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Minion
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Holy Cross wrote:
I’m definitely not saying that they deserve a permanent pass. I’m saying that during the course of this Kickstarter they got really big, really fast. Their learning curve has been steep and I believe they’ve learned a lot (like not to use Kickstarter for this big of a project, as John Cadice has publicly said already).

Keep in mind were just talking about a single mini here, this isn't the Legends project. I can't imagine that the company or the complexity of producing an individual mini has grown exponentially since they took pre-orders through the end of February.

Holy Cross wrote:
You’re right that everyone has a straw. Mine would come eventually if, say they learned nothing from this KS and made the same mistakes all over again. Or they failed to deliver. NOT Sweetheart Candy being delayed a couple of weeks due to unforeseen demand.

I don't want to get TOO deep into Legends discussion here, because this thread is about Sweet Tooth, Sugar Fairy, Mistress Cavity, or whatever you want to call her, lol. I'm not actually convinced that they did learn good lessons. It seems to me that the lesson they've learned is that if you don't launch a project in Kickstarter, you don't have to worry about people being "toxic" toward you in public where potential business partners can see it. That's almost more concerning.

Holy Cross wrote:
As for EVERY company being ‘sinister’, I’d say every company needs steady income to keep the lights on. If that’s sinister to you then the world must be a scary place.

I too am in this camp. I've said before, and I'll reiterate, SPM does not strike me as a sinister company. I think they employ some people who are very passionate about what they do and what they create. SPM is a company that, I think, employs a lot of good people. I do wonder if there aren't one or two people who perhaps knowingly make some less than awesome decisions, but that doesn't make the company or even those people evil or bad. I like SPM, and that's the reason I hold them to the same standard as any other company... They should be honest and up front with their customers about timelines, delays, and other major changes/effects to the products they've promised their consumers. That shouldn't be such a big thing to ask, and the fact that people rather constantly excuse that is kind of troublesome -then again, the people who seem intent to hunt them down at conventions or harass then personally via social media are ALSO troublesome and need to back down. You can be frustrated without being spiteful or directly harassing them, and you can be a fan without being a doormat or beating people with your cheerleader pompoms at the first sign of a dissenting opinion. I always try to hear the logic on both sides of things, and I would say that @HolyCross does a pretty good job as well.

@sleepy_laughter
No one is calling anything a binding contract here unless I've missed something. But they did send out an email, which I quoted above, that said DELIVERY in April. It was originally written in bold red letters in that email. That email was received less than twelve hours before pre-orders closed.

Saying "It was April. Now that April is basically over, it's May." puts us rather uncomfortably back into the same position that many backers are in over their Kickstarter projects. I wanted to support this company, and do something that would help them along while waiting for those projects to ship, but it seems like the same old shenanigans -but the same justifications don't really work for something like this. SPM has produced a LOT of resin minis, they know how long it takes. If pre-orders were high, they could have had the factory start producing what was already paid for around mid month. If anything, some customers would have gotten their mini sooner. It just looks like the same old patterns all over again.


April 29th, 2018, 4:46 pm
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Minion
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Holy Cross wrote:
I’m definitely not saying that they deserve a permanent pass. I’m saying that during the course of this Kickstarter they got really big, really fast. Their learning curve has been steep and I believe they’ve learned a lot (like not to use Kickstarter for this big of a project, as John Cadice has publicly said already).


The problem there is, it's not their first Rodeo. I've already said it before, and I'll say it again. Ninja All Stars was a bigger project, funded with less money and, while it still releasedlate, it was still a more timely delivery than Legends was. If anything they had a hole to fil already that was left by NAS's less than stellar retail release and Kickstarter performance. After that not working in FK Kickstarter, one could already assume they're going backwards. Technically, even joining up with Paizo was a somewhat desperate misstep, so realisticaly, they've been backpeddaling for a while. The smartest move they made on legends originally was the "bundle deal" were add- ons were at a minimum to reduce missing orders and components. To me, that one direction was a logistical godsend, but alas.. ^ ^'

Holy Cross wrote:
You’re right that everyone has a straw. Mine would come eventually if, say they learned nothing from this KS and made the same mistakes all over again. Or they failed to deliver. NOT Sweetheart Candy being delayed a couple of weeks due to unforeseen demand.


