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 "Lootimeter Mode" Now in ARCADE MODE (pg 31) 
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Mini-Boss
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I would like to preface by saying that I do like this game. I am just not a fan of the current ruleset. I don't think that this means that I need to play something else, or sell my game. I think that there is a lot of good in this, and I have an idea for what I think would make it better, hence the purpose for this post.

For that reason I am playing around with tweaking the rules a bit. In this post I am going to break down my thoughts into three categories: What I Love About this Game; What I Don't Like; What My Intentions Are and SDE 1.5.

What I Love About this Game
1) Theme - I grew up in the 80's so many of these video games from which SDe draws it's influence are very near and dear to my heart. I love the feel that the 1.0 rules gave of the game being like a side-scrolling video game with the "Gauntlet" feel of killing those pesky spawn points.

2) Miniatures - I love the chibi figs. I didn't think I would like them as much as I have grown to, but I really do like them.

3) The variety - I have almost everything from the original set painted (missing one or two mini-bosses), and with all those heroes and bosses, mini-bosses plus all the Forgotten King stuff that I have, I could play this game every day for a year and probably still not hit all the possible combinations (math nerds don't correct me if I'm wrong! :))

4) The Semi-Co-Op mode - I like games which are semi-co-op in this way as it allows me great opportunities for teaching new people the game. I play the consul and help to guide them through what their choices are each turn, providing advice if desired. This also makes it very accessible to kids, which, with the visuals is already very appealing to them. Also as a consul player, I can always have some control on how hard I can make it for the heroes, lightening up if I feel that they are finding it too difficult, in the name of having fun.

What I Don't Like
1) Time - the biggest issue I have with the game right now is time. In a game like this I want to play it for about two hours, no more. But I have found that every game I have played with the current ruleset is still over four hours long. What we were told, and what I was hoping for was a faster gameplay, but in my experience, this is just not the case.

2) First Tile Decides - the first tile is the acid test. There will be SO many monsters coming at the heroes on the first tile, and one, probably two mini bosses as well. If they die, then they will feel that they never stood a chance. If they survive, then they will have so much loot, that the rest of the dungeon will not provide any challenge.

3) No real choices - Sure there will be decisions to be made, such as which hero will go first, which monsters to attack, which hero gets a treasure item or who gets healed. But all of these decisions are pretty superficial and often will be a matter of common sense.

4) Drudgery - that first tile, with all the monsters is a chore to get through. I have played a handful of games now and every one ends up the same way. a slow slog through the first tile and by the time we get through it, there is no cheer of victory, more like a sigh of "thank God that's over".

What My Intentions Are
First and foremost let me say that I am not looking to do anything extreme. I do not want to suggest we go back to the 1.0 rules, nor do I want to make any major overhauls to the way the rules are now. There are, however, some aspects of the 1.0 rules which I want to blend back into the 2.0 rules, hence my naming this “SDE 1.5”.

I am looking to achieve the following:

1) Faster gameplay
2) More real decision making
3) Bring back theme of side-scroller

For the sake of anyone who is reading this for the first time now, I have cut out any of the test I had explaining the new rules on this first post. Since the time that I have introduced it, it caught on and has become a real community effort with great ideas coming in from a lot of different people.

Here is a link for the work in progress rules as they stand now:
http://bit.ly/SDE175
PLEASE NOTE - these rules are in no way official and are still being worked out. We welcome and and all suggestions and contributions to the project, we just really ask that if you are going to challenge or question any rules that you please TRY them first!

the general consensus of those that have tried this new ruleset feel that it is an absolute BLAST! Suddenly the characters are torn between thinning the hordes of monsters to killing the spawn points, to opening treasure boxes and to running forward to kill more spawn points. I have even been equipping heroes with less than optimal items at times to avoid adding them to the Boss Pile and delay having the mini boss come out until I was better prepared. It felt like the theme was back, the fun was back and the speed was definitely MUCH faster!

As always, I appreciate any and all feedback on this.

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Last edited by Spazzfist on February 5th, 2017, 6:53 pm, edited 7 times in total.



June 17th, 2015, 3:36 pm
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Minion
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Sounds pretty interesting.

