View unanswered posts | View active topics It is currently November 20th, 2017, 6:19 pm



Reply to topic  [ 2605 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 112, 113, 114, 115, 116, 117, 118 ... 131  Next
 Legends Update Thread 
Author Message
Bottle Cap

Joined: February 14th, 2017, 11:28 pm
Posts: 38
At first, I was right on board with your statement that there hasn't been anything that in would qualify as "BS" -obviously none of us are HAPPY about the delay... But I wouldn't say the company has done anything to deliberately mislead or deceive anyone. The moment a company starts making decisions to maliciously lash out at it's own consumers, they would have taken a dark turn. I don't think these guys have done that.

Reading your explanation of why you don't believe we've been given "BS", you incidentally brought something up that raises a concern which didn't exist for me before.

Wave I was done, and they were waiting for proofs... In April. So then why we're proofs still the reason for hold up all the way in June, two months later? I know that first round proofs sometimes require feedback or corrections, but unless something pretty severe happened this seems rather long. Come to think of it, I've never seen a Kickstarter board game stuck in limbo at this stage for over a month, even when corrections needed to be made. I'm not suggesting anyone jump to conclusions on this -and I'm not saying this is evidence of any lie or any kind of "BS". But I am saying that a delay half that long typically merits explanation from the creators... With no explanation here, it does leave me wondering just what happened. I think that's a reasonable question and concern. Where did that time go? If there was a major foul up with the proofs, if you needed to make some major change to the product AFTER you thought you were done, whatever the case -transparency into the delays goes a long way. It's not uncommon for a Kickstarter to run behind, but most backers are a lot more satisfied when we have clear communication regarding delays. It's a good way to build rapport with consumers. But again... This gap, while raising some questions, doesn't mean that someone has done anything "wrong", it just makes you go "hmm..."

I'm also reminded of one pretty clear, pretty bold promise that was made not that long ago. And it's not one that we ever seem to have gotten any follow up on. In one major update, after a rather long period without new information, we were told to submit our questions in the kickstarter comments, that they understood our concerns, and would reply to those concerns directly in an update the following week.

It was a pretty specific promise. A company that comes through on that sort of promise really makes a good impression with it's current and prospective fans. Thing is, the next week rolled around, and they didn't appear to have done anything toward that. To be honest, I still can't see evidence that they ever attempted to follow through on that one.

What DID happen roughly around that timeline, was an escalation back and forth between a particular customer and a company rep -ultimately the customer said something he shouldn't have, and rather than a warning he was subsequently banned, removed from the project and refunded without further consideration. Should he have said the thing that he said? No, he shouldn't have, and I'm not going to defend that. But to the best of my knowledge, it wasn't like he'd been warned or contacted about this by the company before the incident or at any point leading up to the ban. What's more the customer said the questionable thing one time, and had seemed to move past it some time before the ban went into effect. What the customer said was effectively a rash judgement call about the company without any kind of actual evidence -its not pretty, and it wasn't called for, but it's not like he was flooding the comments with hate speech either. I can see two sides of this thing, but I've seen a little too much of what a competent community management team does... And banning/removing/cancelling someone's purchase without reaching out to correct the problem with them directly... That's not something I've ever seen or even heard of from other skilled and competent community managers or teams. Maybe these guys just prefer to flex the banhammer a little more quickly; but it's concerning when we're waiting for the promised response to dozens of questions on customers' minds, and the only thing we can see is that they took an opportunity to "cull the herd" when someone pressed them with some tough and legitimate questions. We still don't have answers to all of those questions, so far as I know. But I'm not here to carry that debate, there are two sides we can all see and I don't think either part acted 100% as they should have.

Whatever the case, these are things that I hope the company takes to heart and doesn't repeat. I also hope that our side remembers that the people representing this product to us... They're people too. And they do deserve our respect.

There's GOOD news too. They showed something that looks like real progress in the big update two weeks ago. And they set appropriate expectations for the update after that (last week). I appreciate that. I also recognize that there were some health problems affecting a team member, which can add to issues in a lot of ways. The last couple updates have been a lot more "to the point", and I appreciate that. So I think that, in light of more recent information shared with consumers, it's best that we just be positive and wait patiently for our product to be shipped. I don't love the idea of continuing to wait an indeterminate amount of time, but it is what it is, right? The product, and the bonuses should be worth the wait methinks. And I've seen other companies handle themselves far worse than anything these guys have done, if they're on the right track I'm all for cutting them a bit of slack.


August 4th, 2017, 6:12 pm
Profile
Denizen
User avatar

Joined: November 3rd, 2016, 9:02 am
Posts: 256
Location: South East England
TheHandsomeDan wrote:
Wave I was done, and they were waiting for proofs... In April. So then why we're proofs still the reason for hold up all the way in June, two months later? I know that first round proofs sometimes require feedback or corrections, but unless something pretty severe happened this seems rather long. Come to think of it, I've never seen a Kickstarter board game stuck in limbo at this stage for over a month, even when corrections needed to be made. I'm not suggesting anyone jump to conclusions on this -and I'm not saying this is evidence of any lie or any kind of "BS". But I am saying that a delay half that long typically merits explanation from the creators... With no explanation here, it does leave me wondering just what happened. I think that's a reasonable question and concern. Where did that time go? If there was a major foul up with the proofs, if you needed to make some major change to the product AFTER you thought you were done, whatever the case -transparency into the delays goes a long way. It's not uncommon for a Kickstarter to run behind, but most backers are a lot more satisfied when we have clear communication regarding delays. It's a good way to build rapport with consumers. But again... This gap, while raising some questions, doesn't mean that someone has done anything "wrong", it just makes you go "hmm..."


