few years. Personally I wouldn't mind seeing someone do a video 'interview' with him that seems like it's going well until the very end when they serve him papers on camera. With the number of products they've BEGUN and manufactured since we gave them our money for this one, I'm having a tough time even finding a cynical sense of humor in this anymore, they've got, what THREE new product lines coming to market in the next month or so that weren't even announced 30 days ago? We've passed ridiculous.


June 4th, 2018, 8:42 pm
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Minion
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Jestor wrote:
InfinityMax wrote:
I don't know who that Robert Kelly dude is, but he makes me want to circumvent the SPM profanity filters. What a lunatic psycho. 'We should go get our money back however we want, because I don't have my big box of toys when I thought I was going to.' Entitled little twit.

Look, if you're reading this, YOU WILL GET YOUR TOYS. Breath through your nose for a minute. And then ask yourself if a big box of toys is worth looking like a potato-headed goat-lover in public.

Please don't. It will only effect me and I don't work for them ;)



You know, I do genuinely feel pity for those who volunteer their time for a company like this, and get flak from fans over something they have no control over. If I was at a booth, etc, I can't imagine lashing out at someone like that. If someone were to spot one of the big "decision maker" types... I could see MAYBE wanting some words with them, but even then, what's it really going to do? There's no benefit there. At most it's another quote or sound bite for us to mull over or be upset about later. I assume that the volunteers are here because they love the actual games, which is why I'm here as a backer. The games are great, I just hope to get more of them soon. I'm still upset about a number of things relating to how the company has handled things and how they've communicated along the way, but... At least there's something to hope for?


June 4th, 2018, 10:17 pm
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Mini-Boss
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What did you learn Friday?

yeah, varies people have moaned at them for years, and i'll happily debate on how good any polling system is, there are others and varies issues which I accept as the norm but I don't see the point looking for them again ^_^


I don't know for sure but depending on things, it's possible that updates can be done just about (on things like KS you can schedule them if I remember right) and it does sound iffy if they seam to be up again with internet and are STILL saying problems without a bit of reason but hard to say.

As for lizard people.. god, I wish I could list reasons I have a dislike of David Icke but... it'll take way too long.. i'll defend him on some points but.. oh well.


What three products? I know some which were commented loosely on before, most of them being card based which requires little dealing with plastic issues but.. I'll be interested to know.

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June 4th, 2018, 11:01 pm
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In the last two months, I've watched SPM/ND announce a heist/robbery board game -it used only a few plastic minis, so I didn't think much of it. They've also announced that "Rainbow Knights" card game -no plastic insofar as I can tell, but if they've admitted to halting development on Legends at this time (which they have admitted to), it seems like they've effectively "moved on". I mean, they could be completing Legends so that they might not even NEED to split up production... Unless, say, money was a bit too tight of course.

Over the weekend I learned of "DoomSeeker", a Warhammer themed card game line in cooperation with Games Workshop. Again, cards, but still just another product that is getting development time and attention while we wait. With Legends being admittedly unfinished, that's development that could be going to a product that people paid for a long time ago.

Then today, I learned of the new NAS crossover packs -which I initially assumed we're old plastic minis being repurposed. If that were the case, I'd have been rather happy about it; but looking at those images, they use brand new bases that weren't from SDE or NAS, and they don't appear to have ye olde base-width (roughly) strip of plastic for support at all... Which would mean brand new plastic, fresh off an assembly line. The idea of brand new plastic coming off the line while we wait on Legends is... A bit much at this point. I understand that they'll be supplying retailers with the upgrade packs to be able to use their existing stock, but it seems likely that we're also going to be seeing newly made model packs shipped out for this in the coming weeks. I'll wait to see if that truly does end up being the case before I declare that level of shenanigans, but I think that leaves more than adequate reason to be skeptical.


June 4th, 2018, 11:29 pm
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TheHandsomeDan wrote:
Then today, I learned of the new NAS crossover packs -which I initially assumed we're old plastic minis being repurposed. If that were the case, I'd have been rather happy about it; but looking at those images, they use brand new bases that weren't from SDE or NAS, and they don't appear to have ye olde base-width (roughly) strip of plastic for support at all... Which would mean brand new plastic, fresh off an assembly line. The idea of brand new plastic coming off the line while we wait on Legends is... A bit much at this point.


I looked at the ad pictures for both the old NAS and new SDE box set of the Clan Kitsune and they are exactly the same. I guessing the pictures are digital renderings the same way it fooled us with the Masterclass models. So looking at those images is worthless. I broke open a clan box and it had the slot but the picture on the back didn't show it.

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June 5th, 2018, 1:27 am
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That's genuinely encouraging to hear. I guess we'll just have to wait and see what actually arrives when someone orders the product straight from SPM/ND (some a lot of retailers will have old stock on hand).


June 5th, 2018, 1:42 am
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@thehandsomedan - i agree /w @ape2020. If I've learned anything, ND/SPM product page images are not to be trusted!

