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 "Lootimeter Mode" Now in ARCADE MODE (pg 31) 
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Mini-Boss
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I have started using some of the mechanics brought up in the playtests too. I really like the 8bit monster activations if a spawner or miniboss is on the tile. The Loot gain might need tweaked a bit though. I was thinking that for every 2 wounds of 8 bit monsters killed you get 1 Loot card. So killing 2 Billmen or 1 Ghostfire Warrior would give you 1 Loot. This gives each single point an average of 6 Loot, and double spawners 9. 3 just seems like too many, and in my games I sometimes fall just 1 short so I've wasted my actions. I've tried a game of Lootimeter with these rules and it worked out well.


April 29th, 2016, 12:41 am
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This was our first play through with the Lootimeter rules, and I felt like there was a problem and I can't quite figure out if we did something wrong, or if it was RNG from monster damage that made the game feel "off" to us. Hopefully someone can point us in the right direction / better insight. We're relatively new to SDE, having played probably between 8 and 10 games total.

RULES USED:
-Lootimeter Rule set
-Ceetee's Princess Coins (one coin per hero, Consul wins if heroes need to use a Princess coin and cannot)
-Explore cards used
-Creeps spawned if Consul rolled a successful attack with a potion rolled
-All Spawn points had 3 health, despite what was printed on the cards
-Spawning and monster movement could only happen on tiles that have heroes present or adjacent
-no monster crystal affinity
-the only board effects which I use are things which impede movement or block line of sight.
-NO Popping Potions
-NO Wound shunting

Dungeon Boss - Starfire
Mini-Boss - Rex
Spawn points - 2x Kobold Warrens, 1x Egg Clutch, 1x Bramble Knight
Creeps - Squirrels
Heroes - Glimmerdusk Ranger, Paladin, Embermage, Fae Alchemist

--

I didn't think to take pictures of the beginning of the game, but it's a fairly easily explanation. The top left board had the Bramble Knight spawner, which was taken care off in two activations by the Heroes. This allowed another 4 skulls spawns from the Bramble Knight.

The top right tile had the Egg Clutch, and was fully populated by the 6 drakes.

Image

Image

This is where we are wondering if something (maybe?) went wrong.

The mini-boss was spawned almost immediately upon entering the 2nd tile. There were 10 kills from the heroes on monsters - 6 Billmen, 3 Frog Knights, and a Grobbit. As the Consul, I managed to do 6 damage to the heroes on the first tile. With the Lootimeter rules, this spawned the mini boss

By the time the heroes had cleared the spawn point (two hero activations again), and most of the drakes, I as the consul had done enough damage to actually spawn the dungeon boss. We felt this was too early, so we made the call to use Trent as a secondary mini-boss, and save Starfire for when the loot deck was completely exhausted.

Needless to say, Rex knocked the party back into the first room to where Trent had spawned behind a Paladin.

We never got to spawn Starfire. After killing Trent, Rex and a left over drake finished off the Paladin at the top of tile 1. The heroes no longer had a princess coin to spend to resurrect, and we decided to end the game.

Tile 3 and Tile 4, where the Kobold Warrens were located, we never even activated.

Did something go wrong? If so, where did we go wrong? Were the heroes way too slow with their room clearing / had a higher than usual amount of misses? It felt really bad that after a good amount of time, I had 14 models I never even used for the entire night.

Every turn on Tile 2 in the top right was spent activating Rex's free Super, and then spending 4 skulls to use him again. Or, when Trent was out, using a Super for him, and 4 skulls for Rex.

I'm sure I left out some critical details that I can't think of at this moment, but hopefully someone can point us in the right direction!

Thanks!


May 1st, 2016, 1:29 am
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Minion
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I've been using the Lootimeter deck in Arcade to speed things up and add challenge.

Some friends and I agreed that it can be a little hard because cards are discarted from wounds inflicted to Heroes.
It felt punishing. It gives the same feeling than giving the Consul an early Mini-Boss spawning for killing a Hero in Beta.
I know that Lootimeter reflects perfectly the way it was played in Classic 1.0 but I've also read that 1.0 was too difficult.

