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 What's the future of SPM after the Kickstarters? 
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Mini-Boss
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The re-write was suggested by a vocal group of posters on this forum.


January 31st, 2018, 2:41 pm
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Denizen
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Imriel wrote:
The re-write was suggested by a vocal group of posters on this forum.

Yep, that's what I was going to say. SPM can't fire the people who wanted to rewrite the rules, because those people weren't employees. They were fans. Maybe not everyone wanted a rewrite, but a lot did.

For my money, I also believe a rewrite was a good move. Slowed us way down, made us more than a year overdue to get anything, but the game will be better. I can easily balance my desire to have it now versus my desire to have it better.


January 31st, 2018, 5:49 pm
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SuperHappyTime wrote:
It pains me to say it, but my fears are now just apathetic acceptance.

1. Fire the guy who suggested you rewrite the rules. You could already have had another expansion going with the rules fixes right now. If he can’t be fired, he should step down. If he isn’t with the company anymore, good.


I’m glad I’m not the only person who disagrees with the above statement. I’ve playtested the new rules twice already and the game is waaaay better. Arcade mode stands alone as a good game. The game is well paced, well balanced, challenging and exciting (if not a bit brutal). My wife and I were about to finish a 4 hero game on a weeknight last night (that would’ve been unheard of in Forgotten King).

Forgotten King was not only “far from perfect”, it was a hot mess. The game dragged on forever. Loot was so plentiful it was no longer rewarding to get it by the time the game was halfway through. I could never finish a game with any group I tried to introduce the game to. The rules re-write was 100% necessary.

Without it, this release would be just more of the same.

I did a write up on my playthroughs so far on a seperate thread. The new rules are great and I wholeheartedly recommend playtesting them using the PDFs SPM has put out.


January 31st, 2018, 6:40 pm
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Mini-Boss
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I am happy with the rewrite. I think they have a very difficult decision to make, and both options were going to leave people upset.

Option one was to leave the rules as is. While that would have gotten us the game quicker, the longevity of the game might suffer. The rules as they were in Forgotten King were all right... but things would get stale fast. Especially Arcade Mode, which seemed to just be tacked on.

Option two was a complete overhaul of the rules. This would delay the project, but hopefully set a new foundation for all other releases to build on. Both Classic and Arcade got revamped, with the latter being greatly improved.

I think number two was the best option to take, but it still had its hardships. Obviously we are still waiting on it all. We also don't know how much the Legends rewrites and Deke's health delayed things too. As someone who has written and ran D&D campaigns, it can be a very long and daunting process.


January 31st, 2018, 9:09 pm
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@Eternaldream, Stale is an excellent adjective for Forgotten King. There was a great core concept that got lost in the mix of poor rules balance and a lack of streamlining.


January 31st, 2018, 9:16 pm
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We needed these new rules. We needed spm to understanded they had to hire someone and we were lucky with Justin.

Can you play with unprofessional rules after paying that much money ? Not me.


February 2nd, 2018, 5:37 pm
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I am hoping that they drop Kickstarter as a platform. Even some of CMoN Kickstarters for their off-shoot projects have been slower to roll, despite their rock-start delivery practices. (Hate will probably break $1M, but it has been surprisingly slow, kind of like watching Rum & Bones 2nd Tide lose steam and not unlock everything). I would like SPM to lean into their faster delivery turn-around products. They need to show that they are willing to pump out a quality, finished product with Unicast with a base-game (Von Drak 2.0!) and move away from the early-adopter incentive over-promise that Kickstarters tend to drift towards.


February 3rd, 2018, 4:08 am
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I would still hope them to use KS platform, but in more limited manner. Max. 2 concurrent projects and the latter should be close to deliver before starting a new one. I personally would like to avoid supporting a project if creator has too many different projects on-going on Kickstarter platform. I probably only support one of them (like Super Dungeon Legends) and for "safety reasons" ignore the rest. Not wanting to have too many eggs in one basket.

