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spyrosbeam wrote:
Just worth mentioning: Whatever Starshine does for the heroes, Crusher's (Rocktop monion) Thick Shell does for the consul too.


Not necessarily, since the crusher doesn't have reach and the rules clearly says that if there is no range, it's self only. It's interesting to note that it also has the augment trait even though it clearly can't use it on anyone else but him.

The question is, does Reach gives its range to the special ability. Well, it can be argue both ways and well, unless we get an official answer, it's gonna be to each their interpretation:

Reach, pg 31: Part 1-''This ability allows the model to target an ENEMY with a MELEE attack up to X squares away.'' So it clearly says that it targets enemy only and is still considered a melee attack. So it's not a range attack, just an extension of the melee range... normally 1 square adjacent, now X squares. That's simple enough, you have a bigger reach for your melee attack!

Part 2-''A model may use ANY of its abilities or SPECIAL ACTIONS using Reach X, UNLESS specified otherwise.'' That's where it can be argued, but my guess is just that they should have wrote SPECIAL ATTACKS instead of ACTIONS( which would solve the problem), but currently, since it's not in the errata, it's just a guess. So, is it specified otherwise in the actions that you can't use it? Not explicitly, but since augment only target allies and reach only enemies, you can't target your allies with Reach and enemies can't benefit from an Augment action. So yeah, it kinda specify otherwise, but not explicitly.

Now, thematically speaking, Reach is just that he has a very big hammer to hit enemies farther away, and starshine is in reference of when you become invincible using a star in Super Mario Bros; he could not give it to Luigi. So, unless we get an official answer, I'll personally use the action as a self-target only.


June 24th, 2012, 2:40 pm
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Red Castle wrote:
Part 2-''A model may use ANY of its abilities or SPECIAL ACTIONS using Reach X, UNLESS specified otherwise.'' That's where it can be argued, but my guess is just that they should have wrote SPECIAL ATTACKS instead of ACTIONS( which would solve the problem), but currently, since it's not in the errata, it's just a guess. .


IMO, there's nothing to argue or guess, reading the rulebook is enough: special actions exists and are described p.19, they are represented by a blue button, starshine has a blue button so it's a special action and can use reach. Quite simple to me, isn't it?


June 24th, 2012, 3:14 pm
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You know, the wording between those two rules " abilities with no range are self-only" and "you can use the range of your abilities" have caused more arguments, especially in the past few weeks, than any other rules. At this point, I wish SPM had just omitted the second rule and given every Special Ability/Attack an explicit range, including self-only.

That, and defining every Special Ability as targeting only friendlies, only enemies, or both.

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June 24th, 2012, 7:08 pm
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Celtkhan wrote:
You know, the wording between those two rules " abilities with no range are self-only" and "you can use the range of your abilities" have caused more arguments, especially in the past few weeks, than any other rules. At this point, I wish SPM had just omitted the second rule and given every Special Ability/Attack an explicit range, including self-only.

That, and defining every Special Ability as targeting only friendlies, only enemies, or both.


Tell me about it... I actually am more confused now that I started to read the forum boards than before... ;)


June 24th, 2012, 11:40 pm
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Red Castle wrote:
Celtkhan wrote:
You know, the wording between those two rules " abilities with no range are self-only" and "you can use the range of your abilities" have caused more arguments, especially in the past few weeks, than any other rules. At this point, I wish SPM had just omitted the second rule and given every Special Ability/Attack an explicit range, including self-only.

That, and defining every Special Ability as targeting only friendlies, only enemies, or both.


Tell me about it... I actually am more confused now that I started to read the forum boards than before... ;)


That's a problem with casual rules writing and rather hardcore rules interpretation you get when you hand the game to war-gamers. You run of the mill play group won't find or exploit many of the interactions you will find here because they simply don't look at the rules that way.

That being said the rules could do with a rewrite/overhall to patch the holes and clarify how things interact.


June 25th, 2012, 2:05 am
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Hi everyone,

Figured I'd stop by and lend an assist on the debate.

3B vs 1B1R - We are aware that statistically 3B on average is slightly better than 1B1R and has a higher maximum. Most Heroes start with a baseline ARM of 3B. From there we adjust it up or down based on playtesting and how we want them to play. At the moment we only have three heroes who have 1B1R, Paladin, Druid, and now the Sapper.

