View unanswered posts | View active topics It is currently July 21st, 2017, 7:12 am



Reply to topic  [ 2251 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 90, 91, 92, 93, 94, 95, 96 ... 113  Next
 Legends Update Thread 
Author Message
Minion
User avatar

Joined: September 11th, 2013, 3:03 am
Posts: 172
growlley wrote:
and so now public discussion of ;plonking; becoms an offense. Why not ust admit it dissent will not be tolerated?


He was talking about the post where Neph was gloating that people are talking, yet they are all blocked so he doesn't have to see what they say. Nothing in relation to complaining about the game.


May 15th, 2017, 11:35 am
Profile
Consul
User avatar

Joined: June 20th, 2012, 8:00 pm
Posts: 2622
Location: Sønderholm, Denmark
Yes, it was rudeness to other users that wasn't being tolerated. And rightly so.

_________________
I'm Super Dungeon Excite!
Super Dungeon Explore Compendium


May 15th, 2017, 12:18 pm
Profile WWW
Minion
User avatar

Joined: December 11th, 2015, 1:39 am
Posts: 111
I admit that I am growing disillusioned. I've been telling my wife for a year and a half that Legends was going to be our next obsession, that we were going to be able to play an RPG without having to do a bunch of math or maintain character sheets. This character creation system is starting to look painfully anemic, though, and the suggestion that we can 'use any mini we want' isn't helping. I could use a 40K space marine for a kobold and a stack of dimes for Roxor, and I can do that right now, and I don't need permission from anyone at all.

I want to be excited. I want to maintain my enthusiasm. But man, that last update sounded a lot like, 'wow, a lot of you want races to mean something... and that's just too bad.'

The thing that is really chapping my !SODA! right now is that I could take Super Dungeon Explore exactly how it is now and create the game system I want to play. I can see so clearly how SDE could, with some new simple rules, be turned into a light RPG-style experience. Why it's becoming such a three-ring circus, I can't tell.


May 15th, 2017, 12:53 pm
Profile
Minion
User avatar

Joined: February 11th, 2015, 4:47 pm
Posts: 200
InfinityMax wrote:
I admit that I am growing disillusioned. I've been telling my wife for a year and a half that Legends was going to be our next obsession, that we were going to be able to play an RPG without having to do a bunch of math or maintain character sheets. This character creation system is starting to look painfully anemic, though, and the suggestion that we can 'use any mini we want' isn't helping. I could use a 40K space marine for a kobold and a stack of dimes for Roxor, and I can do that right now, and I don't need permission from anyone at all.

I want to be excited. I want to maintain my enthusiasm. But man, that last update sounded a lot like, 'wow, a lot of you want races to mean something... and that's just too bad.'

The thing that is really chapping my !SODA! right now is that I could take Super Dungeon Explore exactly how it is now and create the game system I want to play. I can see so clearly how SDE could, with some new simple rules, be turned into a light RPG-style experience. Why it's becoming such a three-ring circus, I can't tell.


I'm incluned to agree.

If I really wanted to play an RPG system, why wouldn't I just play DnD? It comes in SO many flavors from 1.0- Pathfinder, and they're all Kix: Kid tested, mother approved. So why would Legends stand out any? Without the Explore components, it's just just an untested system that is potentially MORE expensive than playing a BETTER system such as DnD

What I was expecting of Legends was "Chibi Hero Quest" or "Chibi Descent". Any of those styles of game where it's basically SDE with a story, which, honestly, I could do myself in like, what? A week?

If y'all trying to cut back on components cost (which is what it sounds like witht he re-sizing of the boss spawn cards, removal of Explore Cards and the like) I wish y'all'd just say so, but i can't help but feel there's a little "Decepticon" going on.


May 15th, 2017, 2:46 pm
Profile
Minion
User avatar

Joined: October 30th, 2015, 2:03 pm
Posts: 224
Not sure there was any evil decepticon intent.

But seems like there was a gaping lack of prep or planning, like they went into the campaign with no work on arcade or classic or legends.


May 15th, 2017, 2:57 pm
Profile
Minion
User avatar

Joined: August 20th, 2016, 8:46 pm
Posts: 69
insider714 wrote:
I'm incluned to agree.

If I really wanted to play an RPG system, why wouldn't I just play DnD? It comes in SO many flavors from 1.0- Pathfinder, and they're all Kix: Kid tested, mother approved. So why would Legends stand out any? Without the Explore components, it's just just an untested system that is potentially MORE expensive than playing a BETTER system such as DnD

What I was expecting of Legends was "Chibi Hero Quest" or "Chibi Descent". Any of those styles of game where it's basically SDE with a story, which, honestly, I could do myself in like, what? A week?

