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Denizen
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Joined: November 3rd, 2016, 9:02 am
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Location: South East England
yeah, there is a big difference between "We are ready, can you start now" and a factory saying "We have a spare slot and we can start manufacturing". You do need to remember they don't OWN the factory... very few companies do that.


September 16th, 2017, 8:19 am
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ManicMan wrote:
yeah, there is a big difference between "We are ready, can you start now" and a factory saying "We have a spare slot and we can start manufacturing". You do need to remember they don't OWN the factory... very few companies do that.


Did you actually read my last post before your "I agree with the guy before me" response? I had taken great lengths to show a differentiation between the factory and the company selling the product. The only way you'd miss that is if you didn't bother to read what you were replying to.

Neither of these responses actually answers my question -Inunderstajd the concept of schedule slots. We've all discussed them ad naseum right here in this thread, it's been one of several topics that we've defined quite well over the past twenty pages of this conversation. Conversation that you and I have already been a thorough part of.

So, let's try this once more...
We assume (as SPM has informed us) that:
-Content creation is done
-Design is done
-Layout is done
-Proofing is done

We also know that proofing is the last stage that happens before manufacturing begins...

How can you say, "Proofing is done, we're now starting production" on a product, but come back a week or two later to say "Manufacturing has not yet begun, we'll let you know when it does"? If proofing is done, and you're telling me production has already started, then what does that mean if not manufacturing? If you're WAITING for a time slot with your manufacturer, then you aren't STARTING anything, you're waiting to.

So, again, where in this tightly explained status, is there a missing detail that fixes this inconsistency?


September 17th, 2017, 2:56 pm
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Denizen
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I'm sorry, I forgot not even one understands manufacturing.. Anyone that deals with it knows that Manufacturing and production are HUGLEY different.. I'll try to explain some of the key differences (cause some idiots seam to think they are the same thing)

Manufacturing is the process of converting raw materials into a final product.
Production is the production is the process of converting any type of input into an output.

more then trying to do a full explaining of the two myself, i'll just like this for you:
http://keydifferences.com/difference-be ... ction.html

that'll explain a bit about how they are NOT the same thing which you seam to think they are

Now, that explains that bit, lets move on to the bit you didn't state but implied (and stated in your second post) that Manufacturing is the direct follow on from proofing and the only stage of production at that point (since the whole process from the start is production)

SPM have done all there can do on there side. They move into the 'final' production phase. This step itself would contain:
-Final transfer to factory
-Factory booking and gather of materials
-Factory production line producing figures etc
-Factory assembly
-Factory shipping

Now in a lot of places, materials will be in hand. IF I go to a professional printer, I often expect they have ink and paper in stock. this is not always the case so after I sent it to them and they have started production, they need to get the ink, paper, and then start manufacturing.

They would most likely have sent everything to the factory now. proofing has been done so they can't touch any more (it's been Locked down). The factory would say Fine, all ready and we will start now. production has started.
BUT there might be a few days (or even weeks) before manufacturing at the factory has begun. They might have full lines either running late or just not a slot ready. They might be waiting on delivery of raw materials such as plastic, card etc. Hard to say since they don't often give this information out to the customer.

Now sorry, but I'm not in the mood to be anything but blunt, more so with people being blunt with me, but with this information that production and manufacturing has a few stages and various factors come into account, Where in this process which information is factory internal (sometimes some will give you some information in how long things ARE taking, but a lot of the time they will moan at you a lot if you keep bugging them, something my local mechanic knows from contact with a electronics manufacture) is there a inconsistency?


September 17th, 2017, 3:50 pm
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Despite your rude reply, and your indignant approach throughout, you still fail to address the core question. You resort to childish name calling while still failing to address the core question.

I understand,(despite your failure to observe this) that production can often be a blanket term that applies to an entire project. I would venture that most here understand this.

However, in the context provided via updates, there is an inconsistency that left room for seemingly only one interpretation of their intended meaning. A subsequent update proved what had previously been the only sensible conclusion for that usage to be false as well. This leaves the very real question of what they in fact DID mean, since they used the term incorrectly and no logical explanation seems to fit the events and status as they have been given to us.