I do wonder but as I was typing my first bit, I was thinking about all the TYPES of Proof.. for the game, there are the Proofs for the Models, the Proofs for the Cards, the Proofs for the Rules/manuals, the Proofs for the boxes.. We have seen the Proofs for the Rules, we have seen the Proofs for SOME boxes (frost bite and Royal Guard), we have seen proof for the Monster tracker. WE haven't seen (nor do I really think we should) see proofs for the Cards, Box or models.. I think sometimes we kinda forget that the models themselves are quite a small part.. people love models, but models without rules are useless.. where as you can use rules without models.. of course, the models can be seen as taking longer to make/design but there you go.. I do kinda wonder what tonight/Saturday (for me) weekly update will be like.. it would be nice for a more full status report but people moan at them without showing models and the like.. So would people just want to see model proofs? people will moan that there isn't any status report.. showing both? like said, tailend of a project can be tricky.. they do want to pace stuff out and giving people quality art of tiles, picture of models, rules, rules etc.. why would they buy the game? print and play. of course, negative people seam to have louded voices then positive but yeah, some information in the way of a status report would be nice.. so far we know 3 MAJOR things that lead to delays:
1) supporter feedback on rules lead to a complete rewrite and new staff member (For Classic, Arcade and Legends rules)
2) internal testing lead to another complete rewrite (just for Legends rules this time)
3) Major staff member with major illness

anyway.. you worded it quite well Danny

TheHandsomeDan wrote:
I'm also reminded of one pretty clear, pretty bold promise that was made not that long ago. And it's not one that we ever seem to have gotten any follow up on. In one major update, after a rather long period without new information, we were told to submit our questions in the kickstarter comments, that they understood our concerns, and would reply to those concerns directly in an update the following week.


yeah.. though i'm confused as hell why people seam to think that ungodly 'comments page' more then comments on the timeline is a good thing to post in.. on the timeline, you can read them, however managing the account can see and address them without problems.. that stupid list page? not really ¬_¬.. posting there is pointless if you want to address something related to an update... but people won't learn..

TheHandsomeDan wrote:
What DID happen roughly around that timeline, was an escalation back and forth between a particular customer and a company rep -ultimately the customer said something he shouldn't have, and rather than a warning he was subsequently banned, removed from the project and refunded without further consideration. Should he have said the thing that he said? No, he shouldn't have, and I'm not going to defend that. But to the best of my knowledge, it wasn't like he'd been warned or contacted about this by the company before the incident or at any point leading up to the ban. What's more the customer said the questionable thing one time, and had seemed to move past it some time before the ban went into effect. What the customer said was effectively a rash judgement call about the company without any kind of actual evidence -its not pretty, and it wasn't called for, but it's not like he was flooding the comments with hate speech either. I can see two sides of this thing, but I've seen a little too much of what a competent community management team does... And banning/removing/cancelling someone's purchase without reaching out to correct the problem with them directly... That's not something I've ever seen or even heard of from other skilled and competent community managers or teams. Maybe these guys just prefer to flex the banhammer a little more quickly; but it's concerning when we're waiting for the promised response to dozens of questions on customers' minds, and the only thing we can see is that they took an opportunity to "cull the herd" when someone pressed them with some tough and legitimate questions. We still don't have answers to all of those questions, so far as I know. But I'm not here to carry that debate, there are two sides we can all see and I don't think either part acted 100% as they should have.


I can't make any real comment on the issue.. there are probably only 2 people that know IF he/she/they got a warning or not.. one claims they didn't and has a bias reason for stating that.. the other? no clue. either way in an issue where it pretty much comes down to one-persons word against another's, then no-one is innocent.


TheHandsomeDan wrote:

There's GOOD news too. They showed something that looks like real progress in the big update two weeks ago. And they set appropriate expectations for the update after that (last week). I appreciate that. I also recognize that there were some health problems affecting a team member, which can add to issues in a lot of ways. The last couple updates have been a lot more "to the point", and I appreciate that. So I think that, in light of more recent information shared with consumers, it's best that we just be positive and wait patiently for our product to be shipped. I don't love the idea of continuing to wait an indeterminate amount of time, but it is what it is, right? The product, and the bonuses should be worth the wait methinks. And I've seen other companies handle themselves far worse than anything these guys have done, if they're on the right track I'm all for cutting them a bit of slack.


Yep.. ^_^ I can name tons of companies that have made bigger delays and often without ANY statement on what is going on.. (See Atari, Games workshop, Heavy Metal, Ocean, BBC...)... some of them are still going... and unlike the BBC, SodaPop only took the money once.. BBC take it every year ¬_¬


Last edited by ManicMan on August 8th, 2017, 8:43 am, edited 1 time in total.



August 4th, 2017, 6:52 pm
Profile WWW
Denizen
User avatar

Joined: July 5th, 2012, 2:03 pm
Posts: 444
TheHandsomeDan wrote:
I'm also reminded of one pretty clear, pretty bold promise that was made not that long ago. And it's not one that we ever seem to have gotten any follow up on. In one major update, after a rather long period without new information, we were told to submit our questions in the kickstarter comments, that they understood our concerns, and would reply to those concerns directly in an update the following week.

It was a pretty specific promise. A company that comes through on that sort of promise really makes a good impression with it's current and prospective fans. Thing is, the next week rolled around, and they didn't appear to have done anything toward that. To be honest, I still can't see evidence that they ever attempted to follow through on that one.

I feel the need to point out that they promised to collect questions for Deke to answer. There are some indications that's when he started having his health issues and that's why they missed the next update.


