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 Legends Update Thread 
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lucern wrote:
Nephastus wrote:
John Starck Cadice wrote:
I'm here guys, We have been working through our log jam of projects. Needed to move the projects out that we could, as the SDE product got way out of hand in terms of size and complexity. Good news is, and i don't want to speak over my marketing guys, but we are moving very soon now that Rail Raiders and Way of the Fighter are fully delivered. You guys have been so patient, and we want the best SDE for you. We are ramping up a ton of never before seen minis, monsters and heroes to herald the coming of the 1st wave. Rumors of our demise had been horrible to watch in some of the more bitter posts, we are a small team, carefully chewing before swallowing right now to do this right. We want this edition of SDE to be the core you play and bring people to for the next 5+ years


https://www.facebook.com/john.cadice?fr ... cation=ufi

But seems it going to take 5+ years of us just waiting for it...


Awesome that you brought this over from KS, but I read this with a lot different interpretation than you Nephastus (unless I'm misinterpreting you, and that you just mean that the wait is eternal). I remember reading in one of their posts that they want this SD to be THE version for the next few years. It'll be the one they build on with expansions and everything, just like FK was the primary version for awhile and SDE 1.0 before that. It seems that they don't expect to mess around with rules for awhile, because it's the new version of SD.

So instead of saying that it'll be 5 years of waiting, I read that post as saying "We did our simple runs first, and now we're focusing on the complex but way overdue Wave 1 Legends." Frustrating, but good news considering all the negative posts here and on KS, I think.


I think he was being sarcastic :geek:


February 7th, 2018, 2:59 am
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Holy Cross wrote:

I think he was being sarcastic :geek:


Fair 'nuff, but with the tone on the KS page, it fits right in lol.


February 7th, 2018, 3:12 am
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lucern wrote:
Holy Cross wrote:

I think he was being sarcastic :geek:


Fair 'nuff, but with the tone on the KS page, it fits right in lol.


Yup. That message board has gotten pretty toxic. There is some legitimate frustration on there, but there’s some outright, tinfoil hat wearing conspiracy theory level of crazy too :shock:


February 7th, 2018, 3:40 am
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The comment by John Cadice on Chibi Gamers (reposted on to KS and here) basically seams pretty clear to be saying "We are clearing out space for New SD stuff" the "Ton of never before seen minis... to herald the coming of the 1st wave" most likely would refer to known up coming stuff like Frostbyte Level set, Tile Set, etc.

His comments in my eyes (which might be rose tinted) seams to say yes we are feeling sorry, we feel bad cause of the amount of poison spit at us but we are doing okay and are still strong".

of course, some of the poison (which I will admit is partly self created, but only partly) does harm a company, more so a small one.. they need a marketing manger.. I thought they got one a while back.. not saying he isn't doing his job but.. they might need a bit of help..

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February 7th, 2018, 12:33 pm
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Well, going by the 2-week update schedule, we should expect the next SDE Kickstarter update on February 14th, Valentine's Day.

So, in the spirit, I'm going to spell out what I do and do not want out of the next update, because we keep getting updates about things that we did not ask about.

What I want:

I would like two answers about Wave 1.

1) Where's our stuff?
2) When are we getting our stuff?

Easy enough. Though I want to clarify that these questions need tangible answers. 'Soon' is not a tangible answer. 'June 2018' is, for example. Assurances help, here; they really do.

What I do not want:

1) Unless it's entirely about Wave 1 and the above questions (Where is our stuff? When are we getting our stuff?), I do not want to see a Livestream. Not everyone, due to work and/or school or other offline events, will be able to watch. Also, Livestreams tend to ramble on about other things and no one wants to dig to find the information about Wave 1 getting a mention.

2) Sweetheart Candy. The sculpt will be revealed February 14th. That's nice. I don't care; it's not a part of Wave 1 so it's not relevant for the Update. There are plenty of online platforms to reveal it (Facebook/Instagram/Twitter/SPM's website). Please keep it off the Super Dungeon Kickstarter Update.

3) Way of the Fighter is hitting retail. Not relevant to Wave 1. There's other places online and press releases for that. It doesn't belong in a Super Dungeon Kickstarter Update.

4) Pdfs of cards or rules or variant monsters or pets or preview sculpts Legends stuff. I already have enough pdfs of cards and rules for stuff We Do Not Physically Have, and Legends (as we have been repeatedly told) is not in Wave 1. It's not helpful, and it doesn't answer the relevant Wave 1 questions (Where is our stuff? When are we getting our stuff?).

5) Announcements of new SDE stuff. Hey, I do like new stuff, but there's other online venues (Facebook/Instagram/Twitter/SPM's website) to announce new SDE products, and it doesn't belong in the Super Dungeon Kickstarter Update.