Projects from SPM I'm interested in after Legends are:

1. Ninja All-Stars (2nd Edition) - rewrite project with different dice mechanics and upgrade packs in pledge (ok to be honest I need to try the 1st edition at some point with other people, but I think I would prefer a dice system along the lines of Imperial Assault/Arcadia Quest).

2. Super Dungeon Asian Continent. I think Pirates was planned next which I may skip.

3. Super Dungeon Epic (or other name) - A new official variant that resembles the original pitch of Legends. Existing heroes and monsters would be used as is. Instead of using spawning points there could be reinforcements. Should work with both Explore and Arcade cards and base rules. It would be something very similar to Descent (2nd edition) or Imperial Assault. Also see this: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=14448#p94657


February 3rd, 2018, 7:16 am
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Chozo Tull wrote:
We needed these new rules. We needed spm to understanded they had to hire someone and we were lucky with Justin.

Can you play with unprofessional rules after paying that much money ? Not me.


I am not sure that I agree with you. Not that I think Forgotten King was any good, but consider that Super Dungeon Explore caught on based on it's first set of rules. Sure, there were problems with the first set of rules, and what we were promised with FK was a streamlined version. What we got was an atrocity.

All they needed to do was go back and revisit their original rules again and see how it needed to be revised so that the rules were clear and the unnecessary fat was trimmed.

I gave up on playtesting the betas on the new sets by Justin because they have made the same mistakes they have made with Forgotten Kind in that they are making the rules even more complicated, when they should be looking to streamline them.

I mean, that is what they promised us in the first place.

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February 4th, 2018, 4:31 am
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Spazzfist wrote:
Chozo Tull wrote:
We needed these new rules. We needed spm to understanded they had to hire someone and we were lucky with Justin.

Can you play with unprofessional rules after paying that much money ? Not me.


I am not sure that I agree with you. Not that I think Forgotten King was any good, but consider that Super Dungeon Explore caught on based on it's first set of rules. Sure, there were problems with the first set of rules, and what we were promised with FK was a streamlined version. What we got was an atrocity.

All they needed to do was go back and revisit their original rules again and see how it needed to be revised so that the rules were clear and the unnecessary fat was trimmed.

I gave up on playtesting the betas on the new sets by Justin because they have made the same mistakes they have made with Forgotten Kind in that they are making the rules even more complicated, when they should be looking to streamline them.

I mean, that is what they promised us in the first place.


Have you played the final set of rules that was released? They are far superior to SDE 1.0 and Forgotten King. I've played 3 games using the new rules and Arcade Mode so far and I wholeheartedly agree with Chozo Tull. The new ruleset is streamlined, loot is rewarding all the way to the very end, the heroes are constantly challenged, and the game takes around 90-150 mins to play.

I'd strongly encourage anyone to try these new rules before passing judgement.


February 4th, 2018, 8:32 am
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True. The different beta versions went in completely different directions. While your Lootimeter idea is good too, the new Arcade mode is especially good and challenging.


February 4th, 2018, 9:04 pm
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Holy Cross wrote:
Have you played the final set of rules that was released? They are far superior to SDE 1.0 and Forgotten King. I've played 3 games using the new rules and Arcade Mode so far and I wholeheartedly agree with Chozo Tull. The new ruleset is streamlined, loot is rewarding all the way to the very end, the heroes are constantly challenged, and the game takes around 90-150 mins to play.

I'd strongly encourage anyone to try these new rules before passing judgement.


No, I will admit that I have not tried the latest rules. Like I said, there were so many betas and so many things which seemed to be adding more band aids to the problem, which were just making it more clunky. Eventually, I just gave up. To my mind every Beta was just getting worse rather than better. I had a couple of big issues with the rules that I was seeing:

1) It seemed like Deke had some ideas that were not great, but he was insisting that Justin shoehorn in there (I am referring foremost to the Critical Hits)

2) The more the bandaids were applied to the rules, the less it looked (or felt) like the old 8/16 bit video games from which the game pulls its inspiration. that was totally unacceptable to me.

