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 Legends Update Thread 
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Goblin-King wrote:
sleepy_laughter wrote:
KS update #127 The Citizenry

Um... is it me or is the new art a step down from the recycled art in this update (b/c some of this is from a previous update)? Or maybe it's a different style i'm not used to. It's definitely lower than the other art previously shared/used with this project and I kind of hope that's not the quality of art we should expect in the explorer handbook...

I know the Arena rulebook included some art that felt really out of style/lower quality than the art I'm used to seeing in the rulebook but, I feel like this update was somewhat less than the other fluff updates.

Can't say I'm a fan...

I wonder if these images are even gonna be used in any final product? They remind me of those color-test drawings from the original game.

Image

Image

Come on... This is Deviant Art fan-art quality :-/


To be fair, the demons + non-traditional elves I found to be pretty solid. Though that being said, it's interesting that those ones didn't have grey backgrounds, while the other ones did... Maybe these are from two or more different artists? Who knows.

But yes I have to agree, the human art was quite a downgrade, particularly with the faces // heads. The clothing and overall outfits at least are nice.


May 3rd, 2018, 6:27 pm
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Denizen
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the 'nicer' pics were released earlier in the campaign and are recycled in this update.


May 3rd, 2018, 6:54 pm
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Denizen
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I’ll just say it. I’m a fan. I don’t mind the simpler art for the NPCs. It reminds me of the 16/32-bit era JRPGs.


May 3rd, 2018, 7:11 pm
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Minion
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Just had a convo with a friend and an interesting speculation was brought up: What if the reason refunds were being delayed, is because the funds were being held due to litigation...?


May 3rd, 2018, 8:20 pm
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Denizen
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that is possible. legal would slow it down like that. if litigation was going on.

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May 3rd, 2018, 8:22 pm
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Minion
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He thinks that what might be going on is that something went down witht he factory and the funds are being held due to that, either the factory screwed them or they screwed the factory or some such thing. It would explain why the funds for the KS are held, but why they still manage to create their masterclass minis and why Legends is the only one affected. Would also explain why Rail Raiders production slowed to a halt.


May 3rd, 2018, 8:35 pm
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Denizen
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possible.. we don't know what factory they use (though they have moved partly to another).. if the factory screwed up something, which is MORE then possible, that would slow things down a lot and screw up a lot.. but people don't want to blame them.. they want to blame the people they are closer to ^_^ but again, this is all unknown. but it would also explain why they can't talk about stuff.. standard NDA which (sorry to all you yankies) americans don't seam to like..

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May 3rd, 2018, 8:40 pm
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ManicMan wrote:
there have had a bunch of artists since the start.. no one original artist really.. the early/first SDE release ones were:
Elmer Damaso, Micheelle Hoefener, Ein Lee, Andrea Cofrancesco, Robert Porter (Robaato), Rose Besch (Bara-Chan) Brett Stebbins and Brian Snoddy.

out of those.. I know Rose Besch isn't working with them any more.. atleast, I'm PRETTY sure she isn't. By the way, she did the Candy art used in the Manuals, as well as the original (and I can't get but looks to me to be the only really great) SDE t-shirt.
as for others? I believe Elmer Damaso, Dan Dussault, Heath Foley and Ein Lee are currently atleast freelancing with them. So that's 2 of the original group, and 2 newer ones ^_^


To be fair, some of the new art is great. Any idea who did these?

Image

Compared to the original cards, the coloring is a bit more sloppy, but no big deal at all.
It just amazes me how these are from the same game as those in the update.
Like them or not... based purely on the craftsmanship, the ones from the update are just objectively (yes, objectively!) worse quality.
And that's a !SODA! shame, because it really makes it hard for SDE to maintain "that" SDE-look. Chibi isn't just chibi. There ere lots and lots of different styles, and they can't seem to lock in on one style.

Hiring sub-par artists seems like a dangerous gamble for a franchise that lives almost entirely on it's art-style, s'all I'm saying... :-/

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May 3rd, 2018, 9:17 pm
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on its own, i don't think the citizen art is 'bad', but it's too different and doesn't align with existing aesthetic. Unless the plan is to include several different art styles in the explorer handbook (which wasn't done with the FK explorer handbook), these just feel weird.