I also agree that if these can be proven to be new production, that should either mean SDE:L production is much further along/wrapping up than we think (suuuuppper optimistic) or they will have an impending fecal storm (is that ok to say?) since I don't know how they could spin producing plastic NAS while SDE:L is not fulfilled unless there 'happens' to be a factory where they can only use old molds and cannot make/use new ones (which I'm not sure how much sense that'd make).

My personal assumption is that these are repackaged given the glut of discounted NAS seems to still be out on at least the US market, and they're basically eating the cost of repackaging and adding the new cards to move the inventory. At the same time, they are also providing free PDFs for print and play so...technically it's a lot of development for no guarantee that it'll move any new inventory vs. just further deplete the NAS that's already out in retail land.

As for museum robbery and rainbow knights, I think those were previewed awhile back and are just now making it to production and those are from different studios. Even if they have plastic components, they are very unlikely to use the same plastic resources as SDE.

As for doomseeker, this was one of their game reveals from GAMA and (iirc) it's card based (no minis). It's a GW licensed product so again, different studio, and thus likely different team from ND working on those.


June 5th, 2018, 1:46 am
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Mini-Boss
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i knew about doomseeker months ago too

also, I think it's kinda good with these products cause it shows the company is healthy, compared to peoples 'there is no money' view. okay, people could say they are 'trying' to get as much money as possible with new stuff, but if you look at license fees and development costs, they must have a fair bit.. so.. yeah, I can see your view but I think it's nothing to worry about.. like Sleepy said, they were previewed some time back and are not SPM but just ND publishing.

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June 5th, 2018, 7:50 am
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On the one hand I get it, they need to be putting out new products. On the other hand it's hard not to look at the number of new products they either are about to or have put out in the last couple years, and think to oneself "Seriously? And you couldn't get this one out? It should have been first..." These are products that I've only become aware of in the last week/months, so they're just 'landing' on my periphary now.

And sleepy_laughter, I think you put it perfectly there -if it's re-send of old plastic, that's going to be one thing, potentially even a commendable thing, as it would indicate a wise thought process to get rid of the old back stock. But if it turns out to actually be new plastic, I can't see a way that things wouldn't get a lot more toxic with the general community of fans pretty fast. With any other company, I wouldn't even suspect it, but we've all seen some of the product decisions they've made in the last two years. They haven't built themselves a fantastic track record as of late. I think it's reasonable to have some amount of curiosity or even concern in this regard. I'm not saying we should immediately light the pitchforks here -far from it, but I see something that merits a closer look.

I'm a little tempted to order one of the packs from them directly when they launch later this month. But seeing as my last ND/SPM mini related pre-order with them is not yet fulfilled (with literally no communication about the seemingly stacked delays on it), I'm not sure I could personally drop another penny in their webstore right now without succumbing to some kind of lovecraftian elder madness. Perhaps if they get things straightened out and at least ship my resins to me, I'll give it more thought.


June 5th, 2018, 10:33 am
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TheHandsomeDan wrote:


I agree with some of this, some of it not so much.
Who knows, maybe you can talk me down, I'm pretty upset with SPM in light of what I've learned since Friday.

They've been posting news/updates/comments in a variety of places JUST FINE without any "internet issues". They did it Friday, they did it over the weekend, and they did it today. But they can't reply to emails?


I don't think the Social Media guy works in the office :)

As to one of your other posts, different developers work on different projects. For instance, Dave's name is on the box for Doomseeker but he hasn't really put in much time on SDE. Just because other projects are being worked on doesn't mean that they take away from this project.


June 5th, 2018, 11:41 am
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I know at least one of the 3d Sculptors isn't in office.. he's a british guy ^_^ and anyway, his job on SDL is done

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June 5th, 2018, 11:46 am
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Those are some fair points.

I would still really like to know though, why isn't Legends being worked on if it's admittedly incomplete? If you're waiting for 2.0 to be shipped first, then you're creating your own hurdle to the product.

I hope this isn't with the flawed intention of trying to max out participation numbers with new players from the 2.0, because that logic fails beta testing protocols in a VERY big way. When testing an expansion or an add-on product, you want to focus on feedback from people who are already intimately familiar with the base product -otherwise it's nigh impossible for them to differentiate what may be a big expansion-related problem from something they either just don't like about the basic rules or haven't had enough time to get used to. It dillutes your feedback with suggestions that neither the user nor the recipient can really account for. There's a reason you need a "control" element when testing potentially complicated processes.

I get wanting to include everyone, I do. It sounds nice and friendly and fluffy and inclusive. But in this particular case, the games industry at large is already well aware that it actually creates new problems with inconsistent or "bad" input. Blizzard doesn't seek out people who haven't played WoW when they beta test new patches or expansions, because there's no point of context for people who don't already know the product, and neither do their competitors.

So is this the reason Legends isnt moving forward, or is it something else?


June 5th, 2018, 6:42 pm
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they aren't working on legends? last I heard, 23 march 2018 (update #124) there were still working on bits.

when did they say they are stopping work on Legends?

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June 5th, 2018, 7:13 pm
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