Even if the demand was unforseen, I agree with Dan on: they should've let people know. I understand they're a skeleton crew, but it can't take but 2 seconds to write out an official statement on their email catalog.


Holy Cross wrote:
As for EVERY company being ‘sinister’, I’d say every company needs steady income to keep the lights on. If that’s sinister to you then the world must be a scary place.


The world IS a scary place! Just turn the news on everyday and you can see at least 5 scary things going on. :3
As for businesses being sinsiter. A business by it's design exists only to make money. Nothing more, nothing less. It cares for the consumer only as long as it obtains money, and doesn't care whether it's practices benefit or harm others. The purpose of the money is irrelevant, what it produces is irrelevant. Whether it succeeds or fails, at the end of the day, is whether or not it makes money. That is pretty !SODA! sinister to me. 3:


April 29th, 2018, 8:18 pm
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Minion
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I'm honestly hoping we see these things in May... But I get the feeling we would have heard something by now if it were shipping out in the next week or two. This whole passive aggressive approval of "making a random statement in some random group on Facebook" has gotten tiresome.


April 29th, 2018, 10:24 pm
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prodigal_dreamer wrote:
As for businesses being sinsiter. A business by it's design exists only to make money. Nothing more, nothing less. It cares for the consumer only as long as it obtains money, and doesn't care whether it's practices benefit or harm others. The purpose of the money is irrelevant, what it produces is irrelevant. Whether it succeeds or fails, at the end of the day, is whether or not it makes money. That is pretty !SODA! sinister to me. 3:


I say bollocks to that, and here's why:

SPM had every opportunity to make their money and call it good. Give us our plastic-crack, continue with mediocre FK rules and meet the obligation. But did they? Nay!

They wanted to make SDE better. They put beta rules out there for the fans/backers to test. Those rules were found lacking so they developed better rules, all the while listening to fan feedback, until the rules worked. (and I know these rules are amazing because I have playtested them extensively).

Hiring Justin cost them money, prolonging development cost them money, delaying fulfillment costs them more money. They will most likely make LESS money off this project than if they'd just printed plastic and gave us the same tired rules we already had. At this point the "cash-grab" argument is lost on me.

it's my opinion that right, wrong, or indifferent, ND/SPM are doing something they love and money (the world's most necessary evil) is something they need to fuel it. As for how I justify my opinion, I believe they lost money by making SDE/L better, but chose to give us the product they feel we deserve, vice pumping out more plastic quick-fast-and in a hurry. Nothing about this KS screams easy-money/easy way out. They have made their own lives harder (and less profitable) in an attempt to give us something better.


April 30th, 2018, 2:50 am
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Minion
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Holy Cross wrote:
prodigal_dreamer wrote:
As for businesses being sinsiter. A business by it's design exists only to make money. Nothing more, nothing less. It cares for the consumer only as long as it obtains money, and doesn't care whether it's practices benefit or harm others. The purpose of the money is irrelevant, what it produces is irrelevant. Whether it succeeds or fails, at the end of the day, is whether or not it makes money. That is pretty !SODA! sinister to me. 3:


I say bollocks to that, and here's why:

SPM had every opportunity to make their money and call it good. Give us our plastic-crack, continue with mediocre FK rules and meet the obligation. But did they? Nay!

They wanted to make SDE better. They put beta rules out there for the fans/backers to test. Those rules were found lacking so they developed better rules, all the while listening to fan feedback, until the rules worked. (and I know these rules are amazing because I have playtested them extensively).

Hiring Justin cost them money, prolonging development cost them money, delaying fulfillment costs them more money. They will most likely make LESS money off this project than if they'd just printed plastic and gave us the same tired rules we already had. At this point the "cash-grab" argument is lost on me.

it's my opinion that right, wrong, or indifferent, ND/SPM are doing something they love and money (the world's most necessary evil) is something they need to fuel it. As for how I justify my opinion, I believe they lost money by making SDE/L better, but chose to give us the product they feel we deserve, vice pumping out more plastic quick-fast-and in a hurry. Nothing about this KS screams easy-money/easy way out. They have made their own lives harder (and less profitable) in an attempt to give us something better.