I'm ok with simpler art for citizens, but not severe style change (like some of the Arena rule art I just don't enjoy at all). I mean, the art doesn't impact the minis or mechanics of the game, but I guess it does impact my enjoyment and ability to entice others to play.


May 3rd, 2018, 9:36 pm
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NPC art shouldn't be as detailed as player art ^_^ and ontop of art, there is colouring and shading.. SDE isn't Chibi, never has been. Though there are some 'debates' cause it's not really one style, the small hands and feet show it's just an SD form and not Chibi.. and I wouldn't say the franchise lives almost entirely on it's art-style... there are tons out there with the same, or even real chibi art style.. and I agree with sleepy.. art doesn't impact the minis or mechanics of the game.

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May 3rd, 2018, 9:40 pm
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I agree npc art shouldn't be as detailed (although npc hero art is awesome so i'm happy with that :)).

It'll be interesting to see if/when they'll make minis for the citizens. by being simpler maybe they can make them cheaper?


May 3rd, 2018, 10:03 pm
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ManicMan wrote:
NPC art shouldn't be as detailed as player art ^_^ and ontop of art, there is colouring and shading.. SDE isn't Chibi, never has been. Though there are some 'debates' cause it's not really one style, the small hands and feet show it's just an SD form and not Chibi.. and I wouldn't say the franchise lives almost entirely on it's art-style... there are tons out there with the same, or even real chibi art style.. and I agree with sleepy.. art doesn't impact the minis or mechanics of the game.


Being that art is subjective, and I tend to go with whatever the artist(s) intended it to be. I'd have to be pretty high up on my soapbox to tell someone they were wrong about their own creation, unless they were miles off -someone passing off postmodern impressionism for chibi for example would be a good ways from any kind of accurate. I think we can agree on that much.

So with that said, I'll quote the front page of the Kickstarter:
Quote:
Super Dungeon Explore, the chibi board game, returns with LEGENDS

If the designers intended it as chibi, and the majority of art is either there or relatively close, I'm going to say it's fair to call this a chibi game as the designers intended. ^_^ anything else is just getting into debates of semantics and personal egos.

Regarding the update... I'm going to echo a few others here, in saying that I'm not OVERJOYED with it, but actually, it was nice to see some content that felt relevant. It gave background on a variety of races that ARE in the game, which was a welcome change. And since (I gather) any playable character that isn't currently being played can realistically be used as an NPC, it opens up some solid basic lore for storytelling experiences within the Legends system.

Was it a perfect update? No, but it was a welcome change.

Also -Im quite happy to see the return of a staff member interacting with the community. Not just a single comment, but even a little back and forth. That was quite nice to see, I almost didn't believe it at first.

Regarding someone's speculation about refunds being tied up in litigation... I won't dive too deep into the kind of speculation that tends to make a certain moderator a bit uncomfortable, and I certainly won't name names (for the same reason), but I will say that I can only think of one case that could hypothetically be happening unbeknownst to us which would cause that level of financial lockdown. It wouldn't be a customer-action, because in order to hit that scale, it would have been something the rest of us would have heard about... And the one company that I can THINK of who might have reason to try that, well... I can't totally rule it out, but I think that company knows they'd be damaging what little good name they have in the industry if they tried something that prevented SPM/ND from fulfilling this project. And that sort of thing would be hard to keep out of public record once it did go down. So it's POSSIBLE, but I just can't imagine that it's the case. I wouldn't worry too much about this either way, because it's unlikely, it would be hard to win/prove even if it did go before a judge, and we as customers really couldn't do much to change the outcome of such a thing anyway.

Yeah, I've got concerns, and I won't pretend otherwise, but really, current/pending large scale action against the publisher isn't one of them. For now I'm just TRYING to be objective at the least, and positive when possible.


May 3rd, 2018, 10:06 pm
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fair enough ^_^

on the art side, I do find things at a bit.. confusing to say the least.. it seams these days, I can do fumetti without 1) being Italian, and 2) using any photographs at all.. weird.. and I know a lot of people aren't into constructive criticism as some are. but that's all fine too. I just tend to get a bit annoyed when language goes from 'words used to make a idea understood' to "buzz words to sound hip and cool and to give the impression of something, regardless" ^_^ a friend of mine claims she draws Manga.. I point out that she is not Japanese and that fact that Japanese comics have a range of styles.. she says fair enough but she is still gonna call it that. case is closed.. but I guess you need to get on with people well to be able to trade jabs like that ^_^

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May 3rd, 2018, 10:15 pm
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Consul
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sleepy_laughter wrote:
on its own, i don't think the citizen art is 'bad',

I do - but good or bad is subjective. All I'm saying is that it's of lower quality than some of the other artwork.