For using loot to remove a card from the boss pile I think it would have to be restricted to once per hero activation or something otherwise they could just keep discarding to keep the boss from ever appearing. Or at least till the final spawn is destroyed.


June 17th, 2015, 4:49 pm
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JuiceElf wrote:
Sounds pretty interesting.

For using loot to remove a card from the boss pile I think it would have to be restricted to once per hero activation or something otherwise they could just keep discarding to keep the boss from ever appearing. Or at least till the final spawn is destroyed.


I had thought of this too, but in my games, it is often the case in my games that I am discarding cards just to heal. I really doubt that the heroes would have such an influx of spare cards that they are able to keep the boss back indefinitely. Remember, to do that then they are not equipping or healing, so it would be a LOT of cards just pitched. So even if they did throw out every Loot card just to ensure that they can kill the final spawn point before the Dungeon Boss comes out, they will be so Loot poor (and probably beaten up) that they will be no match for the final boss.

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June 17th, 2015, 4:57 pm
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- (EDIT) As in the original rules, if there is one or more spawn points at the point the Dungeon Boss arrives, the boss will get a bonus activation every round while there are still spawn points on the board

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June 17th, 2015, 4:58 pm
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Do the monsters activate like 1.0 (not repeating them until all have activated) or 2.0 (choose whatever you would like and the (mini)boss activates for free)? How about princess coins?

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June 17th, 2015, 11:51 pm
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Mini-Boss
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Gorondil wrote:
Do the monsters activate like 1.0 (not repeating them until all have activated) or 2.0 (choose whatever you would like and the (mini)boss activates for free)? How about princess coins?


The monsters and heroes activate like the did in 1.0. I always turn then to face a different direction to show that they have had their turn. This is necessary to give the proper incentive to kill the spawn points, as the Dungeon Boss will have an extra activation if there are any spawn points left.

The Princess Coins I am still working out. For now, I am doing as per the 2.0 rules and having one spawn every time that a spawn point is destroyed.

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June 18th, 2015, 10:15 am
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Mini-Boss
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JuiceElf wrote:
For using loot to remove a card from the boss pile I think it would have to be restricted to once per hero activation or something otherwise they could just keep discarding to keep the boss from ever appearing. Or at least till the final spawn is destroyed.


I played another game last night, and this did come up as a concern. Once the heroes had good loot and were able to avoid a lot of damage, then they were able to use many cards to hold Rex off for quite a while. I t was agreed that your suggestion would be tested next time as that would not only make the pressure greater, but also serve to speed up the game even more.

As it was the game last night was MUCH better in my opinion. There were three heroes, and it did take three hours to finish, but it was very fast paced and exciting as they desperately fought to knock out the spawn points. One thing that did make it longer was the new dungeon tiles we were using, one of which was the spiral , and I had placed the spawn point in the middle of it, making it take even longer for the heroes to get to it.

But overall, the testing has been very positive.

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June 18th, 2015, 10:18 am
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First of all, I think this idea is just simple and brilliant. The old damage meter being substituted by the loot count + damage on heroes makes perfect sense since it equals what it was. I was trying something like that for Arcade (described in another thread), but this is just better.

Now, I understood that, when you play, the loot thta is equiped doesn't count towards summoning the boss. Is that right? However, wont that make the game last longer? I agree that the game needs to be faster so the idea of discarding loot of extend it seems to be counter productive.

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June 18th, 2015, 1:21 pm
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Mini-Boss
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Gorondil wrote:
First of all, I think this idea is just simple and brilliant. The old damage meter being substituted by the loot count + damage on heroes makes perfect sense since it equals what it was. I was trying something like that for Arcade (described in another thread), but this is just better.

Now, I understood that, when you play, the loot thta is equiped doesn't count towards summoning the boss. Is that right? However, wont that make the game last longer? I agree that the game needs to be faster so the idea of discarding loot of extend it seems to be counter productive.


Thanks for the positive feedback.