Fair point, but I'll rebuttal with this: They didn't offer SDE for free did they?

To be more specific, when they first developed SDE with CMON, by themselves, however, whenever it was concieved, they didn't say: "We should release this to the public, they'd love this" and put the rules online for free. When they decided to break away from CMON, they didn't become independant game designers working freelance, they wanted to start a company and make money themselves. And from that point on, everything they did became about forwarding the company: promotion, game testing, development, etc, it was all in the name of forwarding the company.

When they moved their studio to a bigger office, was that not in the best interest of the company to make money? they could have stayed small, developed our game and went about their business. They could've stayed Sodapop miniatures instead of trying to be a publisher of other games and just focused on producing their own stuff. But no, they wanted to be bigger, and in turn, make more money. Which is the point of a company. They're not philanthropic, that's not what companies exist to be. Otherwise, they'd be a passtime or a charity, and even charities are technically businesses.


April 30th, 2018, 3:57 am
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prodigal_dreamer wrote:
Holy Cross wrote:
prodigal_dreamer wrote:
As for businesses being sinsiter. A business by it's design exists only to make money. Nothing more, nothing less. It cares for the consumer only as long as it obtains money, and doesn't care whether it's practices benefit or harm others. The purpose of the money is irrelevant, what it produces is irrelevant. Whether it succeeds or fails, at the end of the day, is whether or not it makes money. That is pretty !SODA! sinister to me. 3:


I say bollocks to that, and here's why:

SPM had every opportunity to make their money and call it good. Give us our plastic-crack, continue with mediocre FK rules and meet the obligation. But did they? Nay!

They wanted to make SDE better. They put beta rules out there for the fans/backers to test. Those rules were found lacking so they developed better rules, all the while listening to fan feedback, until the rules worked. (and I know these rules are amazing because I have playtested them extensively).

Hiring Justin cost them money, prolonging development cost them money, delaying fulfillment costs them more money. They will most likely make LESS money off this project than if they'd just printed plastic and gave us the same tired rules we already had. At this point the "cash-grab" argument is lost on me.

it's my opinion that right, wrong, or indifferent, ND/SPM are doing something they love and money (the world's most necessary evil) is something they need to fuel it. As for how I justify my opinion, I believe they lost money by making SDE/L better, but chose to give us the product they feel we deserve, vice pumping out more plastic quick-fast-and in a hurry. Nothing about this KS screams easy-money/easy way out. They have made their own lives harder (and less profitable) in an attempt to give us something better.


Fair point, but I'll rebuttal with this: They didn't offer SDE for free did they?

To be more specific, when they first developed SDE with CMON, by themselves, however, whenever it was concieved, they didn't say: "We should release this to the public, they'd love this" and put the rules online for free. When they decided to break away from CMON, they didn't become independant game designers working freelance, they wanted to start a company and make money themselves. And from that point on, everything they did became about forwarding the company: promotion, game testing, development, etc, it was all in the name of forwarding the company.

When they moved their studio to a bigger office, was that not in the best interest of the company to make money? they could have stayed small, developed our game and went about their business. They could've stayed Sodapop miniatures instead of trying to be a publisher of other games and just focused on producing their own stuff. But no, they wanted to be bigger, and in turn, make more money. Which is the point of a company. They're not philanthropic, that's not what companies exist to be. Otherwise, they'd be a passtime or a charity, and even charities are technically businesses.



So basically you expect something for nothing? And that anything less is sinister/greedy/only in it for the money?

You're also adhering to 'SPM only cares about money, otherwise they'd give everything away for free'?

...Asking for a friend.


April 30th, 2018, 4:50 am
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TheHandsomeDan wrote:
Look at any gaming related Kickstarter project in the last year -if you check their day by day updates, you'll see that they actually see very little boost in that final 24 hours. That goes for big ticket items like, say the Legends campaign in 2015, as well as smaller items like card games. In fact, most Kickstarter projects tend to see the biggest movement in the FIRST 48 hours.