ManicMan wrote:
NPC art shouldn't be as detailed as player art ^_^ and ontop of art, there is colouring and shading..

sleepy_laughter wrote:
but it's too different and doesn't align with existing aesthetic. Unless the plan is to include several different art styles in the explorer handbook (which wasn't done with the FK explorer handbook), these just feel weird.

I'm ok with simpler art for citizens, but not severe style change (like some of the Arena rule art I just don't enjoy at all).

Exactly. NPCs/citizens should be drawn and colored in the same style as heroes, but wear simple clothes, simple tools and less details like jewelry and stuff like that.
They should however maintain the same amount of details in stuff like hair, folds in clothes and facial expression.
Basically make them look like they belong in the same game, but make it clear that one is an awesome hero and the other is a mundane villager.

sleepy_laughter wrote:
...but I guess it does impact my enjoyment and ability to entice others to play.

As it should. This is a premium quality product. Inconsistent art-style should not be a thing.


ManicMan wrote:
SDE isn't Chibi, never has been. Though there are some 'debates' cause it's not really one style, the small hands and feet show it's just an SD form and not Chibi..

That's a new one!? How is super deformed characters with anime/manga faces not chibi? They need Powerpuff Girls hands?
Anyways... Chibi or super deformed... We are splitting hairs here. The point was that SDE has a lot to gain by maintaining ONE instantly recognizable style.

ManicMan wrote:
and I wouldn't say the franchise lives almost entirely on it's art-style... there are tons out there with the same, or even real chibi art style.. and I agree with sleepy.. art doesn't impact the minis or mechanics of the game.

I would say SDE pioneered chibi miniature board games. It's a huge part of what sets SDE apart from any old dungeon crawler (especially at the time of it's initial release). Even Arcadia Quest is walking in SDE's footprints.
And while art doesn't impact mechanics, it's still an important part of the appeal. I dare you to say SDE would be just as popular with wooden blocks instead of miniatures ;)

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May 3rd, 2018, 10:30 pm
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[off-topic]

This forum and SPM webstore are under control of russian hackers. Basically it have some background scripts to control your browser to access ukranian banks... explaining shortly what the network administrator from my job told me today. based on the past spam attacks on this forum, this is my last visit here and the old SPM webstore. A reason why they made a new webstore on their another site.

For who still want stay, be carefull with your computers.

Farewell.

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May 3rd, 2018, 10:57 pm
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it's not a "new one".. but I already agreed to disagreed with the old (mostly I'm thinking back to the 80s/90s) classications of styles vs modern and fine..

SDE has never had one set style really.. no house style, all tweaks on the theme.. lets see.. take the following cards: Hearthsworn Fighter (Original), Spirit Walker, Goro, Mr. Bitey.. I think that set will do. see the differences? same general theme, but artistic difference in style tweaks in art, inking and colouring.. but again, this is beside the point as things have been discussed.

as for 'pioneering' chibi miniature board games.... erm.. I can't quite see this.. for one thing, you need to DEFINE it a lot.. Gundam G-generation was a Chibi (SD) board game released in 2000. base set came with about 8 characters and you could buy booster packs for more. it's a COMPLETELY different type and style of game but it fits 'Chibi miniature board game' by your definition. I'm not saying it'll be just as popular with wooden blocks. But try saying Cluedo would be just as popular without gameplay...

anyway.. this is being far too against the point on stuff which has been stated and over with..

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May 3rd, 2018, 10:59 pm
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@Manicman, sure you can argue that because SDE wasn’t ‘First’ it didn’t “pioneer” the genre. I believe it blazed the trail though.

In a similar way, Resident Evil was not the first survival horror game, (Alone in the Dark came before RE) but Resident Evil put the survival horror genre out there.