6) Vague statements. No Maybes, no Soons, no Possibles. I'm pretty sure the quota for those has been all used up by now in the previous 120 updates. As I said above: tangible answers.

7) Silence. Definitely not a good look. I know there are various rumors and refutations going around; the backers still invested in the Super Dungeon Kickstarter should get some reassurance in the form of answers to the relevant Wave 1 (again, as a reminder: Where is out stuff? When are we getting our stuff?) Rothfussian silence on something this late will probably have a negative overall effect.

The update (going by the two week update schedule) should be in a week, so I wanted to spell this out now so there is time to prepare and avoid those pitfalls of non-information.

Thank you.


* The Press Release for Way of the Fighter said that it was going on retail February 14th, after All Backers have received their rewards. I backed the Spectator tier, and have gotten nothing.


February 8th, 2018, 2:13 am
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I agree with everything Wanderdown has said. I think you make very valid arguments.

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February 8th, 2018, 2:35 am
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Yep. A really good idea on wave 1 delivery would be great to have, especially since we haven't heard much since the "on your doorstep in April" comment.


February 8th, 2018, 4:05 am
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eternaldream wrote:
Yep. A really good idea on wave 1 delivery would be great to have, especially since we haven't heard much since the "on your doorstep in April" comment.


One thing which I wish that ALL Kickstarter companies would learn is to overestimate. I mean, if you really think that you can crank it out quickly and have the game out to us in nine months, then tell us you will have it out to us in a year. That way, if there are any unforeseen delays (like Chinese New Year, I mean who knew that was coming? :P) you have some room to fall back on without upsetting backers that your product is late. But if you do somehow manage to stick to your timelines andget the product out in nine months, then you look like a hero for getting it out early!

I know that Sodapop set themselves way behind when they finally acknowledged that the rules for FK were !SODA! and resolved that they needed to fix them before moving forward. But I am not even talking about that. I am referring to this April deadline. Now, I have no real working knowledge of what is going on, and completely basing my thought here on some of the other explanations of other people. but from what i am hearing it does not sound likely that they will be able to meet this deadline. But this brings me to the original point. Even if they can meet the April deadline, they should have told us June. Either you are on time, or you are praised for being early. Win/Win. Because now, if you do not get them to us by April it will be more cause for grumbling and more faith lost.

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February 8th, 2018, 1:54 pm
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The company aiming to next GENCON as triumphal Super Dungeon release... my "theory" over the situation be dragged up to that event's day will come true... sadly... sigh... and worst: the manager's will do a public declaration which all backer already received their Wave 1 stuff when isn't accurate information as happening to Way of the Fighter's backers and Rail Raiders Infinite as well.

I want to be wrong and the big plan is Wave 1 content be everything except Legends box, since the intangible content related to Explore, Arcade, Pet Parade and Bitey Book extras points they're ready to print some time ago.


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February 8th, 2018, 2:12 pm
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So part of me feels silly for needing to ask this... But in light of the significant number of changes in the extended time it's been since we put money down on Legends; I can't even recall what it is that we'll be getting in the Legends box itself. I know that many of us came on board for a game that would string together campaign with SDE content into cohesive ongoing stories with character progression. Every time I visit the comments section I'm reminded that this is apparently NOT what were getting from it now. With the cast number of updates and the insane comments section volume, it's tough to find anything reasonably far back. Could someone point me in the direction of what we WILL actually be getting in that Legends box now?


February 10th, 2018, 4:33 am
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Okay TheHandsomeDan, I'll break it down for you the best I can. It's true a lot has changed, so hopefully this info helps you out. First off, you can check out all the official Legends book previews. I think I have the most recent ones, but you all can correct me if I'm wrong. I kind of remember there being a breakdown of what actually goes in the Legends box... but I can't find it in the updates. Maybe it's been outdated.

Consul's Grimoire: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/so ... ts/2052663
Item Deck: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/so ... ts/2039213
Hero Handbook: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/so ... ts/2002230

Here's a brief summary of all that information then if you haven't been following. Originally Legends was supposed to be an expansion to Super Dungeon Explore. It would use all your models, cards, tokens, etc. and be compatible with all future releases. Over the course of development, it was found to be too difficult to accomplish this feat. To make the game playable, they decided to make Legends have its own rules and system. While similar in rules to Super Dungeon Explore, it's not compatible. For example:

- Power levels have been toned down and many rules are simplified. For example most heroes have a move of 4 spaces, 3 wounds, and one action a turn. It's a bit limiting, but does give heroes room to grow later. Other gameplay things have been tweaked, such as heroes having to first move, then attack. You can't split it up anymore.