If you've completed everything from concept, through design, layout, etc, and gone through the proofing process, and THEN proceed to say in such context that you are NOW beginning production, one can assume you are not beginning production in the sense that you're starting from concept -you've already explained that you've done that. So in that context, the statement only leaves the conclusion that you are referring to PHYSICAL production, little else would make sense.

One also would not say they are "starting" a process which they are actually waiting for. If you singed up for, or planned to sign up for a "behind the wheel" exam for a driver's license, it can safely be said you have not started the exam. I have reserved a ticket for an upcoming process coordination seminar, but it would not be said that I have started the seminar. An event that has been scheduled for the future has not been started (unless you happen to possess a working tardis or delorian perhaps?). At best it may be said to be 'pending'.

Understanding that factory time slots must be scheduled, and are likely subject to scheduling around other projects, but have not started physical manufacturing yet -what new step that they refer to as the recently started "production" might they have entered since proofing and before manufacturing?


September 18th, 2017, 3:02 am
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Denizen
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After being called a blind idiot, I didn't mind being that rude as the ship had already sailed.. and didn't feel like trying to be taticful..

anyway..

SPM:
Quote:
We continue to work on delivery for the 1st waves, as projects now shift to production. We will of-course, update you the moment we can confirm manufacturing has begun.


Tranc:
Quote:
It sounds like they've told the factory to begin production, but the factory may have its own schedule/queue, and they haven't heard back that the physical products are being made yet.


and again, will restate what seams to be the situation: SPM had moved into current production phase. External factory has yet to confirm their manufacturing phase has began. I do no see any problem understanding this nor any hidden areas. Production and manufacture aren't the same, there is really TWO different companies at play at this point. I just can't understand where any confusing and your initial insult for me agreeing with Tranc came from. While I have been rude (I openly admit it when I am) in trying to clear up the point as best I can from what I know and what has been stated, you seam to not understand at all.. While also seem to call me childish for a point I'll admit, while being completely blind to your own insulting attitude against me since I agreed with someone trying to explain what it seams to be to you. it seams the 'only sensible conclusion' seams to vary a lot between people, so that it's quite possible it wasn't the ONLY sensible conclusion but you also seam to say by your wording that your conclusion must be right else people have been lying. I can't even see how the previous update (saying that are finalizing there timelines for manufacturing) leads to any conclusion that manufacturing must be starting.. they even state they will give a date on the manufacturing and prep (which is the stage after it) when it has ben confirmed.

This is going to go nowhere right now.. ego sum saturi haec....


September 18th, 2017, 11:59 am
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ManicMan wrote:
After being called a blind idiot, I didn't mind being that rude as the ship had already sailed.. and didn't feel like trying to be taticful.


Yeah, you should probably go back and re-read a few things, because I never called you a 'blind idiot' or an 'idiot'. I've said that your own name calling, which came about without due provocation, is childish -and I stand by that. This perceived original insult, and the hostility that you brought with it, has all been in your head.

ManicMan wrote:
I just can't understand where any confusing and your initial insult for me agreeing with Tranc came from. While I have been rude (I openly admit it when I am) in trying to clear up the point as best I can from what I know and what has been stated, you seam to not understand at all.. While also seem to call me childish for a point I'll admit, while being completely blind to your own insulting attitude against me since I agreed with someone trying to explain what it seams to be to you. it seams the 'only sensible conclusion' seams to vary a lot between people, so that it's quite possible it wasn't the ONLY sensible conclusion but you also seam to say by your wording that your conclusion must be right else people have been lying.


You bring up a valid point regarding the "only" interpretation of SPM's loose wording. Clearly I would assume that having "started" the next step of production, that would indicate manufacturing had commenced. Obviously though, you have another interpretation, which involves them actually moving to schedule manufacturing. This, to my mind, is not what one would describe as a noteworthy phase. In an admittedly exaggerated capacity, it sounds a bit like saying you've started a new draft of your college thesis when you have actually just sharpened a pencil. But this is a matter of opinion, and subject to each individual's interpretation.

ManicMan wrote:
This is going to go nowhere right now.. ego sum saturi haec....

This I can mostly agree with. I thought the latin was a nice touch, in contrast to repeated failure to spell such complicated words as "seem". But that's not name calling, that's just an observation of facts from your own posts. Given your behavior toward me, and the accusations you've pointed at me, I'm more than justified in this.

