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 The Rage on Legends - a possible solution? 
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Minion
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There is a lot of rage right now about how legends is not compatible with SDE/Arcade and isn't what people thought they were backing... Listen to the poeple SPM and consider this...

Is there not a way in which they can turn this around to be compatible with Super Dungeon Explore/Arcade?

They have expressed the levels as being C<B<A<S<X<XS (or some such stupid nonsense (to me at least)) and so we have 6 levels of character. If the issue is power creep cant we just consider full SDE characters as complete and go downwards instead of up.

Start with a stripped back character with one action point, reduced hearts, reduced movement and a low number of dice and build a granular leveling system which sees characters increase across the leveling process to end at or around a standard SDE character level. Keep a lot of the abilities we have in SDE or Arcade now and add to them for more options. Let people add keywords and abilities, hearts, dice, movement etc as they level so they end up with a full SDE/Arcade character at level 6 (XS or whatever it is?!).

The main issue again becomes one of balance, but with WEAKER characters we can write adventures without 3 full spawn points, with one or two monsters at a time or with weaker monsters (written into the adventure/penalty cards?) so games can be balanced to a reasonable level. Restrict access to items to prevent power creep, perhaps making it so you need to accrue trash items in your first level game in order to buy a new low introductory level of loot, then more adventuring to get standard loot, more again to get treasures and perhaps allow a final higher tier. Its MMO style item leveling at its most basic.

Make games light and fast to play. The more simplified system of having easier characters to play with to start can almost act as a tutorial for the full game of SDE/Arcade. Think of the story based campaigns and leveling up as leveling in an MMO and the full game of SDE/arcade as the end game for a character you have built from the ground up...

I don't even think we are that far away from being able to implement this kind of thing now as we have banks of skills from SDE/Arcade and rulesets ready to go. Surely it wouldn't be too hard to convert the core rules into the campaign adventures. In essence, you are talking about a custom chart which has been discussed previously. A lot of the art assets for Legends will remain relevant and we just need to flesh out some of the Legends skills (which surely won't be too hard to convert from the Legends game as it is written now as they use the same dice etc...)

Return to making RPG an option and not the main game and give people what they actually thought they were going to get when they backed this project...

What do you think?


October 13th, 2017, 9:15 pm
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Consul
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This thread got me wondering if it would have been a good approach to make Legends play just like Explore, but with the following changes.

Keep the tiles and maps from current Legends.
Also keep the "scripted" events.
Keep the optional RPG elements.
Loot/treasure would only be given if the quest notes dictated so.
Loot/treasure would be lost after each quest-series. Say a particular story is told over 4 games. You keep your equipment through these games and each game is increasingly harder to compensate.
Skip the progress system entirely!

It would almost be like playing regular SDE, but just with a linked story/campaign.
This core seems incredibly simple to me, but the possibilities are endless with the maps and quest notes.

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October 13th, 2017, 9:37 pm
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Minion
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Perhaps if they release a mission editor that idea may become a reality...


October 14th, 2017, 6:56 am
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Bottle Cap
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I had been playing around with some "Legends" stuff in my head for a while, but ultimately, it would probably fall on deaf ears. It's comprised of a few different elements from a few systems including (but not limited to) Myth, Descent, Hero Quest, Massive Darkness, and (Potentially) Kingdom death, but this is far off; I do wanna see what Legends ends up looking like as a finished product before I change it (it will almost surely happen).

The Key element I would reveal about my idea would be to mitigate the "power creep" restrict the hero's "base stats" on the card to just "basic actions" or "skill checks" and the like, while actual attacks would be based solely on equipment (a system found in most dungeon crawl systems)

Example, the Starguild Sapper's Str printed on his card would be used for stuff like, maybe, smashing chests, skill checks via the explore/ challenge deck, etc wheras his attack strength is based on the brass knuckles he has equipped. Obviously this would require the overhauled loot decks (which I'd wanna see what legends provides first) and modified loot gain. In that sense, I'd probably have most loot be crafting components rather than actual loot and loot would be way more scarce and sometimes even equipable by monsters that you would beat and receive instead of (or sometimes in addition to) crafting materials. Heroes would also have "starting loot" so their not helpless at the beginning, but if nothing else, I would think it's a good start.


October 14th, 2017, 7:03 am
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Goblin-King wrote:
Loot/treasure would be lost after each quest-series. Say a particular story is told over 4 games. You keep your equipment through these games and each game is increasingly harder to compensate.
Skip the progress system entirely!

Personally I think progression is needed in a campaign system and I also like current approach in Legends.

I don't think what you propose regarding loot is easily doable with current cards: heroes will quickly max their strength by acquiring the best loot they can... this will effectively cap number of scenarios/tiles in a single campaign to a really small number. Unless either missions are the same in terms of difficulty (but campaign without at least item-based progression doesn't feel right) or more "power levels" of loot is introduced (but I'm not sure we need more decks :P).