The answer to your first question is yes, any loot that is equipped will not count towards summoning the boss. But remember, that if a loot is ever discarded (i.e. replaced), then it goes towards the boss summoning pile (BSP). You are right, it will make the game a bit longer, but you still need to balance the speed of the game with the ability of the heroes to grab enough loot to deal with the boss and mini boss. Making the mini boss and dungeon boss come out too quickly would be counterproductive as well. It is all about finding the right balance!

I am definitely going to try out Juiceelf's suggestion of only allowing the heroes to discard a loot card to reduce the BSP only once per hero activation. This will help to prevent drawing out the game, as it still was a bit too long during our last play.

But all of this is still largely speculative and still needs more playtesting. If you like the idea, I suggest that you try it out and see what works for you. Just be sure to report back here and share your findings!

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June 18th, 2015, 2:48 pm
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I was just thinking that, if you consider the equipped loot as well, then it matches up with 1.0 . So, in terms of balance, it should be closer to what it was (with all its play test). But I will definitely try it out and post about it later.

Your proposal is, in my opinion, the best reform that I have seen, but it still unsolves the problem of having to move ALL the minions/elites, even the ones very far away. I'm going to try moving a number of consul turns equal to the number of heroes, to help keep up the pace.

Also, if having all these princess coins lying around makes the game too easy for the players, one option is to have the (mini)boss activate for free (maybe even twice in a round, but still once per turn), as long as there is still a spawning point up. Just a thought.

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June 18th, 2015, 3:38 pm
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Gorondil wrote:
I was just thinking that, if you consider the equipped loot as well, then it matches up with 1.0 . So, in terms of balance, it should be closer to what it was (with all its play test). But I will definitely try it out and post about it later.


For sure. this is very much in a playtesting phase for me, but it is definitely the only way I will be playing it from now on!

Gorondil wrote:
Your proposal is, in my opinion, the best reform that I have seen, but it still unsolves the problem of having to move ALL the minions/elites, even the ones very far away. I'm going to try moving a number of consul turns equal to the number of heroes, to help keep up the pace.


Thanks for the support! I am not sure though, what you mean about "the problem of having to move ALL of the minions/elites". Fresh waves of monsters keep coming. While this may be what slows the game down, it is still necessary. Otherwise things are too easy. And, like I had originally said, I am not looking to do any major overhauls of the rules.


Gorondil wrote:
Also, if having all these princess coins lying around makes the game too easy for the players, one option is to have the (mini)boss activate for free (maybe even twice in a round, but still once per turn), as long as there is still a spawning point up. Just a thought.


I think the easier fix for Princess Coins (assuming that it is indeed to easy for the heroes) is to change the event that brings them about. Maybe the killing of a mini-boss? In many games, this would mean that there is going to be only one Princess Coin, but so be it.

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June 18th, 2015, 4:06 pm
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Mini-Boss
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One thing I should mention two is a couple of things that became necessary with the Loot Cards during my last playtest.

(1) It is highly likely that your Loot Cards are going to run out before the end of the game. When this happens, just reshuffle the cards that have been removed from play by the heroes special discard.

(2) Once the mini-boss has been summoned, then reshuffle all the cards in the Boss Summon Deck (BSD) back into the loot pile. At this point the summoning gauge is at 16 and can never be reduced to less than 16.

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June 18th, 2015, 5:03 pm
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I find that the problem with moving all the minions is that by the time the heroes get to third or so tile the minions are all bottle necked and the heroes can't ever get by them to take out the spawn point.


June 18th, 2015, 5:20 pm
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JuiceElf wrote:
I find that the problem with moving all the minions is that by the time the heroes get to third or so tile the minions are all bottle necked and the heroes can't ever get by them to take out the spawn point.


Well, with good use of AOE attacks, or a character that can pounce, fly or teleport, getting past the bottleneck is just a matter of planning. It may put one hero in some severe danger, but them's the risks!

But just so I'm clear, what is it that you are proposing? That for every hero activation the Consul is then able to move four skulls worth of monsters? And thereby, if there are monsters left over that have not moved once all the heroes have gone they do not get to move?

While this is an intriguing idea, I think it would be better served in a different thread as it more of a rule overhaul than a blending of the two rulesets, which is what I had intended.

But I would be interested to hear how this works out from anyone who has tried it.