All in all, your last post, while still laced with malcontent from the perceived slight of name calling, did bring about a fully realized alternate interpretation of the updates in question, for that I thank you. Perhaps in the future you can take a bit more care to ensure I've actually called you a name before resorting to the tone of discourse you did in this case. Friendly debate is much more interesting and useful, and to be clear: I've already stated that I have not called you an idiot here, nor have I ever considered you to be any such variety of the term.


September 18th, 2017, 2:11 pm
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Denizen
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You guys should continue this in private if you need to. :|


September 18th, 2017, 2:38 pm
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Abbadhon wrote:
You guys should continue this in private if you need to. :|


I think it's done, but I'm happy to switch over to private messages if Manic still feels there is more to discuss. In the meantime, I would be curious to hear how many of us here are truly waiting for the 'game(s)' as opposed to 'just the minis'. With the faint hope of getting something by/around the holiday season (I did say "faint hope"), after this long I suspect that some buyers may have either shifted their interest elsewhere or become even more eager to play the new mode.


September 18th, 2017, 4:01 pm
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Denizen
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Actually the new rules are pretty good, so i'm waiting for both because i'm tired of playing with paper cards.
But i think my minis will more easilly find use in my gaming group with the Legends ruleset (if our group like it), or with D&D 5Edition rules in the other case.


September 18th, 2017, 4:40 pm
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I would say I'm truly waiting for the game. All I want is to just play some Super Dungeon: Explore.
And I know the components are basically done and released for beta-print'n'play... But I'll be damned if I want to play with flimsy print-outs for a game I've spent hundreds of dollars on.
The quality of the physical components is 50% of this game. I won't dignify it by playing it at my table until I have the real thing.

And it's such a shame, because I have a group who WANT to play SDE, but they share my opinion of needing to have the real components.

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September 18th, 2017, 4:42 pm
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The new games are solid. I was well into the playtesting for both modes. It will be great to play with all the bits n' bobs how their supposed to be. The minis may or may not get used elsewhere. All depends on if they fit in with whatever else it is that needs minis at the time. But the actual game was, and still is,the main reason for getting all this, for me.


September 18th, 2017, 6:32 pm
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Minion
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Yeah, I want the game. There are loads of cool minis that SPM makes that I don't buy because I don't have rules for using them with Super Dungeon. All those cool ronin and ninja and what-not in the clearance sale right now look fantastic, and if they had Super Dungeon cards I would be like SPROINK and buy them. But they don't so I don't care. I want the game. The minis are fantastic, sure, but I'm here for the game.


September 18th, 2017, 7:39 pm
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Denizen
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Abbadhon wrote:
You guys should continue this in private if you need to. :|


Naw, I'm good.. I could point out a couple of things I don't agree with but nothing much. I have no problem with getting into a fight one moment and then the next having a laugh ^_^

Oh and max, some of the Ninja stuff there are cards for as part of that cross over box they made. Doesn't interesting me though


September 18th, 2017, 8:24 pm
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Minion
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https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/17 ... ect_update

Different game, not necessarily the same company, but the bit about China's pollution concerns makes me wonder if that might be part of the holdup on the factorys' end...


September 19th, 2017, 8:12 am
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Basically, there have been some checks in the law there and some factories only do the 'bare minimum' required by law more then what they should do etc, so checks are being done and some upgraded to a more decent standard. So its hard to say.

I do wonder if they'll start improving things a bit more with regards to staff welfare.. like better safeguards with that paint... unrelated to SPM of course, but they use the BEST paint for figures or anything in the world.. but when it's wet, it's extremely dangerous so banned in most countries..


September 19th, 2017, 8:28 am
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I want the game for sure... but I do think I've missed the boat for actually enjoying it now. My son has gotten bored of playing the original over and over again for the last few years so other than a game or two with the new minis when they arrive I'm not sure I will manage to pull him back. We've tried a few other tabletop games and nothing has really caught his attention so that's sad. If this had been delivered when it was originally meant to be then it would have been perfect and would have carried him comfortably through into a long term hobby but it dropped off the radar and Minecraft filled the gap!