So... I prefer currently proposed ststem :). Regarding we are not getting what we were told: I don't feel this way. Legends was never precisely specified during KS (unless my memory faols me). They can call it light-RPG, but it's still basically a boardgame even with current progression system. Also as far as we were told, current delay in Legends happened because initial approach was to use Explore/Arcade systems but it didn't turn out fun.


October 14th, 2017, 8:54 am
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Minion
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I think the devs would accept that we aren't getting what we were told as they werent making what we are getting when we paid for it....


October 14th, 2017, 10:06 am
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Consul
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c2h5oc2h5 wrote:
Personally I think progression is needed in a campaign system and I also like current approach in Legends.

A few years ago I might have fully agreed, but having played a WHOLE lot of HeroQuest, I'm beginning to change my mind. A couple of possible scenarios regarding progression:

* Heroes gets stronger. More and/or stronger monsters are continually needed.
* Heroes reach some sort of cap. The powerlevel of both heroes and monsters are now static anyways.

If you reset the powerlevel every few missions, you have much better control over the balance.

c2h5oc2h5 wrote:
I don't think what you propose regarding loot is easily doable with current cards: heroes will quickly max their strength by acquiring the best loot they can... this will effectively cap number of scenarios/tiles in a single campaign to a really small number. Unless either missions are the same in terms of difficulty (but campaign without at least item-based progression doesn't feel right) or more "power levels" of loot is introduced (but I'm not sure we need more decks :P).

I think it's very doable! I probably didn't explain my concept well enough... :)

Lets say the quest book has 20 quests. "Road to Crystalia" is the first of these quests. It has iirc 3 rooms and ~10 monsters.
Killing monsters WON'T give you loot, but instead the quest notes would say something like: "Once you kill the final kobold, draw 1 loot card".
Next missions are "Clear the kobolds from the mine", "The puppetmaster" and "Final Confrontation". 4 Missions form a mini campaign together.
Granted loot and treasure are strictly controlled by the quest notes.
Once this mini campaign is completed the equipment is destroyed. You might get a good treasure card in mission 2, but you only get to keep it till the end of "Final Confrontation".
20 quests would give ~5 mini campaigns.

But this is just one of infinite ways to make a game. They are not gonna change it around at this point anyways.
I still think it would have been nice if Legends used more from Explore.

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October 14th, 2017, 11:45 am
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Thank you for starting this thread, I appreciate the discussion. There are lots of ways we can tweak and improve Legends as a community and this thread could be great to mine those ideas. That said, we are not completely redesigning Legends. I have given our reasons on the kickstarter but, as many people here may not see the kickstarter comments, I'll condense those replies here:

For anyone confused about Legends is, please see the following update as it contains the full rules and you can read for yourself: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/so ... ts/2002230

I understand that the Legends concept is different than what some of you expected. I fully appreciate why that would be frustrating! I apologize. That is on us.

We did not do a good enough job of explaining what Legends was from the start, and that allowed people to fill that void with their own theories and expectations, so when we finalized a direction we were bound to disappoint some of you. That is on us. Communication could have been better. We take responsibility. We are giving you all of the information now, along with the full rules for you to read for yourself, and you can make an informed decision.

That being said, we are not going to completely re-imagine and redesign Legends again. That would only cause further delays on a project that is already delayed. Additionally, we are proud of this version and there are a number of customers who like this direction. Unfortunately, we were bound to disappoint some portion of you.

Now, we want your feedback! I think we've gotten some great feedback here. You asked for monster cards? We're looking at the best way to implement that. You want printable, premade character sheets with all the abilities? Done! You have ideas about tweaks to the game, ways to make coop better, a desire for a coop deck of some sort: let's hear it! But, you want us to completely scrap the design and start over? I'm sorry, but no, that is not the kind of feedback we can take at this stage. Further redesigns and delays are not on the table, this kickstarter has seen enough of that (and again - that was our choice and entirely on us).
If you feel this is a ride you can no longer take with us, I am sorry. I really am. I want you to stick with us. I want you to love this game. But I also understand if this is not what you expected from this game. I wish we could make everyone happy.

If you do want to try out Legends, the best way to influence the design is to try it out, and leave us feedback through our feedback form: https://ninjadivision.typeform.com/to/LN0t1g

I personally respond to every piece of feedback we get through that form.

I will also talk to Deke about addressing some of this in his livestream next week, and I encourage all of you to be there to ask him questions. If you can't be there, email your questions to me: justin.gibbs@ninjadivision.com and I can give them to him. The video will also be posted so people who couldn't see it live can view it at their convenience.