But on your recommendation, I will take another look at the rules.

EDIT - on that note, can somebody send me a link or at least let me know what the latest version of the Beta is called? I looked on the special forum, but there are so many files there, that I could not find anything about the current ruleset. Thanks

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February 5th, 2018, 3:41 pm
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https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/so ... ts/2085356

^^Here ya go.

Best version of Super Dungeon Explore yet IMO. Let me know how it plays out for you.

Also, ...I think... these are the final rules. Critical hits are still in there, but I felt they streamlined the game, especially once you had enough loot/treasure to reliably roll them.


February 5th, 2018, 4:49 pm
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InfinityMax wrote:
Imriel wrote:
The re-write was suggested by a vocal group of posters on this forum.

Yep, that's what I was going to say. SPM can't fire the people who wanted to rewrite the rules, because those people weren't employees. They were fans. Maybe not everyone wanted a rewrite, but a lot did.

For my money, I also believe a rewrite was a good move. Slowed us way down, made us more than a year overdue to get anything, but the game will be better. I can easily balance my desire to have it now versus my desire to have it better.



This is basically the business model that Kingdom Death has used- crazy late, but they got the game right.

It has seemed to work well for them, while I think the FK rules could have used some additional tweaking.


Spazzfist wrote:
No, I will admit that I have not tried the latest rules. Like I said, there were so many betas and so many things which seemed to be adding more band aids to the problem, which were just making it more clunky. Eventually, I just gave up. To my mind every Beta was just getting worse rather than better. I had a couple of big issues with the rules that I was seeing:

1) It seemed like Deke had some ideas that were not great, but he was insisting that Justin shoehorn in there (I am referring foremost to the Critical Hits)

2) The more the bandaids were applied to the rules, the less it looked (or felt) like the old 8/16 bit video games from which the game pulls its inspiration. that was totally unacceptable to me.

But on your recommendation, I will take another look at the rules.



Well, Deke did a bunch of rounds of bandaiding- each solution added a new problem, and he didn't seem like he was getting anywhere (he admits as much).

The Justin headed version of the rules are much better. They're WAY streamlined from the FK rules, and play much better.

I agree that these rules represent the best SDE has ever been.

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March 1st, 2018, 7:13 pm
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odinsgrandson wrote:
I agree that these rules represent the best SDE has ever been.


I will come back on and say that I know I have been a negative Nancy in the previous replies on this thread, so let me come on now and say that I agree with what Odinsgrandson and Holy Cross are saying that these rules are the best that SPM has done.

I have played a few games now, and am really enjoying them. Now, my experience is limited to the Arcade mode of the game, so I do not have any opinion on the Classic version. But based on Arcade, I am cautiously optimistic.

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March 1st, 2018, 8:51 pm
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I haven't played Classic much, but I can tell you there is more of a drive for the heroes to push forward. Not as much as in the original version though. I still remember slicing through hordes of Kobolds that never stop coming.... I shudder at the thought....


March 1st, 2018, 10:32 pm
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Spazzfist wrote:
odinsgrandson wrote:
I agree that these rules represent the best SDE has ever been.


I will come back on and say that I know I have been a negative Nancy in the previous replies on this thread, so let me come on now and say that I agree with what Odinsgrandson and Holy Cross are saying that these rules are the best that SPM has done.

I have played a few games now, and am really enjoying them. Now, my experience is limited to the Arcade mode of the game, so I do not have any opinion on the Classic version. But based on Arcade, I am cautiously optimistic.


you have mentioned that critical hits weren't working for you in the Betas, are you playing with the now? I have mixed feelings about them and am just wondering on other people's experiences

thanks!