If y'all trying to cut back on components cost (which is what it sounds like witht he re-sizing of the boss spawn cards, removal of Explore Cards and the like) I wish y'all'd just say so, but i can't help but feel there's a little "Decepticon" going on.


I stated something like this quite awhile back when they first released the whole legends are getting classes thing. If we wanted it complexes then we would play something already approved, pathfinder has tons and tons of great content in it. I've already stated that I would love to have SDE with FFCC type gameplay and WoW type lore.

I'm not here to kick them down though, I just want to ask if they would be including the gender swap heroes + alt sculpt of Starfire with the wave 1 or is that going to be wave 2? Would be nice to get all of that in wave 1.

...it'll be nice to get wave 1 all together....:)


May 15th, 2017, 3:04 pm
Profile
Minion
User avatar

Joined: February 11th, 2015, 4:47 pm
Posts: 200
Chozo Tull wrote:
Not sure there was any evil decepticon intent.

But seems like there was a gaping lack of prep or planning, like they went into the campaign with no work on arcade or classic or legends.


I was trying to use "Decepticn" as a way of saying "More than mets the eye" 'cause transformers. Clearly it went over heads... my bad... XD

"Do you like using clever idions, Barry?" "Only when people actually understand them, other Barry." XD


May 15th, 2017, 3:04 pm
Profile
Minion
User avatar

Joined: April 9th, 2016, 8:11 am
Posts: 85
Chozo Tull wrote:
Not sure there was any evil decepticon intent.

But seems like there was a gaping lack of prep or planning, like they went into the campaign with no work on arcade or classic or legends.


... And I'm really wondering what they really had done for Legends beginning of 2017.... Time for ND to show more. Lore would be good if they don't have a game system. Maybe ND wanted to keep it for the release, understandably, but now, they're so late....


May 15th, 2017, 3:06 pm
Profile
Minion
User avatar

Joined: January 19th, 2013, 10:34 pm
Posts: 187
InfinityMax wrote:
I could use a 40K space marine for a kobold and a stack of dimes for Roxor, and I can do that right now, and I don't need permission from anyone at all.


Being free to use any figure is not a drawback or poor design. What you are talking about is if you sat down to play DnD and your friend put down a space marine and said "This is my barbarian". Is DnD at fault there? ND is just saying that the character creation rules will not be limited to the "classes" they have made figures for.


May 15th, 2017, 3:19 pm
Profile
Minion
User avatar

Joined: December 11th, 2015, 1:39 am
Posts: 111
insider714 wrote:
If I really wanted to play an RPG system, why wouldn't I just play DnD? It comes in SO many flavors from 1.0- Pathfinder, and they're all Kix: Kid tested, mother approved. So why would Legends stand out any? Without the Explore components, it's just just an untested system that is potentially MORE expensive than playing a BETTER system such as DnD

What I was expecting of Legends was "Chibi Hero Quest" or "Chibi Descent". Any of those styles of game where it's basically SDE with a story, which, honestly, I could do myself in like, what? A week?

Yes, that's sort of what I was saying, but I will clarify that I do want a DnD-type experience. I just want it to be way, way lighter, and focus more on the tactical part of a dungeon crawl. RPGs have evolved to the point where we don't even always play them at a table - we sit around the living room with our character sheets and pencils and all the fighting is abstracted. That's fun as hell, but that's not what I want this to do. I want this to remind me of playing old Red Box Basic DnD, with maps that are to-scale with our minis. But every iteration of DnD that I have ever played required accounting and rules references and charts and a lot of other complications that slow it way down.

SDE has the massive benefit of being quick, exciting and easy to track. You can set up the dungeon, populate it with monsters, and blast through epic battles with terrifying bad guys and hordes of evil minions. You can't do that in DnD, because tooling through a whole dungeon in DnD will take most of your day and part of tomorrow. A fight between three heroes and six kobolds in SDE is a couple minutes; in DnD, that's half an hour, easy.

I would say that comparisons to Descent and HeroQuest are on point. Those are pretty much what I have in mind - but neither of those is what I am hoping Legends will be. I hope Legends has more interesting character creation, better advancement, and more flexible scenario creation. It seems like that's what it's on track to be, but it also seems like the creators are having some trouble making it work.

To clarify, I don't want Chibi HeroQuest or Chibi Descent because I could just play HeroQuest or Descent. I want Legends to deliver something deeper and more satisfying - but if my characters have maxed out after five adventures, that's not especially likely.