August 4th, 2017, 8:57 pm
Profile
Bottle Cap

Joined: February 14th, 2017, 11:28 pm
Posts: 38
Imriel wrote:
TheHandsomeDan wrote:
I'm also reminded of one pretty clear, pretty bold promise that was made not that long ago. And it's not one that we ever seem to have gotten any follow up on. In one major update, after a rather long period without new information, we were told to submit our questions in the kickstarter comments, that they understood our concerns, and would reply to those concerns directly in an update the following week.

It was a pretty specific promise. A company that comes through on that sort of promise really makes a good impression with it's current and prospective fans. Thing is, the next week rolled around, and they didn't appear to have done anything toward that. To be honest, I still can't see evidence that they ever attempted to follow through on that one.

I feel the need to point out that they promised to collect questions for Deke to answer. There are some indications that's when he started having his health issues and that's why they missed the next update.


That did occur to me, though I could only speculate, and I was trying to stay as neutral as possible -but yes, you are absolutely spot on with regards to the timing.

What's more, I just checked the project page, and an update has gone live since... I'd swear someone had read my post just before they put it up, because boy howdy does it resonate to some of the points I made earlier. And to be clear, I mean that in a good way. I made specific effort to say that "we couldn't see" efforts to gather or answer the questions they promised to answer... But I made a point NOT to say "they ignored us", "they brushed us off" or "they blatantly liked to us". After reading the latest update, I find myself rather glad about that choice of words, seems they may make good on the promise of theirs just yet. ^_^

Also good to see, was a lot of clarification around progress, proofs, and terminology as they intend it. That's another page taken right out of this discussion, so if they are indeed reading this I hope they know that the information is greatly appreciated.

I'm going to spend some time with my head in the legends update they shared today, and probably a bit more time wrapping up paints on the original 1.0 core mobs this weekend. Positive updates and transparency like this really do help to rekindle some of that excitement about getting the product on hand when it really is good and ready. I hope they keep up the good work.


August 4th, 2017, 11:47 pm
Profile
Denizen
User avatar

Joined: November 3rd, 2016, 9:02 am
Posts: 256
Location: South East England
it's not a bad update but.. yeah.. some terms are being used oddly in a way..

to quote:
Quote:
we have clearly identified content of Wave 1, which has been completed, edited, and has gone through layout, and is in final proofing for print. This process takes a bit of back and forth - but the proofing process is the very last time we can touch the files before we hit the "go" button. This includes the 2.0 core game, and associated heroes and warbands in that wave


Now, Wave 1 is, if I remember (can be checked late if needed but I doubt it), 2.0 Core game, Crown Guard, Frostbite Ravegers.. That's fine.. final proofing for print kinda says 'cards, boxes, rules' and not figures.. First batch from the molds for the figures don't seam to have been seen yet but appear to be being done so.. I take it this is pretty close to the 'awaiting arrival for assembly and shipping' stage.. not quite clar there.. Go button being to start production or not in this case? like they said "we can trip on terms at times"... but not quite the "to be clear" bit ^_^ well.. wait and see.


August 5th, 2017, 8:12 am
Profile WWW
Bottle Cap

Joined: February 14th, 2017, 11:28 pm
Posts: 38
I think you're reading into this with added context that simply doesn't exist. Don't get me wrong, we have reason to hold healthy skepticism -at this point, I'll start to *sort of* believe a timeframe when I see pictures of the games being assembled or loaded into shipping boxes/crates. At the same time though, adding context that isn't justified by anything they've said isn't 'healthy skepticism' imo -its going more into the realms of paranoia. But, you've struck me as an intelligent person, and you haven't come across as one to jump on knee jerk responses for no actual reason... So it's entirely possible that there may be something that I've missed and you did not.

Nothing I read in the update gives any reason to believe that the miniatures would NOT be part of that proofing process. No, they don't list them, but you could say the same for everything else included with the products. It doesn't make any sense to pick one random thing out and say "This wasn't mentioned at the same time nothing else was mentioned, so clearly it being mentioned just as much as everything else means that it's behind." I mean, they didn't list the punchboards, or the any of the cards, or the tiles -WHAT ABOUT THE TILES!?

Lol, sorry, I'm not actually trying to say you're having an epic freakout here, as I've seen so many others do pretty much everywhere on the web. I'm just having a little fun. But seriously, we haven't seen pics of ANY proofs the factory has sent over, so the miniatures aren't unique. In my humble opinion, there isn't much logic in picking out one small , dare I say "miniature" element(I GOTS JOKES!!!) to randomly be concerned about. I agree it's annoying that we haven't seen any of the factory made models, but we haven't seen any of the other content either. I'm not going to look at the statement and assume that they've made the whole thing up, so I'm going to take it at complete face value until something gives me reason to believe otherwise.

The update wasn't as specific as I might have liked in some ways, but it did allude to something I suspected a bit -proofing is a difficult process where everything has to be gotten 100% right, and there have been complexities there from the sound of it. That tells me that they have indeed been going through at least a moderate number of rounds that required feedback and rework for any number of reasons. Granted, it's speculation, but it makes perfect sense in ways nothing else seems to from the update. And that's not something that's the fault of the designers, and to an extent it isn't the manufacturer either, it's where the two of them have to basically compare notes, make sure they're on the same page, and re-align as necessary to get there.

I will say that if they're going through requests and asks from us, it would be pretty hard to miss the desire to see some miniatures. I mean shoot, it sounds like somewhere between 25-50% of backers I've seen discussing it are just in it for the miniatures at this point. So I would be surprised if somewhere in the next few weeks we don't start to see either some proofs, or some approved final production copies of those.