Image

Huh, seems like a lot of movement at the end. This is the trend I see in all Kickstarter projects I follow.


April 30th, 2018, 11:49 am
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Minion
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In light of your graph, I edited my comment to verify my math. Nice screen grab.
But I thought it was funny that you chose not to do the "daily data" view.

You see the DAILY DATA view shows how much was actually made PER DAY which tends to look a bit different than something like a progress chart, which can be very deceptive to look at on it's own -but hey, that's why Kicktraq provides such a handy set of different graphs and data, right?

But the Daily Data view shows a much clearer picture. It tells us that the final day made $147,105. Now, that's between 2-3x the average daily take, which is admirable... But it's also approximately 11.4% of their total take for the campaign. So, a boost, but not that incredible boost people seem to think it is. By comparison, the first day made $324,694. The data, which as you say is very similar in most projects, only proves my point.


As for previous comments, and in support of @HolyCross conversation:

Even a non-profit or charitable business wants to make money, what they do with it at the end of the day may vary (a lot less than most people think), but they're a business seeking money just like anyone else... Otherwise they aren't a "business".

Goodwill seeks donations, sells things in storefronts and online. One of the many ways they "give back" is by employing otherwise unemployable or difficult to employ people to work their thrift operation, which both compounds their tax write-off potential and feeds back into their own income. Goodwill makes money. They value their bottom dollar immensely. Is it because they're greedy, or because they want to give back to s certain portion of the community? At the end of the day it's both, one supports the other.

Businesses that don't actually want a profit cease to exist. And let's be honest here, this is basically an offshoot of the toys and entertainment markets... Would you honestly expect those markets to exist in some healthy way without being greedy? We wouldn't have Pokemon, Ninja Turtles, G.I.Joe, Barbie, He-Man, or the Video Game consoles we enjoy today if not for corporate greed. What, is SPM/ND supposed to be different because they're newer? Nobody gets into the mass produced games industry so they can work full time, listen to us complain at them day in and day out, and then give away the results of their work for free. The notion is ridiculous. They haven't claimed to be a non-profit, it's not like they've hidden this behind an elaborate curtain. The point is moot, we all knew they were for-profit going in, none of us forgot, and it was never a secret.


Last edited by TheHandsomeDan on April 30th, 2018, 12:59 pm, edited 3 times in total.



April 30th, 2018, 12:12 pm
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pretty much gotta agree with ya Danny. No matter how much a company might love to do stuff and bring out a product, money is needed. simple as that.

Though this is kinda getting far off topic about Candy ^_^

I personally would have loved to see an e-mail saying about a delay to customers, should be fine under DPA and good customer service.. which SPM have never been fantastic with.. They higher a new marketing manger a couple of years back, not sure how that's going but oh well.. Either way, when people ask about the delay for Candy, they seam to be getting the reply and reason. So that's nice and simple.

My wait is annoying but I hope it turns out well.

Oh, for anyone interested and hasn't ordered it.. despite being limited, and in fact, maybe ONE of the reasons for the delay, Archonia (UK online shop) has gotten some Sweetheart Candies for Pre-order still (29.80 Euros.. no clue what that is in English).

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April 30th, 2018, 12:21 pm
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I do have faith that Sweet Tooth, I mean Sugar Plum, I mean Delicious Delilah, or was it Luscious Sweetmeat* (yeah, that sounds right) will be delivered. And I have faith that she'll be a solid resin miniature that those of us who pre-ordered are happy with. I truly have no doubt of that. Whether or not she'll feel like she was worth the $20 base price PLUS the shipping cost, which totalled just under $30 for delivery here in the states... That much is to be seen. I looked at it as "I'll do a decent paint job (even if the level of detail makes me want to claw my eyes out), and if I still don't like her I'm sure I'll have little trouble selling a well-painted limited run resin miniature for at least what I paid originally. Granted, for my time I'm hoping that I DO end up deciding to keep her, but it's a fallback so that I'm not wasting my money otherwise.