May 15th, 2017, 3:39 pm
Profile
Minion
User avatar

Joined: December 11th, 2015, 1:39 am
Posts: 111
homedrone wrote:
InfinityMax wrote:
I could use a 40K space marine for a kobold and a stack of dimes for Roxor, and I can do that right now, and I don't need permission from anyone at all.


Being free to use any figure is not a drawback or poor design. What you are talking about is if you sat down to play DnD and your friend put down a space marine and said "This is my barbarian". Is DnD at fault there? ND is just saying that the character creation rules will not be limited to the "classes" they have made figures for.


I didn't say it was poor design. It's just not a selling point.

Now, if the comments we've been receiving had been more like 'you can create any character you want, even characters who don't fit the archetypes our existing miniatures represent,' that would be useful. But telling me that I can use any mini I want is like giving me permission to pick my radio station in the car. I don't need permission for that.


May 15th, 2017, 3:43 pm
Profile
Employee
User avatar

Joined: August 22nd, 2016, 6:01 pm
Posts: 571
insider714 wrote:
If y'all trying to cut back on components cost (which is what it sounds like witht he re-sizing of the boss spawn cards, removal of Explore Cards and the like) I wish y'all'd just say so, but i can't help but feel there's a little "Decepticon" going on.


Cutting back on components costs is not the motivation. Pretty much every decision I have been involved in with Ninja Division has been based on what would make a better game and what would be appreciated by our audience.

Looking purely at component costs:

We did standardize the size of our cards. But ditching the smaller cards allows for more text. Not just rules, but flavor text as well. More content all around and the customers who wish to sleeve their cards will be able to do so more easily.

Explore cards were cut because of me. I felt that they did not fit into the system we were building. They were, more often than not, forgotten by players and because the effects ranged from good to bad, the party never drew them voluntarily. You may disagree. That's fine. But component costs simply didn't factor in.

Then look at what we added:

A mighty monster chart, significantly bigger than just adding a card.

A backpack chart for player convenience.

Relic Items.

Two entire decks to Arcade (challenge and plot).

And Pet Parade was split off into a new product that requires us to print its own rulebook, box, etc.


Also, I know I probably just shouldn't engage here because now the criticism will swing the opposite direction. We'll go from, "you're cutting corners to save on cost" to, "they're spending so much time adding things we'll never get our game!" But, oh well. I believe in engaging with the community and that comes with a certain amount of flak.

Anyway, being frustrated with the kickstarter being late is perfectly understandable. I make no excuses on that front and will continue working as hard as I can to get it to you as quickly as possible with the highest quality possible. I'm relatively new so I can't speak to anything that happened before I came on, but I can tell you that every conversation I've had here has focused on bringing you guys the best quality product we can make. Not around cutting corners on costs.

_________________
The Demogorgon tires of your silly human bickering!

Email: justin.gibbs@ninjadivision.com


May 15th, 2017, 3:51 pm
Profile
Minion

Joined: June 24th, 2015, 6:13 pm
Posts: 65
Justin, I do not know if you have worked on legends or not but if you have are there any rpgs you have looked at or taken inspiration from? Off shoot question do you play rpgs outside of work and if so which games do you enjoy?

Just trying to get inside the mindset for legends.


May 15th, 2017, 4:14 pm
Profile
Employee
User avatar

Joined: August 22nd, 2016, 6:01 pm
Posts: 571
Lattd wrote:
Justin, I do not know if you have worked on legends or not but if you have are there any rpgs you have looked at or taken inspiration from? Off shoot question do you play rpgs outside of work and if so which games do you enjoy?

Just trying to get inside the mindset for legends.


Legends is all Deke.

Well, not all. I will be involved of course as I work here. Playtesting. Giving advice. Editing. Etc. But it's his baby. And, I mean, Deke (with help from the rest of the company, of course) is responsible for SDE existing at all. And I am very excited by the direction he is taking in general. I know people have expressed concerns but, once we get this into community testing, hopefully either people will get a better understanding of the system, or we'll adjust things based on feedback.

Since Legends isn't mine I tend to avoid commenting on it.

But if you still want to know my roleplaying experience, I'm a Deadlands sort of guy. I like a system that lets me blow off someone's arm instead of just assigning generic damage points.

_________________
The Demogorgon tires of your silly human bickering!

Email: justin.gibbs@ninjadivision.com


May 15th, 2017, 4:24 pm
Profile
Minion
User avatar

Joined: February 11th, 2015, 4:47 pm
Posts: 200
Where as I can respect the involvement, here's what I'm seeing just from that response:

ND_Justin wrote:
insider714 wrote:
If y'all trying to cut back on components cost (which is what it sounds like witht he re-sizing of the boss spawn cards, removal of Explore Cards and the like) I wish y'all'd just say so, but i can't help but feel there's a little "Decepticon" going on.


