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 The Known facts, the Unknown facts, and the hearsay 
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Mini-Boss
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Joined: November 3rd, 2016, 9:02 am
Posts: 620
Location: South East England
Lets see how this goes before it ends up with childish insults and misinformation.

Picture if you will, we are doing an impartial look at the stage of SPM/ND in reguards to Super Dungeon. A lot of rumours and hearsay are classed as Fact, a lot of unknowns are treated at knowns. Just because one person, or even a group can't think of an option, doesn't mean that option isn't there. So I'll do this little list. feel free to talk about points or add them. Hopefully, try to give some reason/reference to the point and why it is what it is. We will have 3 categories.. Oh and this are all taken from statements that HAVE been said by others. Not me.. so don't moan if they are pretty stupid things people have said.

1) Known Facts
-This are facts we know. While nothing is known in a real sense, We shall try to deal with stuff which can be proved in a way. For example, If I got an order from someplace, and the seller said they have dispatched it. I do NOT known this for a fact. Though if I got order tracking and tracking reports, via a third party, that it is in it's way, or I received the item. So if we have been told something, but cannot prove it, It is NOT a known fact, but an unknown fact.

2) Unknown Facts
-As stated above. If we have been told something but cannot back it up in some way, it is an unknown fact. if the Fact is unknown because we haven't been told anything, then anything on the topic presented by anyone as 'known' or 'fact' is hearsay

3) Hearsay.
- People make guesses. Sometimes logically guesses, sometimes not. If a guess as been made, it goes here.

Now for the real lists:

1) Known Facts
  1. Super Dungeon 2.0 rules and cards have been written and designed - {Proof is they are downloadable though may be tweaked}
  2. No updates will be given on the progress of the campaign until achieved targets have been reached - {I'm gonna go with known for this. No updates have been given since it was stated, and it appears to be the case after a lot of negative feedback on giving progress and information updates with little to say were posted. I've read somewhere that some updates are being posted on other campaigns when things happen, so I think I got enough to go with Known}
    [[/list]

    2) Unknown Facts
    1. Miniatures other delayed campaigns are being manufactured - {Unknown as I am not a supporter of the other campaigns to have seen any photographs or received any. I have 'heard' that some have gotten SOME items, showing that something is being done, but I haven't seen any proof as yet.}
    2. Super Dungeon KS is not totally on hold until everything else is done. {I think information has been confusing on this topic. but official word seams to be that fulfilment will NOT wait until EVERYTHING else has been done, but everything else is sorted out and well into creation and running smoothly. Can't remember the full quotes though and we can't prove this either way}
    3. Ninja Division has lied to us - {clearly unknown. I haven't seen any thing which is a lie. I see information which they believed true which didn't come to pass, and I've seen lack of information, but nothing I would call a lie. But then, since I don't know that what they said they knew in good faith was true or not, I cannot say. So it's completely unknown if they have ever lied to us or not}

    3) Hearsay
    1. High ranking members of SPM/ND suffer from Mental illness - {no Official word on this, no doctors notes or anything, so this is not only Malicious, but as someone that does have mental health issues, I take such claims without merits as very insulting to anyone that has any problems}
    2. John Cadice received $1.3 million US dollars as a direct deposit from 6000 former Fans - {Okay, this one is just beyond a joke. For a start, that is based on the goal reached by the KS, and doesn't include all the orders taken via the Shop. For another, it wasn't just HIM, it was the company. a Company is no more one person then a government is just the prime minster., thirdly while it slightly overdoes the amount raised by the KS alone, it under does the number of backers by over 600, and doing so claims that 6,000 people are now former fans and only 611 (the figure difference) are still fans. again, doesn't take into account Shop orders. Fourthly, direct deposit means directly into his bank account which as said in number 2, isn't right. it was into the companies. So if the statement was changed into 'Ninja Division received' then it would have some more truth but oh well.}
    3. Nothing has been fulfilled as part of the SDLKS - {While we can debate bits, one of the things was a free digital painting guide by Mike McVee. This was released. It was LATER (well, about the same time) released printed with a third party (Army Painter) paint kit. 70 Backers of the KS signed up to Digital only, and on that front, with the release of SD:E V2 rules, Cards, Tiles, Pets Rules and tokens, etc, A lot of the digital has been released. What hasn't is the full Legends Rule books, Missions, Lore book.}
    4. The company is bankrupt but not telling us, and can be prove because family members are still second hand goods - {gonna totally put this as rumour. I've been selling a lot of old junk of mine like some toys and stuff, which are just taking up space and I don't (and in some cases have never) played with or opened. Some I buy joblots to get the odd bit to fix up older ones and the bits I don't need, I resell. My sister sells makeup for a new-ish and popular company. This is meant to be prove I have a major money issue? for the old junk, it's more a proof that 1) I don't want the stuff and 2) I have a major SPACE problem.. well, not that major but the more I get rid of, the more space I get back which is good.}
    5. SD: Legends will never happen - {defined context. I think people have shown that in the state Legends is now, it's fully playable. Just not many Official missions. and not with plastic figures that come with the game (which were just gender swaps anyway)}