The Paladin is probably the "strangest" model to get a downgrade in armor. At one point he ran around at 2B 1R. He was a juggernaut and stole a lot of the Hearthsworn's thunder as a tank. This was due to a couple reasons, first his iron halo ability buffs his and his allies armor and second his Elixir potion is, well, awesome. Over time we decided that a lower armor was both more reasonably powered and more interesting to the party dynamic when he was a little bit more vulnerable.

The Druid was lowered due to his potion's ability to give the entire party healer and his special action backlash, which can be absolutely brutal. Even more so the higher his armor goes. Plus, he maintains the ability to "power-up" his armor by shifting to Angry Bear.

The Sapper was lowered to help differentiate him further from his brother dwarf the Hearthsworn. In addition his six wounds and particularly easy access to Status Effect Immunity makes him able to easily shrug off all of the nastiest things the Consul can throw at him. You'll find that he is a whole other sort of tank.

Speaking of the Sapper, lets go over his Starshine ability. The simple answer is: The Starguild Sapper's, Starshine; Rocktop Crusher's, Thick Shell; and Roxor's, Magma special actions are all self targeting only.

Now that you have the answer, here's the (brief) discussion on our thought process.
Chris and I have gone over all of your points carefully. We placed "Augment" in the all of the beneficial special actions to help identify them as just that, beneficial. Since none of the three actions list a range, your points that are causing confusion are subtle enough that neither us nor our playtesters caught that it may be inferred that the use of "Augment" might imply that you could "melee" the special action onto another Hero. Nonetheless, since (if) it is causing confusion we will errata it out.

We will also be doing an errata on Reach replacing "Special Action" with "Special Attack".
Also on Reach, remember that Reach is not a "Ranged Effect," it is just a special ability that gives the model the ability to be in melee with more distant squares.

Whew, I hope all of that made sense.... Thanks everyone, your input just helps us improve and make the game better for everyone!

Deke

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June 27th, 2012, 11:17 pm
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SPM_Deke wrote:
Hi everyone,

Figured I'd stop by and lend an assist on the debate.

3B vs 1B1R - We are aware that statistically 3B on average is slightly better than 1B1R and has a higher maximum. Most Heroes start with a baseline ARM of 3B. From there we adjust it up or down based on playtesting and how we want them to play. At the moment we only have three heroes who have 1B1R, Paladin, Druid, and now the Sapper.

The Paladin is probably the "strangest" model to get a downgrade in armor. At one point he ran around at 2B 1R. He was a juggernaut and stole a lot of the Hearthsworn's thunder as a tank. This was due to a couple reasons, first his iron halo ability buffs his and his allies armor and second his Elixir potion is, well, awesome. Over time we decided that a lower armor both more reasonably powered and more interesting to the party dynamic when he was a little bit more vulnerable.

The Druid was lowered due to his potion's ability to give the entire party healer and his special action backlash, which can be absolutely brutal. Even more so the higher his armor goes. Plus, he maintains the ability to "power-up" his armor by shifting to Angry Bear.

The Sapper was lowered to help differentiate him further from his brother dwarf the Hearthsworn. In addition his six wounds and particularly easy access to Status Effect Immunity makes him able to easily shrug off all of the nastiest things the Consul can throw at him. You'll find that he is a whole other sort of tank.

Speaking of the Sapper, lets go over his Starshine ability. The simple answer is: The Starguild Sapper's, Starshine; Rocktop Crusher's, Thick Shell; and Roxor's, Magma special actions are all self targeting only.

Now that you have the answer, here's the (brief) discussion on our thought process.
Chris and I have gone over all of your points carefully. We placed "Augment" in the all of the beneficial special actions to help identify them as just that, beneficial. Since none of the three actions list a range, your points that are causing confusion are subtle enough that neither us nor our playtesters caught that it may be inferred that the use of "Augment" could imply that you could "melee" the special action onto another Hero. Nonetheless, since (if) it is causing confusion we will errata it out.

We will also be doing an errata on Reach replacing "Special Action" with "Special Attack".
Also on Reach, remember that Reach is not a "Ranged Effect," it is just a special ability that gives the model the ability to be in melee with more distant squares.

Whew, I hope all of that made sense.... Thanks everyone, your input just helps us improve and make the game better for everyone!

Deke


This just made my day! Thanks for the clarification and insight!


June 27th, 2012, 11:24 pm
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Good to know; Special Actions can be used with Missile, Magic, and Range, but not Reach. I'm just glad our discussions are helping the ruleset.