All that said, if there was something in the update that you feel DID specifically cause concern for the miniatures, I must have missed it -but if that's the case, I'd prefer to be aware of it sooner than later (Cause my hopes, my feels, they're starting to get a little excited again, and I don't want to do that again, only for some mean kid to stomp on my fresh grown dreams!) So please, if I did miss the part that you think creates a concern for the minis, bring it to my attention, because if that's the case I should probably stop letting myself get hyped again.


August 6th, 2017, 3:10 am
Profile
Bottle Cap

Joined: February 14th, 2017, 11:28 pm
Posts: 38
Hm... I said it earlier, and I'll say it again -it would be hard to believe after sifting through user feedback and questions, that they could 'miss' the fact that a lot of people want to see early/proof/production miniatures. One would have to be willfully blind to overlook that among the most frequent requests from backers.

But here's the first update with a series of topics covered, one big FAQ of sorts... It's... Very 'interesting' to me. They mention and address so many specific gameplay questions -scenarios that seem unlikely to arise unless playing with specific characters, etc., but they don't seem to acknowledge the desire to see some kind, any kind, of tangible physical product. No hint that we'll see early proofs, or perhaps a finalized component or two, nothing we've seen to date proves that any of this has gone past a digital state -to be clear, I'm not claiming that they haven't actually gone any further, but when your product is so many months behind the initially declared release date, even after splitting shipments to allow earlier shipping of some product... Well, it's reasonable for customers to want some kind of visual evidence that things really are moving along. Other than getting a product in my own hands, I can't think of any better way to rebuild trust with one's customers -the majority of whom frankly appear to be well past salty based on Kickstarter comments. But... That's not what we see in the latest update. Interesting.


August 13th, 2017, 8:43 am
Profile
Denizen
User avatar

Joined: November 3rd, 2016, 9:02 am
Posts: 256
Location: South East England
last word on models was basically (since I can't be bothered to get the quote out) 'we are waiting final proofs of models, I'll share the photos when I get them'.

some of the FAQ questions I find pointless as they seam to be people unsure of what is written pretty clearly to me but oh well, that's kinda the point..

and I think I said before, but the models, despite what some people say, are just a part of the kickstarter content.. looking over what's there... I think just under half.. of the other half, we have evidence of sorts on Tiles, Rules, cards but yes, no sign of the almost the last stage of production, the physical manufacturing. of course, while this is an important stage, it's just a small part, in some cases the easiest part of the process.


August 13th, 2017, 8:57 am
Profile WWW
Bottle Cap

Joined: February 14th, 2017, 11:28 pm
Posts: 38
I think that the physical portion is actually a REALLY big part at this point. If you're on to proofs, and if they've presumably been through at least a couple rounds of them, they've had ample opportunity to take snapshots. I recognize that being proofs, they may have issues -in fact I EXPECT that they probably did, because if I assume the best of SPM (And I want to assume the best of them), the proofing process has taken this long due to quality/accuracy issues in previous rounds, and SPM wanting to adhere to high expectations. That said, uploading pictures of these proofs would actually be about the BEST way to really give backers confidence of what stages they're at. I've seen numerous other Kickstarter projects upload photos of rejected proofs, being very clear "This was REJECTED, here's why it was rejected, and here are some positive things we can point out as well." As long as you don't inundate backers with that stuff two or three times a week, customers eat that stuff up. It makes the process more tangible, the progress more real.

I never said they didn't show us digital stuff -and I made that distinction on purpose. To be blunt, you can show me a digital version of enough content to justify three more games, and it won't phase a lot of people. And at this stage most of us frankly shouldn't be getting too excited about that alone. In comparison to the work that goes into layout, layering and producing the physical copies of these things, showing me a jpg really could mean anything -at that point you may not even have a properly formatted printworthy file, it could be a draft image. I'm not accusing SPM of trying to deceive anyone, and I'm NOT saying this is the case, but showing us evidence of physical proofs means infinitely more to a lot of people.

I've spent too much time in forums looking at very high quality fanart/projects that never went any further after showing far more digital art than we've seen at the same quality in the updates. It loses it's meaning after that sort of exposure.

Digital art vs photos of proof pieces is the difference between someone saying "Hey this is what I'm planning to make" and "Hey, this is what I've MADE". One of those carries a lot more weight. I don't expect to see final product on an assembly line, not at all, its just not realistic based on what they've told us -I get that. But I would really like to see what HAS been approved, or at least some examples of what hasn't and why. It would make the whole thing seem so much more real.

They wouldn't be able to effectively provide feedback to the factory without taking and annotating photos, so unless they actually just started proofing (which would be different from what we've been told), they've got snapshots of those. I think that it's reasonable for us to want to see what that progress looks like, and it's generated a lot of good will whenever I've seen other projects do that.


August 14th, 2017, 5:32 am
Profile
Minion
User avatar

Joined: February 11th, 2015, 4:47 pm
Posts: 246
TheHandsomeDan wrote:
I think that the physical portion is actually a REALLY big part at this point. If you're on to proofs, and if they've presumably been through at least a couple rounds of them, they've had ample opportunity to take snapshots. I recognize that being proofs, they may have issues -in fact I EXPECT that they probably did, because if I assume the best of SPM (And I want to assume the best of them), the proofing process has taken this long due to quality/accuracy issues in previous rounds, and SPM wanting to adhere to high expectations. That said, uploading pictures of these proofs would actually be about the BEST way to really give backers confidence of what stages they're at. I've seen numerous other Kickstarter projects upload photos of rejected proofs, being very clear "This was REJECTED, here's why it was rejected, and here are some positive things we can point out as well." As long as you don't inundate backers with that stuff two or three times a week, customers eat that stuff up. It makes the process more tangible, the progress more real.