- Instead of choosing a hero with their own card, you instead choose a "Class" and a "Job" to start with. Classes are generic archetypes that give you your starting stats and abilities, such as being a barbarian or thief. Jobs are named after heroes from the game, and will give you another ability that the hero has. For example the Barbarian class you can have the Claw Tribe Barbarian job.

- Many abilities, skills, and mechanics have been ported over from Super Dungeon Explore, but they may not mean the same thing. For example the "Rage" ability of the Claw Tribe Barbarian does not give you an attack after every space you move, but instead allows you to attack during your movement.

- As you level up (of which the mechanics are still vague) you gain Ranks which allow you to increase your abilities or gain new skills.

- There are new items and loot decks just for Legends, that I believe were going to be on mini cards. Many of the Loot ones are similar to cards we already have, but have more Legends info on them. Heroes can only equip two pieces of Loot now, but can convert each piece into crafting parts to create more. Again, the mechanics are still kind of vague.

That's all I can really think of. There is a lot to go over, but it's not really organized. A lot of the mechanics are not fleshed out yet, and are more talked about in theory. The biggest thing to take away is that it is a whole new system. It's not bad.... but it's not what a lot of us were expecting. I suggest you give it a read and try it out. The Consul's Grimoire does give a sample adventure.... but it's still very, very... very rough.


February 10th, 2018, 1:20 pm
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The Gender Swap figures are also part of the Legends Boxset, along with the double sided map for prebuilt compagins and some small tiles to add to your previous tiles for home brew and later missions.. Can't remember to hunt through KS's TC system to find the posts that stated them, but it has been

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February 10th, 2018, 1:25 pm
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Maybe a infographic could be usefull to all backers understand what we'll get inside every box. Most of backers don't follow so closely what happening related to this campaign and are lost due the changes. Many stuff was added after campaign. Who choosed Legendary or Completionist pledges have the ensurance of all listed itens during campaign and ninja additions after campaign will be inside the packages.

I noticed the miss of Spiter creep/pet cards on Pet Parade PDF.

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February 10th, 2018, 2:23 pm
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This actually got me looking for the infographics they put up last summer... Except they're gone. The images no longer exist. So, that's convenient. It actually looks like a few things have selectively disappeared that were there before. Funny how that works.

Also funny: Not a single representative of SPM has posted or replied to comments on ANY of their projects in exactly one month now -the last one was by Ninja Scott on January 11th.

Where it gets a lot LESS funny is that if you go over to the StartFinder miniatures page, you'll see that Ninja Scott was active in those comments on January 23rd under the Ninja Division login. Different companies indeed. Ten full days later and he was still active under the other login, while ignoring anything under the SPM account.

So you've got one account with four active/recently active projects (because projects that have shipped in the last six months do tend to still be active), and a whole lot of good questions -and another account with ONE active/recently active project, a project that isn't late... And you prioritize the smaller account that looks better.

I can't help but thinking back to when they tried to claim ND and SPM weren't the same company and weren't connected at all -which lasted less than a day before angry backers pulled the public registration info for each company and proved that they not only had the same employees, but the same owners all in the same place. When everyone saw the launch of Starfinder under ND as SPM trying to pull one over on the Kickstarter community... Given the fact that they were choosing to reply to things in the starfinder page while actively ignoring the projects under SPM, it's hard not to suspect they're trying to legally abandon ship and claim no ties to the sinking wreckage of SPM. Call it a conspiracy theory if you will, but between the canned non-updates with no actual status or progress information for more than a month, and the total failure to keep promises on video updates since, what November? October?

There simply isn't a good way to spin this situation. We aren't in the same place we were a year ago -sheer corporate upkeep has inevitably consumed more of the company's finances (even if you suggest that Starfinder might have infused more money into the budget, it really didn't make THAT much money. Assuming that the company has at least five employees making average wages, that might give them a few more months after overhead operational costs), manufacturing still hasn't been scheduled, and they've posted a new project under an alternative corporate entity allowing the same owners and employees to distance themselves while taking more people's money. They haven't launched all that much new product in the last twelve months, and the fact that RRI was already selling for about $20 on black Friday isn't a good sign -its not popular enough to be a "loss leader" attractant, but it's too soon for shops to be reducing the cost on it unless someone cut them one heck of a deal on the game before most backers had received theirs. And it's not like it was just one OLGS doing that.

I want this to be good, I want this to ship, but between the likely pre-written updates, the lack of any SPM communication on Kickstarter for the last month, and the track record on this project so far, I am genuinely more concerned about this than I ever have been. Can someone point out a GOOD sign in the last month? I'm not being sarcastic, I'm genuinely asking because I want to believe these guys will deliver but it's getting harder to do that.