Now, if we could get some clarity on the morass that is Smoke Pot... ;)

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June 28th, 2012, 12:08 am
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Celtkhan wrote:
Good to know; Special Actions can be used with Missile, Magic, and Range, but not Reach. I'm just glad our discussions are helping the ruleset.

Now, if we could get some clarity on the morass that is Smoke Pot... ;)


And de berries! Don't forget de berries! D:


June 28th, 2012, 12:54 am
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SPM_Deke wrote:
Speaking of the Sapper, lets go over his Starshine ability. The simple answer is: The Starguild Sapper's, Starshine; Rocktop Crusher's, Thick Shell; and Roxor's, Magma special actions are all self targeting only.

Now that you have the answer, here's the (brief) discussion on our thought process.
Chris and I have gone over all of your points carefully. We placed "Augment" in the all of the beneficial special actions to help identify them as just that, beneficial. Since none of the three actions list a range, your points that are causing confusion are subtle enough that neither us nor our playtesters caught that it may be inferred that the use of "Augment" might imply that you could "melee" the special action onto another Hero. Nonetheless, since (if) it is causing confusion we will errata it out.

We will also be doing an errata on Reach replacing "Special Action" with "Special Attack".
Also on Reach, remember that Reach is not a "Ranged Effect," it is just a special ability that gives the model the ability to be in melee with more distant squares.
Deke


I'm glad to see I got it right with the Special Action and Special Attack mix-up.

Thank you very much for giving us an official answer.

This game is made to be as simple as it can be, I'm surprise to see how some group of players read way to much into the rules and forget to simply use logic.


June 28th, 2012, 2:06 am
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Red, note my sig. :)

As for "logic," Reach, Missile, Range, and Magic all use the exact same wording. Logic would demand that the rules being worded exactly the same means they must apply exactly the same way. The fact that they are not can be described as many things, but "logical" is not one of them. :p

Deke, I truly appreciate you showing up here and clearing up questions. I also appreciate all the hard work you put in so we can goof off in our free time with your games.

That said, I -really- hope you found a local group of competitive wargamers to utterly shred the Relic Knights rules, repeatedly, to patch any holes they find. 8-)

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June 28th, 2012, 2:23 am
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Celtkhan wrote:
Red, note my sig. :)

As for "logic," Reach, Missile, Range, and Magic all use the exact same wording. Logic would demand that the rules being worded exactly the same means they must apply exactly the same way. The fact that they are not can be described as many things, but "logical" is not one of them. :p


I'm sorry, I used the unholy gaming word. Is Common Gamer Sense better?

And quite frankly, reading Magic X and Missile X, I do think the mix-up apply to them too. There is no mention of Special Attack, so technically you would not be able to use a red button action with those. So, I personally think that, unless there is a range, Blue Actions is always target-self.

So Reach, Missile and Magic use the hero abilities like Fire or Poison and can be use (unless specified otherwise) with Special Attacks (red button), but do not affect Special Actions (blue button).


June 28th, 2012, 1:15 pm
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Red Castle wrote:
And quite frankly, reading Magic X and Missile X, I do think the mix-up apply to them too. There is no mention of Special Attack, so technically you would not be able to use a red button action with those. So, I personally think that, unless there is a range, Blue Actions is always target-self.

So Reach, Missile and Magic use the hero abilities like Fire or Poison and can be use (unless specified otherwise) with Special Attacks (red button), but do not affect Special Actions (blue button).


Which means Smoke Pot is just so much wasted ink on a card. It's a Blue Button with no range, so by your assumption it must self-target. However, it's Burst 1, not Wave 1, so it must be used with a Ranged action. And since the only Range the Flinger has is Missile 6, which you believe to be a misprint, it can't be used with that, either.

Not being able to activate it at all would certainly clear up the issue with Smoke Pot, but I doubt it's what the devs have in mind. ;)

BTW, I'd avoid using phrases like "logic" or "common sense" when referring to debates where both sides have legitimate interpretations on the rules. It's only a small step from implying that anyone disagreeing with you is an idiot. Down that road lies heartache and flamewars. :o

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June 28th, 2012, 3:14 pm
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I really didn't want to imply that anyone disagreeing with me is an idiot, I'm really sorry if that sounded this way. Can I use the 'not my native language card' here?

Smoke pot is currently the only ability that pose a problem as I really don't know how it was intended to be; wave or range burst. I currently play it like the thief ability, a wave 1 special action; but I could be wrong and would be okay with the other way around.