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June 18th, 2015, 5:36 pm
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I love the idea of using loot cards as a timer, but feel like it needs to be a bit more cut and dry.

What if we shuffled the loot deck, then counted down 8 cards > insert mid boss marker. 8 more cards > boss marker.

so as you draw loot you inevitably and unerringly hit those crucial boss fights. there is no stalling. you want loot? you'll get bosses.

The slightly disappointing thing here is only having the 1 mid-boss fight, but again if you are looking for a shorter game, having 4 different flipping mid bosses plus a final boss is not the way to do it. Perhaps in a 4-5 hero game you spawn double mid-bosses when the midboss marker is reached. I'd take less mid-bosses for a shorter game any day though. and you could just respawn the midboss after it's first death or even allow consul to spawn midbosses from a roster.

extra boss activations per spawner left like v1 = brilliant and a good motivator for heroes to hurry up and destroy them again.

making mid boss spawning not triggered by spawner destruction = brilliant, no reason for Consul to spam spawner to get quick mid bosses, after all consul wants to save them for final boss support.

I'd love to go back to the spawn 4 skulls activate 4 skulls method, alternating consul turns with each hero's turn. tracking bonus skulls would be too much work IMO. If we wanted to keep the bonus spawning skulls mechanic from v1 it could be something like looting a treasure chest gives the consul 4 bonus skulls worth of spawns. so a quick rebuttal to the players newly acquired wealth.

Limiting princess coins to be midboss drops is a cool idea. a single mid boss speeds up play significantly for the heroes, and a hero coming back only once speeds up the game from the consul's standpoint. it also creates a check/balance system for the consul respawning midbosses. is it worth offering up another potential princess coin to send the midboss out again... Of course to enforce a faster game you could only allow one mid-boss per game and thus 1 princess coin per game, as any room for free choice could result in a longer game or even a midboss/coin stalemate.

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June 19th, 2015, 1:22 pm
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CrashGem wrote:
I love the idea of using loot cards as a timer, but feel like it needs to be a bit more cut and dry.

What if we shuffled the loot deck, then counted down 8 cards > insert mid boss marker. 8 more cards > boss marker.

so as you draw loot you inevitably and unerringly hit those crucial boss fights. there is no stalling. you want loot? you'll get bosses.


I think this idea has some real merit! It might be more interesting to deal a set number of cards with the boss being in the final five somewhere, the mini-boss being somewhere in the middle (but definitely not the card right before the boss) and then a bunch of buffer loot cards on top and then in between the boss and mini-boss. Sounds interesting.

The reason I had proposed my method as I did, was to give the heroes another difficult choice to make every turn - whether to sacrifice loot in order to delay the inevitable.


CrashGem wrote:
The slightly disappointing thing here is only having the 1 mid-boss fight, but again if you are looking for a shorter game, having 4 different flipping mid bosses plus a final boss is not the way to do it. Perhaps in a 4-5 hero game you spawn double mid-bosses when the midboss marker is reached. I'd take less mid-bosses for a shorter game any day though. and you could just respawn the midboss after it's first death or even allow consul to spawn midbosses from a roster.


I like the idea of 2 mini bosses showing up in a four player game - it's a nice balancing mechanism!

CrashGem wrote:
extra boss activations per spawner left like v1 = brilliant and a good motivator for heroes to hurry up and destroy them again.

making mid boss spawning not triggered by spawner destruction = brilliant, no reason for Consul to spam spawner to get quick mid bosses, after all consul wants to save them for final boss support.


100% agree.

CrashGem wrote:
I'd love to go back to the spawn 4 skulls activate 4 skulls method, alternating consul turns with each hero's turn. tracking bonus skulls would be too much work IMO. If we wanted to keep the bonus spawning skulls mechanic from v1 it could be something like looting a treasure chest gives the consul 4 bonus skulls worth of spawns. so a quick rebuttal to the players newly acquired wealth.


Another interesting mechanic to consider! Really encouraged the heroes to open chests when all monsters are already spawned.