I never said they didn't show us digital stuff -and I made that distinction on purpose. To be blunt, you can show me a digital version of enough content to justify three more games, and it won't phase a lot of people. And at this stage most of us frankly shouldn't be getting too excited about that alone. In comparison to the work that goes into layout, layering and producing the physical copies of these things, showing me a jpg really could mean anything -at that point you may not even have a properly formatted printworthy file, it could be a draft image. I'm not accusing SPM of trying to deceive anyone, and I'm NOT saying this is the case, but showing us evidence of physical proofs means infinitely more to a lot of people.

I've spent too much time in forums looking at very high quality fanart/projects that never went any further after showing far more digital art than we've seen at the same quality in the updates. It loses it's meaning after that sort of exposure.

Digital art vs photos of proof pieces is the difference between someone saying "Hey this is what I'm planning to make" and "Hey, this is what I've MADE". One of those carries a lot more weight. I don't expect to see final product on an assembly line, not at all, its just not realistic based on what they've told us -I get that. But I would really like to see what HAS been approved, or at least some examples of what hasn't and why. It would make the whole thing seem so much more real.

They wouldn't be able to effectively provide feedback to the factory without taking and annotating photos, so unless they actually just started proofing (which would be different from what we've been told), they've got snapshots of those. I think that it's reasonable for us to want to see what that progress looks like, and it's generated a lot of good will whenever I've seen other projects do that.


Don't forget... they DID show production proofs of Rail Raiders when they had them: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/so ... ts/1788626


August 14th, 2017, 7:43 am
Profile
Denizen
User avatar

Joined: November 3rd, 2016, 9:02 am
Posts: 256
Location: South East England
Danny- fair enough

Insider- erm.. already stated about really.. the quote I was looking for was "I'm waiting to see the first real mold pops of our Wave 1 plastics very soon. And as soon as I have photos - you will be next!" basically, they will show them production proofs when they got the images.. Dan was talking about earlier proofs then that.


August 14th, 2017, 8:20 am
Profile WWW
Mini-Boss
User avatar

Joined: January 12th, 2015, 4:17 pm
Posts: 719
Is so hard to Ninja Division provide this kind of update? https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/po ... ts/1943537

I do not see any benefit from weekly updates that do not bring the answers that long ago the backers want.

_________________
Super Dungeon Links
* | Compendium | * | Aella13 Painting Guide |
* | Card Creator | * | Arcade App |

“Our patience will achieve more than your force.” - Edmund Burke


August 14th, 2017, 8:01 pm
Profile
Denizen
User avatar

Joined: April 16th, 2014, 6:41 pm
Posts: 273
Nephastus wrote:
Is so hard to Ninja Division provide this kind of update? https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/po ... ts/1943537

I do not see any benefit from weekly updates that do not bring the answers that long ago the backers want.

Sure Ninja Division probably should provide a new estimate because a lot of people seems to look for that, but we can't except publisher to have all facts yet. For example, 1) How long this last proofing step takes time (hopefully proofs are sorted with factory soon after Gen Con), 2) Delays about manufacturing miniatures, 3) Delays about getting ship from China to hubs, 4) Delays with customs and 5) More delays when a hub has time to send packages to backers. But if the new, partially realistic target is known, it would be nice to know of course.

Alternatively it might be wise to delay the 1st wave a little more until Arcade Box can be shipped together with it. I would actually prefer this (if delay isn't significant - it probably would be). Then both game modes would arrive at the same time and we would get more new monsters and less complaining from those that aren't interested in Explore. Legends, Bosses and Pet Parade (if that is still far from the finish line) + other extras can follow with Wave 2. They have also hinted 3 Wave policy which might be quite expensive for Ninja Division. Perhaps cost savings could be achieved if Wave 2 ships with Relic Knights 2.0. Anyway last week's update was interesting. Hoping to get more the same about Legends.

What comes to Kingdom Death: Monster's update at least it left me to desire information about when we pay for shipping and, with all these shipping protection upgrades, are shipping costs still within the range originally estimated. However, Adam apparently doesn't have this information yet so we didn't get to know.
EDIT: Also noticed that some people would prefer Adam to update more frequently even if it's just art/sculpt preview. This is what Soda Pop Miniatures occasionally does with weekly updates.
Matthew on KS comments wrote:
@Kingdom Death Thanks for the update, and the reasoning you provided for both the delay, and lack of update before now regarding wave 1 shipping is totally understandable.
That said I think more providing updates more often - even if it's simply "Hey everyone! I cannot get into specifics on fulfillment but here is some new concept art/sculpts/awesome recent paint jobs on existing models! would go a long way in curbing some people's frustration at the lack of communication in general.


August 14th, 2017, 9:04 pm
Profile
Denizen
User avatar

Joined: November 3rd, 2016, 9:02 am
Posts: 256
Location: South East England
This is an old argument called "the grass is always greener".. people say "We want it to be more like Project Y which show us figures".. people with Project Y say "We want it to be more like Project X which gives us information and art".. can't please everyone and its impossible try.. I can't remember if I did post it but I've been for a long time, kinda against public betas in most cases because too many people have input.. vision is lost, the most voice group isn't always the biggest group that would support you in the long run etc.. I hate that the models are pre-assembled so I would fight strongly to remove that.. I don't understand miniature games which EVER have that policy.. but I've seen even standard board games having pre-assembled stuff these days and it seams to be preferred by the public at large.. so I have to accept things despite my liking.. and outside of old gaming circles (we are talking 50s-early 80s), I don't have too much market research to be able to say if it is 100% true that people at large prefer pre-assembled and it's only the old diehards that think assembly and painting is part of the fun, that prefer it otherwise..

anyway.. about it said for me now.. since despite (and I can't 100% remember where it was stated) that American gencon thing not delaying any work on SDE, it does mean no update this week, nothing much more to stay for a couple of weeks I guess..