My reasoning come from the fact that Special Attack is not written in neither Missile X nor Magic X, but it does write Special Actions. And except for this case, every other character Special Actions list a range. If we take the Flinger as exemple, with the rules as written, he can't use Hot Pot with his Missile 6 ability, since it's a Special Attack, but can use Smoke Pot. It doesn't make sense, so clearly we can't use the rule as written and must then use deduction. Since Hot Pot give +1bd to Dex, clearly it was meant to be use in conjunction with Missile so you are able to use Special Attack with Missiles. As for Special Actions, looking at all the cards from the game except this one, they all list a Range or Wave. So we have 2 choice and only a dev can clarify it: either it was meant to be a Wave 1 ability or they forgot to add Range 6. If it really is a range 6 burst, by the rules it must absolutely target a model so it's weird to be tactically limited by that, hence why I personally think that it was suppose to be a wave ability, just like the thief smoke screen.

I could be wrong of course, but that's my reasoning and I really think that unless a range is written, Special Actions is target self only, like it says in Special Actions pg 19; you can't use them in conjunction with Reach, Missile or Magic.


June 28th, 2012, 5:42 pm
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Red Castle wrote:
I really didn't want to imply that anyone disagreeing with me is an idiot, I'm really sorry if that sounded this way. Can I use the 'not my native language card' here?


You can indeed. I assumed it was unintentional; internet communication really does a bad job at conveying tone. :)


Smoke pot is currently the only ability that pose a problem as I really don't know how it was intended to be; wave or range burst. I currently play it like the thief ability, a wave 1 special action; but I could be wrong and would be okay with the other way around.

<snip>

I could be wrong of course, but that's my reasoning and I really think that unless a range is written, Special Actions is target self only, like it says in Special Actions pg 19; you can't use them in conjunction with Reach, Missile or Magic.[/quote]

Fair enough. Your reasoning is sound, but assumes misprints on the cards. I'm unwilling to base my position on "the devs screwed up," even if I may personally hold that view. ;)

Until Deke stepped in, there was no (apparent) functional difference between Reach and Range, since both use the ATT stat. Now that he has clarified, there is a difference. Namely, that Special Actions/Attacks may use the range of a ranged ability (note: not a Range ability, there is a difference), while Reach is a -melee- ability. So you can't use Reach on SAs.

However, Missile, Magic, and Range are all listed as ranged abilities on the last page which, combined with the last sentence of each of their rules, makes me believe that Special Actions can be used with any of them interchangeably.

As for Special Attacks not being listed as part of the Range, Missile, or Magic rules, it was probably considered unnecessary since it already says you may use it to make attacks. It never said they must be basic attacks; the implication is that even Special Attacks can use it.

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June 28th, 2012, 9:11 pm
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Direct me to the smoke debate. I know there is one (many) but which one is the alpha and omega so that I may slay it, snicker-snack!

....or you know, present more questions with my awesome answers. ;)

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June 28th, 2012, 9:26 pm
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In this thread, we had a lively discussion on who could be targeted by Smoke Pot, whether it could be used on an adjacent model (or the Flinger himself), whether it was supposed to be an attack or action, and if the ability could be even used at all. ;) Also, do Wave/Aura effects require LoS?

Meanwhile, this discussion is tangentially related, asking what AoE effects can be blocked by smoke and where LoS is drawn from in a Burst attack,: attacker or point of impact?

I think we've settled most of those questions, but we're not entirely sure. We definitely don't know the Wave/Aura one. :|

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Last edited by Celtkhan on June 28th, 2012, 10:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.



June 28th, 2012, 9:59 pm
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SPM_Deke wrote:
Direct me to the smoke debate. I know there is one (many) but which one is the alpha and omega so that I may slay it, snicker-snack!

....or you know, present more questions with my awesome answers. ;)


It's kinda hard to point somewhere specifically because it keeps creeping up a little everywhere!

From what I've seen it mainly comprises right now of:
Quote:
Which means Smoke Pot is just so much wasted ink on a card. It's a Blue Button with no range, so by your assumption it must self-target. However, it's Burst 1, not Wave 1, so it must be used with a Ranged action. And since the only Range the Flinger has is Missile 6, which you believe to be a misprint, it can't be used with that, either.


aaaand
Quote:
Wait wait, I think I recall an official ruling stating that smoke cannot actually stop attacks with range like burst or breath. Thus, even if you cannot see the unit, if you can legally target somebody and the area of effect includes them, they are hit.


Anyone else feel free to add more if I've missed it o.o


June 28th, 2012, 10:04 pm
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