May 3rd, 2018, 11:37 pm
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@HolyCross
I think his point was directed largely because I've seen several claims that SDE was the "original" or first chibi miniatures game. I've seen that point pushed in marketing, and I BELIEVE even the Kickstarter(s), though it's a bit hard to go back and check in great detail while on a mobile device. I agree with your point though -they don't actually appear to have been the first, but at least as far as Western audiences are concerned, they definitely blazed a path that hadn't been attempted on such a scale here ever before. I respect that, it was a risk, and it's one I'm glad they took.


ManicMan wrote:
fair enough ^_^

on the art side, I do find things at a bit.. confusing to say the least.. it seams these days, I can do fumetti without 1) being Italian, and 2) using any photographs at all.. weird.. and I know a lot of people aren't into constructive criticism as some are. but that's all fine too. I just tend to get a bit annoyed when language goes from 'words used to make a idea understood' to "buzz words to sound hip and cool and to give the impression of something, regardless" ^_^ a friend of mine claims she draws Manga.. I point out that she is not Japanese and that fact that Japanese comics have a range of styles.. she says fair enough but she is still gonna call it that. case is closed.. but I guess you need to get on with people well to be able to trade jabs like that ^_^


The manga debate is an interesting one. I hadn't considered the defined meaning of it in quite that way before, though I have seen at least one "manga" published by the larger houses that was very up front about the author/artist being French, and another one that was American... It's been YEARS, so I couldn't recall the titles, but I remember seeing them, reading the back and thinking "Huh. That's interesting..." At the same time, pretty much anywhere I could find a definition just now indicates that it would come from Japan or be drawn by someone Japanese, so that makes it a lot more definitive than one might think. I just found that very interesting. I suppose that if one is trying to appeal to manga/anime fans without upsetting purists, they would be best to refer to it as manga-inspired art, or a manga inspired graphic novel.

And yeah, there are definitely differences between certain models, especially when you look at the different core boxes. I imagine it has to do with there being different artists on each sculpt, or perhaps different people providing different amounts of feedback through the process. Personally, I'm not a fan of most the updated rerelease models for 2.0 that were originally in 1.0... I just think that the sculpts of 1.0 seem so much more appropriate for the style and feel of the game -art that fits within it's world and context if you will. Whereas the revised sculpts feel rather like they were really 'forced' to conform more and more to a cutesy deformed style. I don't dislike SD-style art in most cases, but I just don't feel like the new models convey the feel and style the game has maintained for so long. I worry a bit that there's going to be an uncomfortably clear visual divide between the old content and the new that makes them look jarringly different on the board. I may be overthinking it, but the thought has definitely occurred to me, and I won't really know until I can hold the old and the new side by side for proper real-time comparison. All this is to say that the newer set is probably closer to being "proper" chibi style than the old ones... But I'm not necessarily sure that adhering so strictly to that style was the best direction to take visually. Maybe going with more of a general cartoony 'SD' style of sorts was a better path to begin with?


May 4th, 2018, 12:33 am
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there was a huge debate years ago about what is 'Anime'. techinally it's just any animation. The term is used for Japanese Animation (at one point called Japmation.. god I sound old now) but there was a bit debate about things like a lot of American cartoons which had Japanese design and animation. Thundercats (original 80s) had japenese style designs, a notable Japanese production and animation yet it was a animation written.. or what about stuff in japan which had non-Japanese writers? it was very confusing..

end of the day, the view was mostly "oh hell, lets just forget this".

and yep, I would agree SDE was a major player in the western chibi board game movement.

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May 4th, 2018, 7:08 am
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Labels and definitions can indeed be the center of huge debates :)

A thousand people handed paper and pencils and given infinite time. Eventually two of them both produce the exact same story for a Dragonball spinoff story (or whatever). Picture by picture. Word by word.
One of the people is Japanese, the other American. Even though the final product is 100% indistinguishable, one is a manga and the other is a comic? Is that the general idea behind this school of thoughts?

So if manga just means Japanese Comics, and has nothing to do with the art style (Japanese comic drawn in western style?), what's even the point of the word? Just say Japanese comics.

I think the problem is that (unlike beautiful math) language is constantly evolving. If enough people start using a word wrong, it becomes the right way of using it.
My bet is that most people, if asked what does "manga" mean, would answer "comics drawn in a particular style, usually with big eyes and simple or no noses".


Also Thundercats was awesome!

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May 4th, 2018, 7:41 am
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