Personally I don't have anyone else to play board / tabletop games with so at this point I'm just looking at over $300 worth of minis that will suddenly have to live somewhere in my house despite never being used. It's very sad. I still look forward to getting them... but it's really hard to feel any real excitement about it all at this point. Especially since it seems pretty obvious it will probably end up being into 2018 before the first wave turns up. I was gifted my pledge by family members in place of my birthday and Christmas gifts for 2015, 2016 and 2017 and, given that we are on an incredibly tight income, I've not had a new mini or game experience since pledging for this, I've just had to sit around watching people playtesting rules and having discussions that mean nothing to me. I have to admit that I myself am finding it hard to maintain an interest at this point. I just hope the minis are awesome when they arrive. I never did get around to painting the Ninja Allstars models, there was something fussy about them that I just didn't have any fun with.

I think the communication has been really good compared to most KS I have been part of in terms of regularity and honesty but to call the details nebuluous would be incredibly generous. I don't think anyone that backs board games and minis expects them to meet the deadline but I am surprised that we are now nearly a year overdue and still can't actually be told even a possible shipping window even in terms of like... Spring 2018 or something.

Doesn't help of course that I can't afford a Testudo Tower either... the only significant thing that has appeared since the kickstarter campaign because A) I can't spend family funds on minis...they come from seasonal gifts which are still tied up in this kickstarter and B) apparently the UK doesn't need a proper stockist for this stuff??

Ho Hum... chin up what what.


September 19th, 2017, 9:41 am
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Denizen
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as they go on, the figures seam to go less Chibi and more SD (thin line built chibi is more rounded where SD is any deformed type.. which SD includes Chibi but Chibi doesn't include SD). a lot of fussy detail which you need to get a knife out to be able to cut the figures to paint well..

As for shipping window. It does depend on the factory. IF they are late or anything, it knocks everything back and I can see why they don't want to say much on bits about that. when they get confirmed information on manufacture, I do expect some nice news.. either a semi-fixed delivery date (which will, of course, be much later for me as I'm in the UK) OR news about more stuff in wave 1.


September 19th, 2017, 10:09 am
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insider714 wrote:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1778045168/gnomes-and-associates/posts/1990824?ref=backer_project_update

Different game, not necessarily the same company, but the bit about China's pollution concerns makes me wonder if that might be part of the holdup on the factorys' end...


It's a good question, really. There's a LOT of global politics involved in this actually. Most of the developed world has long been pressuring China to improve both working pay/conditions and pollution. Without getting too embroiled into the ethical debate side of things, here's a "high level" summary for the two biggest issues that seem to pop up year after year.

As labor goes, I wouldn't count on anything changing there any time soon. I suppose that's "good" for those of us who to enjoy cheap manufacturing costs, but at times I'm not entirely proud to be supporting that. Either way, they've come under threat of sanctions and the like from the U.N. several times, and all they've really done was to hide the issue until inspections we're over, but the conditions never actually change or improve. There have been headlines about it before. I'm not saying this to take a political stance, just pointing out the likelihood of it changing or being an issue in regards to products like this one. I'd rather not get into the ethical political debate of it here, but historical background helps understand where things are today.

As for the pollution side of things -yes, China is the number one in pollution globally. That's been pretty consistent for some time. This area HAS seen some changes over the last decade, but not as much as one might think.

Why is there so much pollution coming out of China? There's a simple answer: because there's so much low cost manufacturing coming out of China. Plastics, resins, and the like can't be produced without generating a certain amount of pollution (at least not with economical reason). Where does the entire world seem to turn for cheap labor and manufacturing? China. On the one hand, it could be said that we (the rest of the world) have contributed to this problem by utilizing their labor and manufacturing force the way we have for the last several decades. After all, if this sort of production wasn't profitable to them, and wasn't in demand, they wouldn't have had any reason to turn into the manufacturing giant their country is today.

With more of the world becoming conscious of the global effects of pollution, pressure on China is mounting to reduce their pollution output. But this industrial manufacturing machine wasn't built for environmentalists, it didn't spring up overnight in a time when that was a huge factor to most people's minds. For how well established and firmly rooted things are, it's not an easy or cheap undertaking to reduce emissions in manufacturing. And it doesn't help that most of the world keeps calling on them to produce the materials that generate the highest levels of pollution. Ironically, many companies broker deals with Chinese manufacturers so that they can claim a significantly lower carbon footprint in their business -after all, THEY didn't produce all those fumes and gasses, they just happened to purchase the conveniently made product, right?