I've tried something slightly different with the deck. It's still a timer, so I've called it Lootitimer to differenciate it from Lootimeter.
Make 2 piles (1 for Mini-Boss and 1 for Boss) with 3 Loot cards per Hero in each, ie. in a 3 Hero game, have 2 piles of 9 Loot cards.

Don't discard cards for wounds and apply the Loot rewards chart from Beta 1.2:
For every three 8Bit minion monsters destroyed: Draw 1 loot card.
For each 8Bit elite monster destroyed: Draw 1 loot card.
For each 16Bit elite monster destroyed: Draw 2 loot cards.
For each spawning point destroyed: Draw 2 loot cards.
The party may earn a maximum of four loot cards per turn.

It may seem too much cards at first glance but it takes account of doubled or useless Loot cards. It never occured in my games that all Heros were equipped with 3 Loot when the Mini-Boss spawned.
It feels more like the party is getting ready for a tough battle, but they can't just farm like in FK rules.

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May 2nd, 2016, 10:46 am
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@sdkaylor -

Happy to hear that people are still playing (and enjoying) the Lootimeter Mode! From what I read from your report, everything seemed to sound alright. But there did seem to be an awful lot of dead monsters on the first tile! I do believe, as you surmised, that with more experience with this mode of play, the heroes will realize that moving forward and killing spawn points is super important!

I have also dabbled with the idea in 4 hero games, to have two mini-bosses spawn at the same time. I have found that this is a good balancer for the extra hero.

I would try it again, but remind the heroes that they need to move forward more quickly! My personal experience as the consul tends to be that I feel like I am going to get steamrolled by the heroes but somewhere on the second tile I get a hold and things start to turn around. It makes for a very exciting game!

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May 2nd, 2016, 7:38 pm
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Arckelian wrote:
I've been using the Lootimeter deck in Arcade to speed things up and add challenge.

Some friends and I agreed that it can be a little hard because cards are discarted from wounds inflicted to Heroes.
It felt punishing. It gives the same feeling than giving the Consul an early Mini-Boss spawning for killing a Hero in Beta.
I know that Lootimeter reflects perfectly the way it was played in Classic 1.0 but I've also read that 1.0 was too difficult.


1.0 was really tough, but that was because every wound caused was moving the meter forward, in this version it is wounds on the heroes and hero kills on the monsters. ther eis a difference (where some monsters have more than wound).

There are easier ways to adjust the difficulty level than what you are suggesting. There are many ideas in the back section of the document, as well as just adjusting the number of cards that are in the Lootimeter. Part of the beauty of the system is it's simplicity. I would hate to see it becoming over complicated.

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Want to enjoy a game of Super Dungeon Exlore in half the time that Forgotten King offers? Try Lootimeter Mode!
Sodapop Lootimeter Discussion thread
BGG Lootimeter discusson thread


May 2nd, 2016, 7:41 pm
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Arckelian wrote:
I've been using the Lootimeter deck in Arcade to speed things up and add challenge.

Some friends and I agreed that it can be a little hard because cards are discarted from wounds inflicted to Heroes.
It felt punishing. It gives the same feeling than giving the Consul an early Mini-Boss spawning for killing a Hero in Beta.
I know that Lootimeter reflects perfectly the way it was played in Classic 1.0 but I've also read that 1.0 was too difficult.

You've got a misconception here.

The game isn't won or lost BEFORE the Boss spawns; Lootimeter really only begins once the Boss is spawned. The opening part of the game, destroying spawn points and going through the Lootimeter deck, is about which side gets to spawn the Boss on their terms. The Consul wants spawn points and has to play a long game defending them - but also has to know when a tile is lost; the Heroes want them all gone - but has to balance that with leaving too many minions/elites alive for the Boss to shunt wounds onto and getting Loot.

That means the tactics change a lot from Forgotten King. The Heroes are trying to rip through the Dungeon, destroying spawners as fast as they can, while the Consul is trying to delay them as much as possible.


Spazzfist wrote:
eternaldream wrote:
Man, the more I see the discussion in the playtest forum, the more I keep coming back to this idea. I think it really is a great idea. The Wrath mechanic sounds good, but I think it is too much to remember. You're going to be going though Loot anyway, so there is less to keep track of. I hope SPM would consider this as a mechanic.