*=Okay, in my defense, I went to thesaurus.com, looked up "Sweet" and looked up "Candy", and when I saw the combination of Luscious and Sweetmeat appear, I just couldn't contain my facetious glee. That's thesaurus.com, not Urban Dictionary or any other slang site. Really.
#LusciousSweetmeat #VivaLaLusciousSweetmeat


April 30th, 2018, 12:56 pm
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for UK, the price is about $33.99 (£25 approx.) which while a bit on the higher end, isn't amazingly bad for such a thing. Though I used some ninja points on her so $25.99 (£19).. just checked, from Archonia, the price works out as £26 but I don't know if that includes shipping. The Average UK price of a Plastic Booster for SD is about £11-£14. So for the resin, that's on par for the course really.

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April 30th, 2018, 1:07 pm
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Very interesting. I mean no offense to you in saying this, but as I understand it a lot of games in the UK (or even most of Europe?) are unfortunately accustomed to some pretty unfortunate costs for a lot of American developed and/or Chinese manufactured games. I'd be curious as to what the average cost of some other popular gaming products looks like for you, just for a more detailed comparison, I mean I'm a numbers guy after all. ^_^

I haven't looked at Luscious Sweetmeat's card in detail yet, I'm actually holding off intentionally, I don't want to read her stats and abilities until I'm ready to sit down and try her in an actual gameplay session. Sometimes they end up functioning a little differently than you might expect based on the card alone; an ability role might be a lot more handy than it sounds, a particular stat might not make it as overpowered as you initially thought. If she's fun to play, I'll deal with the fact that she's perhaps a little much for my tastes visually.

Here's hoping that I get to do that in May. ^_^


April 30th, 2018, 1:23 pm
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TheHandsomeDan wrote:
Very interesting. I mean no offense to you in saying this, but as I understand it a lot of games in the UK (or even most of Europe?) are unfortunately accustomed to some pretty unfortunate costs for a lot of American developed and/or Chinese manufactured games. I'd be curious as to what the average cost of some other popular gaming products looks like for you, just for a more detailed comparison, I mean I'm a numbers guy after all. ^_^


As an immigrant I can attest to this. I was born, and grew up in New Zealand. I moved to the United States in 2001 (I was 18 then) and was a bit shocked at how much cheaper everything was.

Here's a point of reference for gaming expenses (It's in NZD, so keep in mind New Zealand's average annual salary is NZD 49k/year, and minimum wage is NZD $16.50/hour) https://www.ebgames.co.nz/


April 30th, 2018, 1:37 pm
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Danny: Candy's card is pretty nice.. A great healer really. Which products do you want to go for to do a test for pricing?

Cross: minimum wage is 16.50? that's about £8.50, which is about £1 more then the UK. and yet.. I think that average yearly income is a bit lower... odd in a way..

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April 30th, 2018, 2:08 pm
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ManicMan wrote:
Danny: Candy's card is pretty nice.. A great healer really. Which products do you want to go for to do a test for pricing?

Cross: minimum wage is 16.50? that's about £8.50, which is about £1 more then the UK. and yet.. I think that average yearly income is a bit lower... odd in a way..


Interestingly the average minimum wage in the US is lower, but the average annual salary is much higher. There’s a lot that plays into it though.


April 30th, 2018, 2:13 pm
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problem with averages is the amount of people is a MAJOR factor too. even if you work it out via percentages. Also there is.. I can't remember the name for it but basically work ethic.. some groups work less paid hours for either reasons of that's the average they do, or cause of other reasons.. can't remember the right words there..

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April 30th, 2018, 2:27 pm
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Minion
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TheHandsomeDan wrote:
In light of your graph, I edited my comment to verify my math. Nice screen grab.
But I thought it was funny that you chose not to do the "daily data" view.

You see the DAILY DATA view shows how much was actually made PER DAY which tends to look a bit different than something like a progress chart, which can be very deceptive to look at on it's own -but hey, that's why Kicktraq provides such a handy set of different graphs and data, right?