This puts China in a precarious place. On the one hand, there's pressure to lower pollution emissions to something more in line with the rest of the world... On the other hand, their bread and butter is basically rooted in the rest of the world paying them to do something that pollutes the environment. Keeping feelings and personal opinions aside, that's not an enviable position to be in.

As a result, China has taken minimal steps to curtail their pollution output. They've set forth the bare minimum that the rest of the global economy will begrudgingly accept. This results in changes to what is required by the Chinese government's to minimize the issue.

But there's another layer to this, some may have already read between the lines on this. Those changes and improvements cost money. And how do you recoup money you didn't expect to spend? You try to produce a higher volume at the lowest possible cost. The changes implemented by the Chinese government don't limit the overall pollution any one factory or group can generate, they focus on changes that will reduce the effects per batch/unit/etc. So, you might observe that a batch of miniatures puts out we'll say "10 pollution points", it's just a basic number to illustrate a point, that number isn't specifically drawn from or supposed to represent any real figure. The Chinese government might decide that a certain technique must be done differently, or a certain additional step must be taken, which they've found reduces the output of that same batch down to "9 pollution points" (again, this is not in any way the actual measurement of such things, just a simplified example.) So you've effectively reduced pollution from those products by 1/10 or 10% right? Awesome. Except that the change costs money for factories to implement. And in order to make up that money, they'll likely take on additional order volume. So now that factory produces 500 batches instead of 400. You might have dropped the pollution per batch by ten percent, but now they're producing 25% more product -which means the pollution output is now worse overall.

Again, these are not actual figures, nor is it the way these things are specifically measured, but it makes the point effectively enough.

So what does this mean for customers like us waiting for these products? Not all that much actually. China isn't going to reduce their output, just like those of us who are gainfully employed wouldn't simply choose to attend work less often with a long term pay cut. Factories may occasionally need to shut down in order to update for newer standards, but you can her that leading up to the shut down and immediately after coming back into production, they're going to ramp things up to compensate.

So... I wouldn't worry too much about it, so far as it pertains to products like Super Dungeon Explore and other plastic heavy boardgames. Again, I'm not here to get into a debate about politics or global warming. I've made an effort to present this in a straightforward manner that can be easily understood by anyone, without needing a lot of background in the topic. As many of us here use and purchase this sort of product regularly, the deeper understanding has some strong potential relevance crossover. Hopefully it helps, or is at least interesting for others.


September 19th, 2017, 2:21 pm
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As Chibi/SD Ameritrash game, Super Dungeon is eating the dust of Arcadia Quest forever, despite of differences, both are part of same niche. I don't know the entire story around the end of partnership between SPM and CMoN beyond the Relic Knights chibis exclusivities, but just this reason is pointless nowadays with the change of Kickstarter Exclusives policy here and maybe the story of this game could be different to the best way instead of falling on the vortex of oblivion and disappear.

Several months ago I was pointing about the time working against the company to destroy the fan base interest on the Super Dungeon and here we are. We are on golden age of boardgames with many best options popping around, this way SPM must put more celerity AND quality on their rulebooks / game mechanics (make a hybrid Euro with miniatures, maybe?) if they desire to survive on the market.

And please, it's a shame these most recent crossover miniatures made in resin with such flesh to remove! http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/iSgAAOSwU ... -l1600.jpg
If the company drop the ball where they excels, turn off the lights and close the door of the company.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/17 ... ect_update
Quote:
Please note that we do our best to deliver before the end of the year and that we will not launch our next Kickstarter (Arena Bots) until we deliver this one!

This kindness the backers was expecting from SPM/ND! Instead, we have multiple kickstater campaigns without the complete cycle from start to delivery and lots of angry backers

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Last edited by Nephastus on September 19th, 2017, 2:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.



September 19th, 2017, 2:32 pm
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Denizen
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we have returned to the golden age of board games?.. I lose count.. how many gold before it goes up to platinum or diamond? I know you need 10 Bronze to make a Silver...


September 19th, 2017, 2:49 pm
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