I know, me too! They have taken the dual activation and the starting Princess Coins from Lootimeter Mode, which are two of the biggest things, the only thing that they have not adopted is the countdown timer!

I am finding it hard to motivate myself to playtest the new rules (and I do mean "myself", because my group does not want to play with those rules anymore) because, to my mind, it is still so obviously flawed. Lootimeter has been so heavily playtested and has proven time and time again that it works. It is clean, it is simple, and it works.
Oh, and don't forget they don't have the "Look out, sir - AAUUGH!" rule; without that, dual Hero activation often means a quickly dead Boss. Hell, I lost Trent in ONE ROUND last night in a playtest game.

That said, I... don't hate the new rules. That does not mean I like them, Lootimeter is still better, but I think that there are a couple of things to consider:

1) Integration into Legends. The 'new rules' about keeping Loot/Treasure in the Backpack is probably meant to go somehow with the RPG rules about melting down Loot to upgrade your character's stats. Frankly, I have no idea how to match that kind of mechanic in Lootimeter unless we institute the same cap on Hero-obtained Loot, and that kinda puts a crimp in the whole balance of Lootimeter play.

2) That these are still beta, and still OPEN beta, rules. That means we can test, check, suggest, repeat - and make sure we're not playing the game wrong, because last night was messed up thanks to a tactic that would have worked okay in Lootimeter, but not so much in Beta 2.2.

3) There are more than a few good notions in the Beta rules too. I really like how Powerup includes spawning as well, that simplifies a step and I'm probably gonna try to get that included in Lootimeter; the notion of spending a Princess Coin and picking a different Hero is just... so very flavorful; running only using 1 AP to move 3 squares is a lot more versatile than sprinting; and the idea of how aggro works is highly interesting if not entirely worked right yet.

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Lootimeter Mode - A Fast, Fun, Fair Mode for Consul versus Heroes!
SDE Hero Tiers: Ranking Heroes in Classic Mode
SDE Boss Tiers: Ranking Bosses/Minibosses in Classic Mode
SDE Spawner Tiers: Ranking Spawn Points in Classic Mode


May 2nd, 2016, 9:58 pm
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iamfanboy wrote:
3) There are more than a few good notions in the Beta rules too. I really like how Powerup includes spawning as well, that simplifies a step and I'm probably gonna try to get that included in Lootimeter; the notion of spending a Princess Coin and picking a different Hero is just... so very flavorful; running only using 1 AP to move 3 squares is a lot more versatile than sprinting; and the idea of how aggro works is highly interesting if not entirely worked right yet.


I have to say, I like these rules too. Definitely things I would include in future games of Lootimeter.

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May 2nd, 2016, 10:29 pm
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Spazzfist wrote:
1.0 was really tough, but that was because every wound caused was moving the meter forward, in this version it is wounds on the heroes and hero kills on the monsters. ther eis a difference (where some monsters have more than wound).

There are easier ways to adjust the difficulty level than what you are suggesting. There are many ideas in the back section of the document, as well as just adjusting the number of cards that are in the Lootimeter. Part of the beauty of the system is it's simplicity. I would hate to see it becoming over complicated.
iamfanboy wrote:
You've got a misconception here.

The game isn't won or lost BEFORE the Boss spawns; Lootimeter really only begins once the Boss is spawned. The opening part of the game, destroying spawn points and going through the Lootimeter deck, is about which side gets to spawn the Boss on their terms. The Consul wants spawn points and has to play a long game defending them - but also has to know when a tile is lost; the Heroes want them all gone - but has to balance that with leaving too many minions/elites alive for the Boss to shunt wounds onto and getting Loot.

That means the tactics change a lot from Forgotten King. The Heroes are trying to rip through the Dungeon, destroying spawners as fast as they can, while the Consul is trying to delay them as much as possible.

Thank both of you for these explanations. It changed my perspective on Lootimeter and will try it again.

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May 3rd, 2016, 7:20 am
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Arckelian wrote:
Spazzfist wrote:
1.0 was really tough, but that was because every wound caused was moving the meter forward, in this version it is wounds on the heroes and hero kills on the monsters. ther eis a difference (where some monsters have more than wound).