February 11th, 2018, 10:00 am
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I know for Legends, Justin was doing most of the talking in the comments. It's been maybe 3 weeks or so though since he has said anything. Last time I saw on the comments he was dealing with family problems and needed some time to take care of it. I don't know what Scott or anyone else hasn't stepped up to communicate. Maybe they don't have time, or maybe they just don't find it constructive with all the negativity on the comments in Kickstarter.


February 11th, 2018, 3:41 pm
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eternaldream wrote:
I know for Legends, Justin was doing most of the talking in the comments. It's been maybe 3 weeks or so though since he has said anything. Last time I saw on the comments he was dealing with family problems and needed some time to take care of it. I don't know what Scott or anyone else hasn't stepped up to communicate. Maybe they don't have time, or maybe they just don't find it constructive with all the negativity on the comments in Kickstarter.


it's probably a combination of the two...but I'd guess heavily leaned to the last point there. It's very discouraging to want to try and communicate with people when, whenever you do, the response is "yeah, so, and what else? you're not doing enough, your company is going to die". I'd not want to engage with that either. :P


February 11th, 2018, 5:28 pm
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I second that.. and even if they did, they would be called a liar and a con artist.... in theory, when/if (depending on your point of view) it is delievered, that have a great chance of winning a few libel cases.. in a way, for a small company, it's a shame it doesn't come to that.. word of mouth and make or brake a company like this.. Some of the lack of information can partly be to blame on there part through.. that said, most larger companies give FAR less information and can be much more delaied. True, people have to right to complain, but people are still stating theory as fact... always annoies me that..

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February 11th, 2018, 5:46 pm
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ManicMan wrote:
. True, people have to right to complain, but people are still stating theory as fact... always annoies me that..


1000% agree with you here. It’s an angry mob out there, with tinfoil hat wearing conspiracy theorists angrily putting “facts” out there.

I look at it this way, Shigeru Miyamoto, a seasoned veteran of his industry, underestimated the development time of Legend of Zelda:Breath of the Wild by two years. But it was done when it was done and it was amazing.

No one was entitled to weekly/monthly updates with detailed information on Nintendo’s current financial state during the process. Didn’t matter if you’d preordered the game and GameStop already had your money. It was done when it was done.

I understand there are differences. Some people want their money back and SPM might not be in a position to do that overnight. It bothers me more that the angry mob thought they could treat another person (Scott) however they want, demand information like they are entitled to it, then wonder what happens when the information conduit shuts off.


February 11th, 2018, 6:36 pm
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it's called a 'run on the banks'. oringally only happened to banks but happens to others too. Banks don't have a HUGE amount of money. People 'store' there money in the bank, the bank then uses this to fund loans, staff costs etc. As long as money from the loans keeps returning (with interest as it mostly does), they do all right. Every so often, they will get a bit lax and take bigger and bigger risks because the pay off in the end is greater and greater (Like you can make a bit of money betting £5 on each horse in a horse race, and you have a fair chance that doing this with 4 or 5 races a day, you will make a tiny profit. BUT betting all that on one horse, can give a MUCH greater payout, but with a much higher risk. You then 'hire' someone to work out the odds of each risk to know which are the best to take. but no chance it'll ever be 100% successful.. As long as you got a good flow, and people only take out some of there money, you are safe. but if a few too many big risks fail, and people start to panic, they all go to the bank and take out there money so that there money is safe.. but since the banks don't keep that amount, people can't get all there money out and the bank is in trouble with trying to pay it out..

Any canadian's should know this as last year there was a problem with Home Captail group that has lead to 10% of the workforce being fired and 90% of there high interest accounts being closed. There was also a big worldwide one in 2008 because alot of people in various different counties had interestments in overseas banks (in this case, an Icelandic bank 'Landsbanki') which created a problem. Of course, the first real one was 1656 in Sweden.. that lead to Johan Palmstruch, the owner of the first european bank to give out banknotes, to be imprionsed only for 2 years at the time, but oringally on a death penalty, and died a year after getting out of prison.

A Kickstarter is created to fund a project in full or part. So if people start to panic at a late stage and want there money back, it can be tricky cause of how much has been spent. In this case, We can just about estimate how much of it was spent as a ball park figure.. Steel models aren't cheap. We know atleast 2 war bands have the steels completed. Test shots aren't 100% free either.

I see Miyamoto as a younger boy on the block but.. yeah, thinking about it.. the 80s were some time back now weren't they? Can you believe Howard Scott Warshaw is 60? Or Silas Warner was 54 when he died in 2004, so he would be 68 now..