Cutting back on components costs is not the motivation. Pretty much every decision I have been involved in with Ninja Division has been based on what would make a better game and what would be appreciated by our audience.

Looking purely at component costs:

ND_Justin wrote:
We did standardize the size of our cards. But ditching the smaller cards allows for more text. Not just rules, but flavor text as well. More content all around and the customers who wish to sleeve their cards will be able to do so more easily.


Explore cards were cut because of me. I felt that they did not fit into the system we were building. They were, more often than not, forgotten by players and because the effects ranged from good to bad, the party never drew them voluntarily. You may disagree. That's fine. But component costs simply didn't factor in.


Where as I'm somewhat inclined to agree about people forgetting them, It's a tedious game. Period.

Example: I recently made and playtested some custom cards for NAS crossover (with apparently great result, mind you, but I won't post 'em until they are done); I made up very little, but based on some new ability releases, I had more to work with to retain the "feel" of the clans I had wished to represent in SDE.

That said, with so many abilities, so many abilities, so many different ways to play, etc, from a streamlining perspective, it just ain't gonna happen. You need an encyclopedia of abilities just to keep track to make things new and fresh. Hell, the stats vs amount of new abilities on people alone combined with the cumbersome rules of critical hits make it far from streamined, so you have to ask yourselves: The things you removed: Basic actions, explore cards, did you REALLY streamline the game? You replaced options with... more reading.

A) If it was such an issue, do a Kickstarter exclusive release of the explore cards for people who wanted 'em. People who don't want 'em can sell 'em, people who do, hey, they there but only in a limited time run

B) The game is far from simple, and with the gameplay design as it stands, it'll always be crunchy. Might as well make it a good toolbox so EVERYONE can have fun. Hell, you HAVE the templates for the Roxor Explore cards, and Von Drakk comes with them. hell, there's been turne we've forgotten to draw Loot cards there's so much to keep track of. Consistency is key.

C) You can't honestly tell me making a new logo was a well- spent time endeavor. Just seemed a little hubris-y to me when you could've just spent more time working on the games at hand.

D) Loot- o- meter, while not your system, was a solid system that you could've just made official. It cut down on cumbersome components (Another chart, another thing to lose track of/ forget) and created a standard timer system (loot = time, 9/10 x you'll remember to draw your loot and the balance is kept via you can't just farm until you get what you want).

ND_Justin wrote:
Then look at what we added:

A mighty monster chart, significantly bigger than just adding a card.

A backpack chart for player convenience.

Relic Items.

Two entire decks to Arcade (challenge and plot).

And Pet Parade was split off into a new product that requires us to print its own rulebook, box, etc.


Monster chart: I mean, did you HAVE to? Was the chart previously provided not fine?

Backpack chart: Again, was it necessary? It's a nice gesture, but was it needed?

Relic items: ok, see, THERE was an idea that you should've made for Legends

Goal of a legends campaign: Retrieve relic item, advance plot, if good guys win, this, if bad guys win, that, etc, etc.

Want to know how Amethyst and Citrine dice factor int? Relic items maybe?

Playing a 5-6 player hero game where they could steamroll an older boss in a second? Relic them up to bulk them up?
I mean, these are no brainers. Relics should've been Legends content use to bulk up the bosses to keep up with Hero growth in Legends. All this stuff about DnD style character growth is cumbersome and silly.

Not to be accusative, but it sounds like you guys wanna hop on the RPG train that 5.e has started with the "super loose" ruleset, which, again, why wouldn't I just play 5.e?


ND_Justin wrote:
Also, I know I probably just shouldn't engage here because now the criticism will swing the opposite direction. We'll go from, "you're cutting corners to save on cost" to, "they're spending so much time adding things we'll never get our game!" But, oh well. I believe in engaging with the community and that comes with a certain amount of flak.

Anyway, being frustrated with the kickstarter being late is perfectly understandable. I make no excuses on that front and will continue working as hard as I can to get it to you as quickly as possible with the highest quality possible. I'm relatively new so I can't speak to anything that happened before I came on, but I can tell you that every conversation I've had here has focused on bringing you guys the best quality product we can make. Not around cutting corners on costs.


Look, I'm not going to sit here and accuse you guys all day of being shady, yadda yadda. Hell, I can respect you guys trying to build a brand for the long- haul, 'cause lets face it: Board- gaming is a very niche thing that will probably only last a few more years of this much kickstarter- level popularity, and your main competitor (CMON) along with alot of sizable game behemoths have their roots in the ground and you guys are small, I get all of that.