There are easier ways to adjust the difficulty level than what you are suggesting. There are many ideas in the back section of the document, as well as just adjusting the number of cards that are in the Lootimeter. Part of the beauty of the system is it's simplicity. I would hate to see it becoming over complicated.
iamfanboy wrote:
You've got a misconception here.

The game isn't won or lost BEFORE the Boss spawns; Lootimeter really only begins once the Boss is spawned. The opening part of the game, destroying spawn points and going through the Lootimeter deck, is about which side gets to spawn the Boss on their terms. The Consul wants spawn points and has to play a long game defending them - but also has to know when a tile is lost; the Heroes want them all gone - but has to balance that with leaving too many minions/elites alive for the Boss to shunt wounds onto and getting Loot.

That means the tactics change a lot from Forgotten King. The Heroes are trying to rip through the Dungeon, destroying spawners as fast as they can, while the Consul is trying to delay them as much as possible.

Thank both of you for these explanations. It changed my perspective on Lootimeter and will try it again.

Def try playing it with the Look Out Sir-Auuug rule. Keeping a few Minions and Elites around as meatshields for the boss adds an extra tactical edge for the boss fight.


May 5th, 2016, 3:49 am
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!SODA!, Lootimeter is good.

I just needed to say that after wading through a solo Beta game where the Heroes did some serious shenanigans to avoid gaining Wrath - they Slowed a single Swampie and danced just out of its reach to keep the Consul from getting "No triggered Minions" Wrath, then sent the Celestial Herald at the final Spawn Point and used Hookshot + Shadow Crown to avoid triggering the Pumpkin Patch monsters AND with gaining a single Wrath Point (for having no stuff to spawn) before it was destroyed and Beatrix spawned. 15 minutes of turns where the Consul could do NOTHING.


So onto better things. Here's my proposal for a rules change/addition to Lootimeter regarding the merging of the Spawn Phase with the Powerup Phase.

Quote:
POWERUP PHASE
Power-Up takes place at the end of the Hero turn. During it, the Heroes decide how to equip their newly-gotten goods, while the Consul plots how his monsters will win the next turn.

~Equip and Mighty Monsters remains the same

SPAWNING
The Consul places 4 Skulls of monsters from the Spawn Pool next to their Spawn Point. A single Creep may be placed next to any Spawn Point as well.

If the appropriate Lootimeter count has been reached, the Consul places the Mini-Boss or Boss within 4 squares of a doorway not connected to a tile. If a Boss is placed, the Boss Fight begins, and all card effects are resolved.


Quote:
Princess Coins can be used in one of three ways:
➥To remove all Wound and Status Effect tokens from and place a Potion token on a Hero’s card
➥To resurrect a fallen Hero with full Hearts either next to the Heroes’ Start Marker or on the Hero’s Skull Token.
➥To add a different Hero next to the Start Marker. The number of Heroes in play may never exceed the number started with.


Aaand putting the list of actions into the document and replacing the Sprint option old with the new one of 1 AP=3 squares.


Any thoughts? If no negative ones I'll change the document within a day or three.

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Lootimeter Mode - A Fast, Fun, Fair Mode for Consul versus Heroes!
SDE Hero Tiers: Ranking Heroes in Classic Mode
SDE Boss Tiers: Ranking Bosses/Minibosses in Classic Mode
SDE Spawner Tiers: Ranking Spawn Points in Classic Mode


May 7th, 2016, 10:38 am
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iamfanboy wrote:
!SODA!, Lootimeter is good.


I agree, I cannot get my group to play the Beta rules anymore. They said that if we play, then will only play Lootimeter.

Quote:
POWERUP PHASE
Power-Up takes place at the end of the Hero turn. During it, the Heroes decide how to equip their newly-gotten goods, while the Consul plots how his monsters will win the next turn.

~Equip and Mighty Monsters remains the same


This sounds good to me!


Quote:
SPAWNING
The Consul places 4 Skulls of monsters from the Spawn Pool next to their Spawn Point. A single Creep may be placed next to any Spawn Point as well.