I kinda gave up on Zelda after the N64.. good work (even if OoT, which while a great game, was kinda a remake of Link to the Past) but after that they kinda went silly with stuff.. i guess it's the world we are in.. the 80s brought about the 'dark and gritty hero' where you couldn't be a hero unless you were broading and foul mouthed and killed for fun... Zelda games went from great family fantasy games to... well.. whatever they wanted to do.. and they started to really screw around with timelines.. anyway.. unrelated.. but what about Mother 3 by Shigesato Itoi.. Started making it in 1994 for the Snes (Super Famicon), then moved to the N64, then moved to the Game Cube, then finally to the Game Boy advanced and got released finally in 2006 (in 2004 it was 60% complete, in 1999 it was 30% complete).. very little progress stated, alot of promises.

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February 11th, 2018, 7:05 pm
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Holy Cross wrote:
ManicMan wrote:
. True, people have to right to complain, but people are still stating theory as fact... always annoies me that..


1000% agree with you here. It’s an angry mob out there, with tinfoil hat wearing conspiracy theorists angrily putting “facts” out there.

I look at it this way, Shigeru Miyamoto, a seasoned veteran of his industry, underestimated the development time of Legend of Zelda:Breath of the Wild by two years. But it was done when it was done and it was amazing.

No one was entitled to weekly/monthly updates with detailed information on Nintendo’s current financial state during the process. Didn’t matter if you’d preordered the game and GameStop already had your money. It was done when it was done.

I understand there are differences. Some people want their money back and SPM might not be in a position to do that overnight. It bothers me more that the angry mob thought they could treat another person (Scott) however they want, demand information like they are entitled to it, then wonder what happens when the information conduit shuts off.


Here's the thing though -Soda Pop Miniatures set that expectation themselves. They have, time and again, set standards for communication and interaction with their backers. When Justin left (not three weeks ago, over a month ago) it was established that Scott was going to take up the reigns interacting with customers. That interaction had been fostering a more positive relationship with those of us waiting for the product to be shipped. Having someone there to answer questions, even if they may be mundane, goes a long way. And in the absence of any employee posting or replying there for the last MONTH, yes, it started to get negative, and at this point some users have even become hostile. In honestly surprised that certain people haven't been banned, but then again if SPM isn't in a place right now (purely speculation, not pretending to 'know' this as a fact) then banning users who have paid for the product would not be advantageous to them, as it means forcing a refund to the user at the same time.

So sure, it's funny how consumers expect to receive exactly what they're told they'll get. It's also funny how failing to do that leads to a more negative consumer base, that can even start to fringe on hostility when left completely unaddressed. It's also funny how we all plunked our money down (the single biggest way to say "I want THIS") for one product, but we're told long after the fund raising campaign ended that apparently we actually wanted something totally different. Nobody took a vote on this, it would have been easy to put up a quick poll so that they could easily get responses outside of the regular beta testing group. I think it's fair to question whether one could have argued that "most" or "all" of us wanted it, had they done that. Who knows, maybe it would have shown us that a majority truly did want the overhaul. We can't really get the same view after the fact. What I'm trying to say here is that yes, some people have gotten demanding -but honestly a lot of the entitled demanding behavior I've seen has been in response to not getting what Soda Pop has promised us themselves. I don't know a lot of people who are happy after being denied the things they've been told they can expect.

Overall, I think that some people are getting way too comfortable on their high horses on both sides of the argument. There are those who have literally started cursing at the company and it's employees regularly -confirming either that the company is literally ignoring us altogether, or that they are so tight on cash that they can't afford to ban someone due to the cost of his refund. The earlier of those two seems evident at the very least. On the other hand, their are some folks in there who have gone into full-on "white knight overdrive" deriding anyone with a potentially different perspective on matters. Neither expression is totally healthy for the community.

I think that with the status of things, it's okay to discuss things in a friendly and civil manner, without insulting each other and without being offended just because someone disagrees. I don't think any game company is wholly good, nor is any wholly evil -except maybe Asmodee (jk). Given a long enough track record, they all do things that make customers happy and upset, and to me it seems foolish to pretend otherwise in either direction. I've thoroughly enjoyed Super Dungeon in it's prior iterations (haven't tried Arena, as I'm not huge on pvp stuff), and I'd like to get more. But whether you are optimistic or pessimistic, I think we can probably agree that there is at least room for some of us to be reasonably upset about the delays and the lack of meaningful updates and communication -I say reasonably, because I don't condone the users who have gone totally hostile towards employees or each other.


February 11th, 2018, 10:29 pm
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