August 14th, 2017, 9:57 pm
Profile WWW
Ninja Corps
User avatar

Joined: March 25th, 2012, 9:44 pm
Posts: 2302
ManicMan wrote:
This is an old argument called "the grass is always greener".. people say "We want it to be more like Project Y which show us figures".. people with Project Y say "We want it to be more like Project X which gives us information and art".. can't please everyone and its impossible try.. I can't remember if I did post it but I've been for a long time, kinda against public betas in most cases because too many people have input.. vision is lost, the most voice group isn't always the biggest group that would support you in the long run etc.. I hate that the models are pre-assembled so I would fight strongly to remove that.. I don't understand miniature games which EVER have that policy.. but I've seen even standard board games having pre-assembled stuff these days and it seams to be preferred by the public at large.. so I have to accept things despite my liking.. and outside of old gaming circles (we are talking 50s-early 80s), I don't have too much market research to be able to say if it is 100% true that people at large prefer pre-assembled and it's only the old diehards that think assembly and painting is part of the fun, that prefer it otherwise..

anyway.. about it said for me now.. since despite (and I can't 100% remember where it was stated) that American gencon thing not delaying any work on SDE, it does mean no update this week, nothing much more to stay for a couple of weeks I guess..


Just because a beta is open doesn't mean it's majority rules. That was very much the case with the SDE open betas. Justin didn't just bend to the, apparent, majority opinion whenever it presented it's self. It was used for diversity of viewpoints and ideas, and the (subjectively) best ideas were chosen, or built upon, or altered to make the final game. It was a well run beta, and I suspect the legends one will be the same once that rolls around as well.

As for the per-assembled tangent, as someone who used to sell games I can attest that the first edition of SDE necessity of mini assembly turned a LOT of people off from buying it or, worse, made them regret buying it because of it. Unasembled minis is customary in tabletop mini games. But, SDE is not a tabletop mini game. It's a tactical board game, with a (not wholly) different market with different expectations and traditions. But, the pre versus unassembled is a significant thing to consider, and assembled is definitely the way to go for this game.


August 15th, 2017, 12:45 am
Profile
Bottle Cap

Joined: February 14th, 2017, 11:28 pm
Posts: 38
ManicMan wrote:
This is an old argument called "the grass is always greener".. people say "We want it to be more like Project Y which show us figures".. people with Project Y say "We want it to be more like Project X which gives us information and art".. can't please everyone and its impossible try.. I can't remember if I did post it but I've been for a long time, kinda against public betas in most cases because too many people have input.. vision is lost, the most voice group isn't always the biggest group that would support you in the long run etc.. I hate that the models are pre-assembled so I would fight strongly to remove that.. I don't understand miniature games which EVER have that policy.. but I've seen even standard board games having pre-assembled stuff these days and it seams to be preferred by the public at large.. so I have to accept things despite my liking.. and outside of old gaming circles (we are talking 50s-early 80s), I don't have too much market research to be able to say if it is 100% true that people at large prefer pre-assembled and it's only the old diehards that think assembly and painting is part of the fun, that prefer it otherwise..

anyway.. about it said for me now.. since despite (and I can't 100% remember where it was stated) that American gencon thing not delaying any work on SDE, it does mean no update this week, nothing much more to stay for a couple of weeks I guess..


First off, it's a saying, or an adage not an argument.

Secondly, the adage means that the experiences you AREN'T a party to seem better than the ones you are. Typically it is used to make light of, or to invalidate someone's complaint that something they don't have or haven't experienced looks better than what they have or have experienced. I've BEEN on projects where this happened, and they always show digital art/rules as developed first -they also show bits of work toward tangible components as they come along. One does not preclude the other. The saying you've led with doesn't apply here, because I have been a party to the other way of doing things, so I know first hand that it's better. The idea that showing us physical progress would somehow preclude us from digital images is logically flawed... So it would seem that the way you wrote your response shares something in common with the key point you were trying to make.


August 15th, 2017, 11:33 am
Profile
Denizen
User avatar

Joined: November 3rd, 2016, 9:02 am
Posts: 256
Location: South East England
Usagi- yes.. I would agree that open beta doesn't mean majority rule, but I just get the feeling way too much that too many people get an input. how creators deal with that does make the difference. I wasn't saying that Sodapop ran it badly or anything, just that i'm not a fan of open-beta like that, but this is mostly coming from a software side.

and yep.. your view on the pre-assembled side sounds about right. I still greatly prefer them NOT to be, but it's the way things go. If pre-assembled means more buyers, thus more content (and lower prices) then it's a fair trade off..

Danny- yeah.. I was probably wrong with the term argument there.. though really, it's a lyric.. the wording 'The grass is always greener' had it's origin in a song from the early 1900s.. though it goes back to an old idea which I believe was by the roman poet Ovid (I believe, if my latin isn't quite as bad as I believe, 'fertilior seges est alienis semper in agris' (The Harvest is always more bountiful in another's field) in which it DOESN'T really mean what you haven't experienced really.. it's pretty complex.. cause like with all poets lines (well.. mostly good ones) there is more then one meaning and the meaning can be subjective based on the person. and I was more pointing out that people, as a large diverse group, can never be happy because they always want what they don't have, and when they get 'something', they want more. If it was possible for SP to turn around and say in a fornight's time, "Wave One is ready to ship right now and you'll all get it within the week, Oh and it'll now content all the wave 2 content that wasn't more legends based", there would be people that would moan. "Why wasn't this done earlier?", "Why didn't you tell us it was at this stage?", "Why did you promise to show us Proofs and then didn't" etc..