Yup.

Quote:
If the appropriate Lootimeter count has been reached, the Consul places the Mini-Boss or Boss within 4 squares of a doorway not connected to a tile. If a Boss is placed, the Boss Fight begins, and all card effects are resolved.


Now, would there be any restrictions on how close the Mini-Boss can be spawned? (i.e. minimum number of squares away from the heroes?)


Quote:
Princess Coins can be used in one of three ways:
➥To remove all Wound and Status Effect tokens from and place a Potion token on a Hero’s card
➥To resurrect a fallen Hero with full Hearts either next to the Heroes’ Start Marker or on the Hero’s Skull Token.
➥To add a different Hero next to the Start Marker. The number of Heroes in play may never exceed the number started with.


Love these ideas. Very thematic.

Quote:
Aaand putting the list of actions into the document and replacing the Sprint option old with the new one of 1 AP=3 squares.


This is one rule that SPM came up with that I really do like.

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May 8th, 2016, 4:49 am
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Although someone mentioned in the other forum about how it used to be 3 AP = 6 Movement, whereas it's now 3 AP = 9 movement, so changing it to Dashing for 1 AP gives 2 Movement might be a better solution.

I almost want to suggest an equivalent Action that lets you sacrifice all your Movement for +1 AP - considering the power of AP, it'd be a good thing to have in the back pocket, but the problem is that the Consul would have access to it as well... makes going toe-to-toe with Grabby House stuff pretty painful.

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Lootimeter Mode - A Fast, Fun, Fair Mode for Consul versus Heroes!
SDE Hero Tiers: Ranking Heroes in Classic Mode
SDE Boss Tiers: Ranking Bosses/Minibosses in Classic Mode
SDE Spawner Tiers: Ranking Spawn Points in Classic Mode


May 8th, 2016, 9:31 am
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Has anyone tried to "clean up" the treasure system as it feels awfully lucky if you end up drawing only certain stat items and you usually draw only so few cards in 3-hero game? My cousin invented "mini-deck" system where there are 4 decks of treasure, arm/dex/wil/str and whenever you draw treasure you may choose from which one to draw - but you cannot pick second time from a same deck until one card from every deck has been drawn.

I've felt like that with my GF sometimes the deck is stacked and she draws for example only armor items and she has zero killing power and sometimes it's the complete opposite :D Any opinions or has there been some talk about this in the thread?


May 9th, 2016, 2:34 pm
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I have never minded the randomness of the deck. Sure, sometimes it can swing in the favour of either the heroes or the Consul, but for the heroes to be able to tailor pick their loot to their needs and wants at that time, seems a bit too much. I mean, the heroes are going into a dungeon, not a Walmart of magical items.

Dex Loot on aisle five! :lol:

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May 9th, 2016, 2:42 pm
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If it were up to me, I'd cull the Treasure Deck just to lower its randomness, and edit some of the cards, too - the Bejeweled Shield and Executioner's Axe both need Cursed of some kind to balance out their general awesomeness.

In my ideal world, the Treasure deck would come in at around ~30 instead of 40+, and I'd do it by taking out the Gem of Alar City, Trusty Lockpicks, Lucky Striped Pants, Ancestral Mail, and all the Shards but Amethyst. Trusty Lockpicks and Lucky Striped Pants modify Treasure pulls and nothing else, so grabbing them from a Treasure draw is a case of diminishing returns: the later you pull them, the less useful they are. The Shards are mostly uninteresting aside from forcing the Affinity mechanic. Gem of Alar City and Ancestral Mail are boring, "We just add +G" Treasure when there are other cards like Sceptre of the Archmage or Cloak of Wards that do that and have additional effects - they're chump draws, not bad but there are better. The Shining Spear, at least, is a +STR in an Emerald slot - unusual and sometimes useful if building an all-out attacker.

That leaves 16 basic Treasure cards. Keep 6 Boss Treasures to shuffle into the deck, as having a higher proportion of Boss Treasures changes the way the deck feels - but I also think that each Boss should have a single Cursed Treasure to level the playing field. To keep the current ratio of Boo Booties/Wonders, limit them to 4 each. That's a deck of 30 cards, much more consistent, and much more interesting IMHO.