I really don't even care about the time (except my whole i'm moving in august thing, but i'll deal with that bridge when i get to it).

What I really want is for you guys to take a good hard look at what you guys are building, what you want out of it, and what the players want out of it before you guys start a kickstarter (not even blaming you justin, You came in at the tail end of all this). I say this because many of us came in expecting real work done on an engaging premise with elements we already had collected, and now, a good deal of us feel baited, and that HAS and WILL affect(ed) your gaming compiny reputation, i mean just look at Warforged and the ever noted "Bunnies vs Zombies".

We like this franchise, the world is in turmoil and to some of us, it's one of the few things we look forward to.

Also show us the crown guard this week. It has some templates of it in Arena, it would be nice to see them.


May 15th, 2017, 5:05 pm
Profile
Consul
User avatar

Joined: June 20th, 2012, 8:00 pm
Posts: 2622
Location: Sønderholm, Denmark
ND_Justin wrote:
I know people have expressed concerns but, once we get this into community testing, hopefully either people will get a better understanding of the system, or we'll adjust things based on feedback.

This is what I'm hoping as well. We are only seeing fragmented snippets of rules, which makes it impossible to share the vision.
Any guess-timates on when we'll get some rules in our hands?

homedrone wrote:
InfinityMax wrote:
I could use a 40K space marine for a kobold and a stack of dimes for Roxor, and I can do that right now, and I don't need permission from anyone at all.


Being free to use any figure is not a drawback or poor design. What you are talking about is if you sat down to play DnD and your friend put down a space marine and said "This is my barbarian". Is DnD at fault there? ND is just saying that the character creation rules will not be limited to the "classes" they have made figures for.

It's absolutely not bad design. I just think it's an odd thing to emphasize as a "feature"... Like, duuh of course we can use what we want for models.

_________________
I'm Super Dungeon Excite!
Super Dungeon Explore Compendium


May 15th, 2017, 6:35 pm
Profile WWW
Employee
User avatar

Joined: August 22nd, 2016, 6:01 pm
Posts: 571
Goblin-King wrote:
ND_Justin wrote:
I know people have expressed concerns but, once we get this into community testing, hopefully either people will get a better understanding of the system, or we'll adjust things based on feedback.

This is what I'm hoping as well. We are only seeing fragmented snippets of rules, which makes it impossible to share the vision.
Any guess-timates on when we'll get some rules in our hands?

homedrone wrote:
InfinityMax wrote:
I could use a 40K space marine for a kobold and a stack of dimes for Roxor, and I can do that right now, and I don't need permission from anyone at all.


Being free to use any figure is not a drawback or poor design. What you are talking about is if you sat down to play DnD and your friend put down a space marine and said "This is my barbarian". Is DnD at fault there? ND is just saying that the character creation rules will not be limited to the "classes" they have made figures for.

It's absolutely not bad design. I just think it's an odd thing to emphasize as a "feature"... Like, duuh of course we can use what we want for models.


I am not in a position to make guesses about timelines. Sorry.

And, please nobody read more into this than is there: it's simply not my place to say.

_________________
The Demogorgon tires of your silly human bickering!

Email: justin.gibbs@ninjadivision.com


May 15th, 2017, 6:43 pm
Profile
Minion
User avatar

Joined: February 11th, 2015, 4:47 pm
Posts: 200
Legends backers: :lol:

Image


May 15th, 2017, 7:07 pm
Profile
Minion
User avatar

Joined: January 19th, 2013, 10:34 pm
Posts: 187
Goblin-King wrote:
It's absolutely not bad design. I just think it's an odd thing to emphasize as a "feature"... Like, duuh of course we can use what we want for models.


Maybe they just highlighted it to show how they are trying to make a system that is not limited to the "classes" we have with the heroes so far. Like: "We want our system to be pretty open.. you should be able to make custom models and the rules will support that".


May 15th, 2017, 8:06 pm
Profile
Minion
User avatar

Joined: December 11th, 2015, 1:39 am
Posts: 111
insider714, you seem to just be trying to get people riled up. God knows that horrible GIF is about to send me into an epileptic coma. You complain about cutting costs and then, when given examples of extra stuff we're getting, you ask if it's necessary - as if that would be a good place to cut costs. So which is it? Are you accusing Ninja Division of being cheap or of being wasteful? It really seems to me like you should pick one or the other.


May 15th, 2017, 9:10 pm
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic   [ 2251 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 90, 91, 92, 93, 94, 95, 96 ... 113  Next

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: growlley and 4 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
Designed by STSoftware.