We are being given mostly digital looks. Which is pretty much all we had in this campaign so far (comparing it to past or others is not really any good cause everything is different).. people are moaning that want less digital and more physical. While, like I said, something that is different so there are a completely different set of circumstances to look at), has done more physical and less digital, people are there moaning they want more digital and therefor less physical. This is another's field in that it is NOT the same one we are in. so the saying is pretty on the nose there..

As for the idea that showing more physical means less digital, I didn't say it would preclude, meaning NO digital but they need to do an update a week. things need spacing. there is limited amount of content that can be put in each update. If one update is digital, that means it's not physical. So there is less physical. If it's physical, and not digital, it means less digital. So it would have to be a mixture of both, which means instead of them releasing it as 2 updates, it's combined as 1 update. which means more time taken on the update, and less possible updates in the future.

I'll never say I'm a wordsmith.


August 15th, 2017, 12:14 pm
Profile WWW
Bottle Cap

Joined: February 14th, 2017, 11:28 pm
Posts: 38
ManicMan wrote:
Usagi- yes.. I would agree that open beta doesn't mean majority rule, but I just get the feeling way too much that too many people get an input. how creators deal with that does make the difference. I wasn't saying that Sodapop ran it badly or anything, just that i'm not a fan of open-beta like that, but this is mostly coming from a software side.

and yep.. your view on the pre-assembled side sounds about right. I still greatly prefer them NOT to be, but it's the way things go. If pre-assembled means more buyers, thus more content (and lower prices) then it's a fair trade off..

Danny- yeah.. I was probably wrong with the term argument there.. though really, it's a lyric.. the wording 'The grass is always greener' had it's origin in a song from the early 1900s.. though it goes back to an old idea which I believe was by the roman poet Ovid (I believe, if my latin isn't quite as bad as I believe, 'fertilior seges est alienis semper in agris' (The Harvest is always more bountiful in another's field) in which it DOESN'T really mean what you haven't experienced really.. it's pretty complex.. cause like with all poets lines (well.. mostly good ones) there is more then one meaning and the meaning can be subjective based on the person. and I was more pointing out that people, as a large diverse group, can never be happy because they always want what they don't have, and when they get 'something', they want more. If it was possible for SP to turn around and say in a fornight's time, "Wave One is ready to ship right now and you'll all get it within the week, Oh and it'll now content all the wave 2 content that wasn't more legends based", there would be people that would moan. "Why wasn't this done earlier?", "Why didn't you tell us it was at this stage?", "Why did you promise to show us Proofs and then didn't" etc..

We are being given mostly digital looks. Which is pretty much all we had in this campaign so far (comparing it to past or others is not really any good cause everything is different).. people are moaning that want less digital and more physical. While, like I said, something that is different so there are a completely different set of circumstances to look at), has done more physical and less digital, people are there moaning they want more digital and therefor less physical. This is another's field in that it is NOT the same one we are in. so the saying is pretty on the nose there..

As for the idea that showing more physical means less digital, I didn't say it would preclude, meaning NO digital but they need to do an update a week. things need spacing. there is limited amount of content that can be put in each update. If one update is digital, that means it's not physical. So there is less physical. If it's physical, and not digital, it means less digital. So it would have to be a mixture of both, which means instead of them releasing it as 2 updates, it's combined as 1 update. which means more time taken on the update, and less possible updates in the future.

I'll never say I'm a wordsmith.



Even going back to the original Latin, it still intends that the thing you haven't experienced looks better -I have experienced it, it happens on other projects I'm currently waiting on, and most people familiar with backing these sort of projects are well familiar with it.bit isn't a case of "the grass is always greener", it's a case of "SPM, basically every project but this one HAS done it, why aren't you?"

And I really disagree on your later point. Strongly. It feels like you're reaching pretty hard to get that one. I handle corporate communications that go out bi-weekly in a Fortune100 level company... It's INCREDIBLY rigid and professional, you can bet that a single error on my part would not go over well. But I'm not some 40-something ivy league educated management type, I'm just a little peon working my way through a bachelor's degree. But I do know process and project management -and I'm intimately familiar with the importance of time/value ratios within a given process. The idea that adding or replacing an image, and adding or changing up less than a paragraph's worth of text would result in any kind of noteworthy difference in time-investment is laughable at best.

"Based on overwhelmingly popular request, we wanted to show you a few early proofing samples we've received from the factory. This proof sample was rejected because there was a ______ in the ______, and a visible _______ on the ________. Otherwise, the progress is very near completion. We look forward to showing you a final production copy in the coming weeks."

Typing that on my phone, which is a pretty big pain in my backside, that took less than two minutes to write out. Feel free to borrow that SPM, lol.


August 15th, 2017, 12:39 pm
Profile
Bottle Cap

Joined: February 14th, 2017, 11:28 pm
Posts: 38
So... We're now in final proofs. If I'm being any kind of honest here, it's really tough as an analyst NOT to be skeptical here -but giving SPM the benefit of the doubt, what could we conclude from this?

• SPM told us quite some time ago that the miniatures were all done.