But that's also outside the scope of this project, especially the parts about adding Cursed to the Axe/Shield and one Cursed Boss Treasure.


I finished changing the document, and as an aside, if the basic rules continue to be this disappointing I'm going to start again on the project to have one Lootimeter rulebook, combining the text from Lootimeter and the FK rules instead of a separate excerpt. It's a bit more... uh... legally gray to do so, but I think it's reasonable under fair use and as long as we're not trying to SELL Lootimeter.

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Lootimeter Mode - A Fast, Fun, Fair Mode for Consul versus Heroes!
SDE Hero Tiers: Ranking Heroes in Classic Mode
SDE Boss Tiers: Ranking Bosses/Minibosses in Classic Mode
SDE Spawner Tiers: Ranking Spawn Points in Classic Mode


May 19th, 2016, 7:33 pm
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I just sporadically pop into this thread, but with all the playtesting going on with the beta I wondered...
Have you guys actually tried to break your own game rules?

As in... abusing unintended boring bastard strategies, farming the last spawnpoint etc etc...

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May 22nd, 2016, 6:24 pm
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Goblin-King wrote:
I just sporadically pop into this thread, but with all the playtesting going on with the beta I wondered...
Have you guys actually tried to break your own game rules?

As in... abusing unintended boring bastard strategies, farming the last spawnpoint etc etc...


I know I have. One member of my game group is very good at finding ways to manipulate the game's rules, sometimes in a brilliant strategic way, and sometimes in ways that seem to break the game.

I had him pay one game as the Consul and he seemed to have broken the game when he was using Death Spectre and used his free Super! monster activation to move him in and attack the heroes, and then right away used his four skulls of activation to move him back into safety again. But this was my own fault for not recognizing that that was an illegal maneuver, as only the Dungeon Boss can activate twice in one turn (and only if there is a spawn point still alive).

But one of the great things about the Lootimeter mode is that it is really simple. The more rules you try to tack onto the game, the more problems you are likely to have. Especially if you go the route that SPM is going right now with the Betas in trying to fix their problems by adding more rules on top of it in an attempt to band aid it.

I personally cannot see any way that someone could exploit an advantage in Lootimeter. There is no opportunity for farming of any kind, and both sides are very motivated to accomplish their goals, which all centre around the central mechanic of the Lootimeter deck.

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May 22nd, 2016, 8:08 pm
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Goblin-King wrote:
That's my point exactly. Maybe a good solution would be to boost just the bosses, but due to NO NEW STUFF that is not an option. It also means a lot of other ideas like bringing Boss Dungeon Effects back are impossible.

A lot of doors are locked due to these self-imposed shackles...


Transplanting your quote form the other thread over to here. One thing about Lootimeter Mode, that we have found through our extensive playtesting, is that the bosses are fine just the way they are. No changes needed. The boss fights have always been exciting affairs, which can swing in either direction. Von Drakk is still a bit of a powerhouse, but it's nice to have varying levels of difficulty. I have no problem with that.

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May 22nd, 2016, 8:27 pm
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Spazzfist wrote:
Goblin-King wrote:
That's my point exactly. Maybe a good solution would be to boost just the bosses, but due to NO NEW STUFF that is not an option. It also means a lot of other ideas like bringing Boss Dungeon Effects back are impossible.

A lot of doors are locked due to these self-imposed shackles...


Transplanting your quote form the other thread over to here. One thing about Lootimeter Mode, that we have found through our extensive playtesting, is that the bosses are fine just the way they are. No changes needed. The boss fights have always been exciting affairs, which can swing in either direction. Von Drakk is still a bit of a powerhouse, but it's nice to have varying levels of difficulty. I have no problem with that.

Wound shunting seems to be the real kicker for why bosses work so well in Lootimiter.
Keeping a few minis and elites on the board essentially gives the boss extra Hearts, so long as he and his buddies aren't targeted by any AoE's.


May 22nd, 2016, 8:47 pm
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Jesus, it's been a while since i been here... seems like y'all been busy....


May 27th, 2016, 12:59 am
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