March 2nd, 2018, 5:58 pm
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I only plan to play Arcade since I prefer Co-op PvE experiences so only heroes deal critical success wounds, but then there isn't a Consul defense roll where they can flub their roll. Basically, a Critical Success in Arcade only adds to the Hero's power level and to balance it, you only add ARM or Sturdy to the Mobs. I expect it plays differently in Classic where it can be extra punishing t roll poorly for defense and thus increases the value of ARM to avoid being Critically hit. For Arcade, it can encourage glass cannon builds b/c you can potentially manage the Arcade Mob's targets and there are several challenges that force you to use a non-ARM stat for defense anyways.

For Arcade, I really enjoy the mechanic. It definitely adds more value to ST unique actions b/c extra dice not just means better chance of a hit, but also of a CS so I don't feel like I am wasting the action and Hero compared to bringing an AOE hero. The flip side is that AOE heroes can become monsters if they CS on AOE, but the tradeoff is they will usually never be able to shed the wrath b/f the consul turn has a chance for reprisal (unless they kill everything, which has largely been the strategy I've been using).

It's also really satisfying from the perspective of rolling 10 stars vs. 3 or 4 stars when trying to wound elites - gives it more meaning and helps offset the flubs when you roll 7 dice and roll 0 stars. It can help speed up mopping up mobs b/f MMC +1ARM shows up since that pushes the usual 5 stars to CS to 6 on most elites and 8 stars for mini-bosses.

Hero Average is considered 3B (based on FS KS SPM updates), which is a 2 star avg and 6 star max. I like that this means even if I get complete crap for loot, heroes can still have a reasonable chance at critting elites/minions which is necessary to get the loot to handle the bosses. Getting to a 5 star average is 4B2R, which generally means a 2-3 pieces of loot/treasure, which I think is appropriate, but also means a 14 star max, which will crit even bosses.

To CS Bosses with 4-5 ARM, you'd need 8-10 stars, which means at a minimum 4B/1B2R/2G for 8 star and 5B/2B2R/3B1G for 10 star, so if you had completely crap loot, many heroes could potentially hit these # of stars and it gives them a fighting chance even if they have crap gear. To get avg 8-10 star, you need 4-5G or corresponding combination, which is technically possible, but at that point, you're probably winning by a landslide unless you are doing hard mode.


March 2nd, 2018, 7:59 pm
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Squirrel wrote:
you have mentioned that critical hits weren't working for you in the Betas, are you playing with the now? I have mixed feelings about them and am just wondering on other people's experiences


Funny you should ask, because in the last game I had played I found myself hoping for crits on a couple of occasions and caught myself at that moment, given how opposed I had been to them previously! :P

The betas were a series of adding a lot of gears and cogs, which in my opinion, were making the game more sluggish, where I envisioned the solution to be more streamlined. But I will give Justin his credit, because the finished product meshes all the gear nicely to an excellent product.

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March 2nd, 2018, 10:42 pm
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Spazzfist wrote:
Squirrel wrote:
you have mentioned that critical hits weren't working for you in the Betas, are you playing with the now? I have mixed feelings about them and am just wondering on other people's experiences


Funny you should ask, because in the last game I had played I found myself hoping for crits on a couple of occasions and caught myself at that moment, given how opposed I had been to them previously! :P

The betas were a series of adding a lot of gears and cogs, which in my opinion, were making the game more sluggish, where I envisioned the solution to be more streamlined. But I will give Justin his credit, because the finished product meshes all the gear nicely to an excellent product.


We see the crits very infrequently...maybe 10%...but they have added epic memories (akin to rolling a 20 in D&D) for some truly memorable situations. I would agree with Spazz emphatically...if Justin is truly off for personal affairs, SPM/ND should reach out to him when appropriate and offer him genuine thanks...and to come back anytime. On that, if any Mods are reading, please offer the sincere thanks to him, and our best wishes for his family.


March 3rd, 2018, 1:59 am
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