• SPM told us not too long after that they were proofing components -generally that would be anything else we might use for the game: chits, tokens, cards, boards, manuals, etc. This was, I believe, in late May or early June (bit tough to reference this from my cell phone, so if my timeline is off there, please feel free to correct me, I'm not here to spread misinformation)

• Somewhere in this time, we know that the project lead fell I'll. This can delay a project for sure, and I'm glad to hear that he's better. I'm honestly a little annoyed that it sounds like little to nothing was done in his absence... After all, it's hard to be called a lead without having employees report to you. Unless he's micromanaging too the point that his employees have no idea what they're working towards at all (which is generally a no-no in project management 101), they still should have kept things progressing at a reasonably close pace to that which they would have with him there. If one task is pending approval from a lead on a project of this nature, there are probably around a dozen other non-dependent items you can work on while you wait for that approval. But, let's give the benefit of the doubt here (if purely for the sake of this analysis and my sanity), and let's assume that perhaps this was somebody's first time acting as lead, or perhaps their employees have never had to learn to manage their own time before... Don't spend too much time dwelling on that one if you're trying to be positive.

• At this point, we're still in Wave I proofing. Wait, what? But SPM said they had proofed the minis MONTHS AGO, and they were wrapping uo the proofing of components over a month ago -what gives? Before you raise your pitchforks here, there IS room for everything here to be completely factual, so consider the following before getting the angry mob together.

"Wave 1 contents require final internal proof - this is the factory proof of all product and packaging for all Wave 1 Components."

We've covered minis, we've covered components... But there's still something left that a lot of us may be quick to overlook, and they mention it here: packaging. If you haven't backed a lot of games on Kickstarter before, then you probably aren't too familiar with the challenges that come about here. For example, the team behind "Too Many Bones" had to go through several revisions of the internal packaging proofs before the factory sent them something that fit properly in the box (for ease of setup and storage) and that was also STURDY enough to support the weight of one of the heaviest base games I've encountered. I literally own more than 200 different games, not including expansions, so there's at least a fair amount of significance to that statement. Super Dungeon is by no means small, but it is also by no means freakishly heavy like THAT game was. If they're keeping the packaging relatively straightforward and simple like the last few (a foldover cardboard box, and a large open plastic bin or two), then there isn't much to worry about here. That's about as simple as one could hope for. Some games go for vacuum fitted plastic trays that include a slot for each and every plastic miniature, and arrive with the miniatures fitted nicely into those slots. The problem is, that method takes longer, and really doesn't lend itself to efficient storage -many gamers will end up tossing the vacuum trays almost immediately, in order to fit more content into the box for shelf space or for easier transport. It's extra time, effort, and cost for custom work that no one is going to keep. I mean, if you want a display window for a couple minis in an expansion (as many of their products do), that's one thing, but it would be unusual to do that with the core game. So based on historical data, we'll assume that the core miniatures will come somewhat blended into a few plastic baggies for us to sort out on arrival. I'll admit that annoyed me a little the first time I opened an SDE game, but it became very obvious very quickly that there was just too much plastic to store in an organized way in that box without some extraordinary design time and cost. So it's what I've come to expect, and it's not something I hold against them or the product at all.

So let's assume the best of SPM here, and let's say that they're working to review and approve a final completed box with all components, inserts, trays, minis, etc, before it rolls off the assembly line. That's at least a little comforting, right? Right? Work with me here, I'm trying to be positive! If they're working to approve it, then they haven't approved it YET. It may be in the mail to them now, or the factory may be producing the proof copies. If it's in the mail, it could arrive to SPM any minute now, hypothetically speaking. Consider that best case scenario, it would likely take a week or two for all the associated people to look over, review, and approve that final copy before greenlighting production. Going with absolute best case scenarios, that puts us well into September at the very least. If they greenlight final proofs, and somehow already have a factory manufacturing slot reserved (given the end of the year rush by pretty much the entire board game industry that doesn't want to wait a month for Chinese New Year, that seems wildly unlikely, but not impossible), then they could hypothetically have Wave I done... Just in time for Chinese New Year. I can't honestly say I see ANY significant chance of it actually getting on a boat out towards backers before the holiday. So we would realistically be looking at somewhere in March or April at that point. This is assuming everything goes as smoothly as is possible, and we all know that's not how things work in the real world.

I've seen a few people hypothesize, somewhat jokingly, that we would get product around the time of Gencon next year. I don't want to be overly negative, but this isn't out of the realm of possibility if we're being honest with ourselves. But balancing between that extreme scenario, and the best case extreme, somewhere around May or June of 2018 is seemingly pretty likely at this point. Given some of the aftermath I've been reading about with the recently shipped RRI, it's hard to imagine everything falling into place for that earliest timeline.

I'm looking forward to getting the product in hand, but I also realize that if we receive Wave I around the middle of next year, and this is being split into two or three waves, it's not only possible, it's likely that we may not have the complete product in hand until two years after it's original due date. That's... A long wait. I want to be positive here, not in defense of SPM, or to be a "White Knight" as I see people calling them, but because I want to believe I've made a good investment in SPM and that I'll be happy with that decision at the end of the day. So... Optimism (yay?)


August 26th, 2017, 1:59 pm
Profile
Denizen
User avatar

Joined: September 26th, 2014, 6:38 pm
Posts: 371
seems like sodapop are a minatures company who cant make minatures anymore - as they announced way of the fighter will be shipping as two waves wave one the base game without minatures.

is it too cynical to sugest they are now going to produce them in the sde production run.


August 28th, 2017, 5:01 am
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic   [ 2605 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 112, 113, 114, 115, 116, 117, 118 ... 131  Next

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot], malphaeus and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
Designed by STSoftware.