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If you want to see some SD related stuff I've made and shared, why not check out my thread:
http://community.sodapopminiatures.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=14638
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October 3rd, 2018, 12:44 pm
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Mini-Boss
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Joined: October 29th, 2012, 8:56 pm
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@Manicman - I think a big part of the issue is that only ND/SPM know all the facts and even if they were transparent/communicated, there is a substantial population of backers (vocal or not) that have lost faith in the company - either in their ability to deliver/fulfill/keep commitments and promises or due to their current business practices (lack of communication and transparency or how they've thus far publically communicated their priorities).

So, in terms of facts, we can definitely say SDL KS is delayed with no timeline/ETA, no planned transparent/public interim steps/progress, etc. I think we can agree (fact?) that this is not a good/positive position to be in as either the creator or backer of a project.

Whether you consider the KS to fulfill or not is (imo) based on whether you consider getting progress updates as evidence that a KS is moving forward/will fulfill. SDL has thus far stopped these (and hasn't had them for months and based on their updates, slid further back beyond the progress they thought they achieved).

I think the fact is that backers do not have sufficient evidence or assurances from the creator to guarantee the project will succeed and thus it's appropriate to assume that it will fail and/or not meet its original commitments (beyond the obvious of missing the timeline and changing the product after funding to be something very different beyond the minis).


October 3rd, 2018, 3:10 pm
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Mini-Boss
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Joined: November 3rd, 2016, 9:02 am
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Location: South East England
Yep, I would agree that only they know (but add with some things like there third party manufacturers, they probably DON'T fully know unless they also say what's going on, which isn't always the case) and that some people have totally lost faith in the company, but they the company has said that they will take people's abusive nature, I don't remember agreeing I will, nor any of the other people that have some hope left.. the people that are completely negative don't seam to care who they hurt in the crossfire, or even who they target as some of the support crews which have nothing to do with the problems (like ND Spain, ND UK etc) should be physically and verbally abuse. The world isn't just, but that is so far removed that it's gone way past 'unjust'.

Anyway.. yep we can say it's Delayed with no ETA given. I would disagree that there is no timeline. Timelines don't have to be public, they don't even have to have a fixed point to start from. Just "When A day arrives, start timeline, 3 months in, we should be at B point" etc. but if they aren't sure when the timeline is gonna start, that is a bad thing for creators and backers really. not a totally bad one at times, but not good.

I'm not sure about the fulfilment bit.. while they should be giving updates, it's not techinally part of fulfilment (the final goods). Lack of information isn't nice but it need not be a sign of anything apart from bad PR.

I can see what you are getting at that lack of evidence (i'm not sure if there is a lack of assurance) that a project is guaranteed to succeed means you should expect it to fail or at least meant the original commitments (which have already grown).. I can see why that might be gone to but it's kinda like a drawing program or something with a snap feature.. you might be close enough to the one side for it to snap into place, but doesn't mean that it should go into that place and not somewhere else. okay, that's probably a bad simile but maybe not.. I do think that enough work has been done NOT to fully fulfil or even get half way there, but to show that something HAS been achieved and there for it can be said that it might not or seams like it might not FULL succeed or happen in full, but it has 'happened'.. and since a lot of people seam very fussy about what words have and have not been used, expecting the same level of language from others should be expected. I know we can't all use the very right words for there correct meaning and context, but can do our best and try not to fall into very clear traps..

_________________
================
If you want to see some SD related stuff I've made and shared, why not check out my thread:
http://community.sodapopminiatures.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=14638
================


October 3rd, 2018, 7:09 pm
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Moderator Ninja
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Joined: April 1st, 2012, 3:24 pm
Posts: 1806
Location: Woodbury, CT
I feel like this one probably should be finished before it starts.


October 3rd, 2018, 9:37 pm
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