CrashGem wrote:
Limiting princess coins to be midboss drops is a cool idea. a single mid boss speeds up play significantly for the heroes, and a hero coming back only once speeds up the game from the consul's standpoint. it also creates a check/balance system for the consul respawning midbosses. is it worth offering up another potential princess coin to send the midboss out again... Of course to enforce a faster game you could only allow one mid-boss per game and thus 1 princess coin per game, as any room for free choice could result in a longer game or even a midboss/coin stalemate.


I would tend to lean towards having a set number of mini-bosses in the game. Respawning them is just going to lead to drudgery and also reduces the idea of how special they are.

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June 19th, 2015, 1:39 pm
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I mentioned the idea of randomizing the monet when the (mini)boss would appear by shuffling a marked card in the command deck (on my variant arcade mode, which no one commented on :( ), however, I tend to believe that it better to know when it is going to happen, both for the heroes and for the consul, so they can be ready for it.

The bonus skulls are a good idea. It is a way to clean up stats as well. I noticed that the old meter board showed only 7 skulls. So, bonus skulls should be 2-3 per chest, maybe?

Two mini bosses available for spawning is a good idea, though. Princess coins are always good to avoid player elimination, so I would consider having as many as necessary, but, to make it possible for the consul to win too, maybe they could no longer be used when the boss arrived and/or the hero could maybe come back with no loot.

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June 19th, 2015, 1:58 pm
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Gorondil wrote:
I mentioned the idea of randomizing the monet when the (mini)boss would appear by shuffling a marked card in the command deck (on my variant arcade mode, which no one commented on :( ), however, I tend to believe that it better to know when it is going to happen, both for the heroes and for the consul, so they can be ready for it.


Try not to take it personally if people do not comment on your ideas. I have posted many things that do not get comments on, and likewise many things are posted that I do not even read. It isn't a reflection on whether or not your ideas are actually good, more just whether you are getting people's attention. Even then some people may like it but aren't motivated to respond.

So a retroactive "good idea" to you! :lol:

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June 19th, 2015, 2:03 pm
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Sounds like everyone is on the same page.

Randomizing the mid-boss and final boss spawns could be cool, but without solid backed mini sleeves it would be harder to implement. Basically if the deck got uneven you would literally "see it coming" anyways. but if you wanted a bit of randomization...

shuffle the loot cards. count down 5, take out 3 shuffle the mid boss into those three, count down 5 and take out 3, shuffle boss into the three, replace cards into stack. now there is a slight variance of when you will encounter mid boss and boss. enough to make you start to question... "one more loot? we ready for this? Will this be the one?"

double mid bosses on 4-5 player sounds solid. grants the party 2 coins. any more than that and really you are asking for the game to last forever. what happens to players who get killed with no coins? well, what happened to bankrupt monopoly people? you spectate, get snacks, hang out, cheer on your friends. I suppose you could have a fun rule for dead players.

Dead Heroes
you are dead. on your turn you may do one of the following:

curse: cause a random status on target enemy
or
bless: +1★ to target hero's target stat for 1 turn

3 bonus skulls per chest is pretty solid. could make it 3 per treasure acquired... mid boss drops 1 key and 1 princess coin. Puts more value on being able to pick locks.

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June 19th, 2015, 4:32 pm
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CrashGem wrote:
Randomizing the mid-boss and final boss spawns could be cool, but without solid backed mini sleeves it would be harder to implement. Basically if the deck got uneven you would literally "see it coming" anyways. but if you wanted a bit of randomization...


If you are going this route, then you could always pick a crappy card and either put a sticker or a small mark on it to indicate that it is a "boss card" while not altering it in any major way.

CrashGem wrote:
shuffle the loot cards. count down 5, take out 3 shuffle the mid boss into those three, count down 5 and take out 3, shuffle boss into the three, replace cards into stack. now there is a slight variance of when you will encounter mid boss and boss. enough to make you start to question... "one more loot? we ready for this? Will this be the one?"


If there would be one card turned over for every hero wound, then there would have to be significantly more than five cards as a buffer before any boss summoning. Herein lies the big questions with this system, which would be: what is the right number of cards to put into the deck? Would this number change with the number of heroes? Playtesting would be required.

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June 19th, 2015, 4:50 pm
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