But the Daily Data view shows a much clearer picture. It tells us that the final day made $147,105. Now, that's between 2-3x the average daily take, which is admirable... But it's also approximately 11.4% of their total take for the campaign. So, a boost, but not that incredible boost people seem to think it is. By comparison, the first day made $324,694. The data, which as you say is very similar in most projects, only proves my point.


Daily Data view can also be very deceptively used to support one's arguement (intentional or not). It is per day and not necessarily the last 24 hours. Which is what you were mentioning in your earlier post. I don't think anyone can argue that most Kickstarter projects get the most funding in the very beginning and at the very end. If your point was to say the last 24 hours of Kickstarter campaign gets only "a very little boost"...what is "very little" for you is "quite big" for others. It is a very subjective opinion, and I disagree with what you consider to be "a very little boost."


April 30th, 2018, 2:32 pm
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prodigal_dreamer wrote:
As for businesses being sinsiter. A business by it's design exists only to make money. Nothing more, nothing less. It cares for the consumer only as long as it obtains money, and doesn't care whether it's practices benefit or harm others. The purpose of the money is irrelevant, what it produces is irrelevant. Whether it succeeds or fails, at the end of the day, is whether or not it makes money. That is pretty !SODA! sinister to me. 3:

Out of curiosity, do you have a job? Do they pay you money at your job? Would you show up to work if they did not pay you money at your job? Do you believe somehow that the company could still pay you money if they did not make money?

I'm just curious whether we're debating 'business = sinister' with a high-school freshman whose parents pay his bills or an egalitarian hippie living under a bridge and stealing wifi.


April 30th, 2018, 3:31 pm
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TheHandsomeDan wrote:
I do have faith that Sweet Tooth, I mean Sugar Plum, I mean Delicious Delilah, or was it Luscious Sweetmeat* (yeah, that sounds right) will be delivered. And I have faith that she'll be a solid resin miniature that those of us who pre-ordered are happy with. I truly have no doubt of that. Whether or not she'll feel like she was worth the $20 base price PLUS the shipping cost, which totalled just under $30 for delivery here in the states... That much is to be seen. I looked at it as "I'll do a decent paint job (even if the level of detail makes me want to claw my eyes out), and if I still don't like her I'm sure I'll have little trouble selling a well-painted limited run resin miniature for at least what I paid originally. Granted, for my time I'm hoping that I DO end up deciding to keep her, but it's a fallback so that I'm not wasting my money otherwise.






*=Okay, in my defense, I went to thesaurus.com, looked up "Sweet" and looked up "Candy", and when I saw the combination of Luscious and Sweetmeat appear, I just couldn't contain my facetious glee. That's thesaurus.com, not Urban Dictionary or any other slang site. Really.
#LusciousSweetmeat #VivaLaLusciousSweetmeat


I nominate this post for the Best Post About Sexy Plastic category. Because of how much I loved it.


April 30th, 2018, 3:34 pm
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so maybe back to facts.

Sweetheart Candy was advertised for an April Delivery. The product page still says anticipated delivery is April 2018.

https://sodapopminiatures.com/index.php/news/limited-edition-sweetheart-candy.html

Image


The latest 'official'ish' communication I'm aware of is a FB comment response indicating early May. There isn't clarification, but assumption is shipping due to the question.
https://www.facebook.com/sodapopminiatures/

Image

===============================

Whether there is/isn't anything sinister is subjective/lacking proof, yes?

The fact is that SPM did not meet their anticipated delivery date and have not yet missed their next, anticipated shipping timeframe.

I'm not sure any of the analysis of KS/ebay/auction funding (although cool and I'm grateful you guys are smart enough to have a discussion and I'm hopefully smart enough to kind of follow) is relevant.

I know they're not amazon. Despite being one of the first to pull the trigger on Tusk Raider, an in stock item, it still took awhile to ship it.

Order (placed on March 1, 2018 7:09:59 PM MST)
Shipment notification received March 5.
Marked as Shipped on March 6.
Received March 8/9 (not 100% sure b/c my wife got the mail :)) >> emails to SPM complaining about the base ensues!

Based on this, even if they get the product in, expect it will still take time to ship it.


April 30th, 2018, 4:59 pm
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