But what IS Legends? There seems to be some confusion. Legends is an RPG-lite. This means it is an immersive roleplaying experience, but it relies heavily on traditional board game components and miniatures to make it more easily accessible to newer players. Its gameplay is streamlined compared to traditional Explore so that combat can be quicker, allowing more time for story to develop and characters to level up.

There is some writing necessary for Legends. As you reach max level, any individual character may have up to three abilities they need to write in. Character cards that work with dry erase markers will be provided in order to easily allow players to write these three abilities (this is what all of the 'writing versus card' discussion is about). However, the vast majority of the information a player needs will be on their pre-built character sheet. They only need to write these three abilities as they achieve more levels.
Cards for loot and wonders (the Legends version of treasure) will absolutely be provided.

Legends is designed to be simple, fast, and fun. We want it to be playable with your children (if they can't write, writing in the three abilities for them is easy enough - and you won't even need to write all three at the start, most of these are abilities you gain as you level). We also want it to be a bridge between tabletop games and roleplaying games. So if you have kids or non-gamer friends whom you want to introduce to roleplaying, Legends should be perfect.

Alright, that is what Legends IS. If you have any further questions, please see the update that contains the full rules and you can see for yourself.

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October 14th, 2017, 3:32 pm
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ND_Justin wrote:
Thank you for starting this thread, I appreciate the discussion. There are lots of ways we can tweak and improve Legends as a community and this thread could be great to mine those ideas. That said, we are not completely redesigning Legends. I have given our reasons on the kickstarter but, as many people here may not see the kickstarter comments, I'll condense those replies here:

For anyone confused about Legends is, please see the following update as it contains the full rules and you can read for yourself: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/so ... ts/2002230

I understand that the Legends concept is different than what some of you expected. I fully appreciate why that would be frustrating! I apologize. That is on us.

We did not do a good enough job of explaining what Legends was from the start, and that allowed people to fill that void with their own theories and expectations, so when we finalized a direction we were bound to disappoint some of you. That is on us. Communication could have been better. We take responsibility. We are giving you all of the information now, along with the full rules for you to read for yourself, and you can make an informed decision.

That being said, we are not going to completely re-imagine and redesign Legends again. That would only cause further delays on a project that is already delayed. Additionally, we are proud of this version and there are a number of customers who like this direction. Unfortunately, we were bound to disappoint some portion of you.

Now, we want your feedback! I think we've gotten some great feedback here. You asked for monster cards? We're looking at the best way to implement that. You want printable, premade character sheets with all the abilities? Done! You have ideas about tweaks to the game, ways to make coop better, a desire for a coop deck of some sort: let's hear it! But, you want us to completely scrap the design and start over? I'm sorry, but no, that is not the kind of feedback we can take at this stage. Further redesigns and delays are not on the table, this kickstarter has seen enough of that (and again - that was our choice and entirely on us).
If you feel this is a ride you can no longer take with us, I am sorry. I really am. I want you to stick with us. I want you to love this game. But I also understand if this is not what you expected from this game. I wish we could make everyone happy.

If you do want to try out Legends, the best way to influence the design is to try it out, and leave us feedback through our feedback form: https://ninjadivision.typeform.com/to/LN0t1g

I personally respond to every piece of feedback we get through that form.

I will also talk to Deke about addressing some of this in his livestream next week, and I encourage all of you to be there to ask him questions. If you can't be there, email your questions to me: justin.gibbs@ninjadivision.com and I can give them to him. The video will also be posted so people who couldn't see it live can view it at their convenience.

But what IS Legends? There seems to be some confusion. Legends is an RPG-lite. This means it is an immersive roleplaying experience, but it relies heavily on traditional board game components and miniatures to make it more easily accessible to newer players. Its gameplay is streamlined compared to traditional Explore so that combat can be quicker, allowing more time for story to develop and characters to level up.

There is some writing necessary for Legends. As you reach max level, any individual character may have up to three abilities they need to write in. Character cards that work with dry erase markers will be provided in order to easily allow players to write these three abilities (this is what all of the 'writing versus card' discussion is about). However, the vast majority of the information a player needs will be on their pre-built character sheet. They only need to write these three abilities as they achieve more levels.
Cards for loot and wonders (the Legends version of treasure) will absolutely be provided.

Legends is designed to be simple, fast, and fun. We want it to be playable with your children (if they can't write, writing in the three abilities for them is easy enough - and you won't even need to write all three at the start, most of these are abilities you gain as you level). We also want it to be a bridge between tabletop games and roleplaying games. So if you have kids or non-gamer friends whom you want to introduce to roleplaying, Legends should be perfect.

Alright, that is what Legends IS. If you have any further questions, please see the update that contains the full rules and you can see for yourself.


I was under the assumption that this was more of a fan thing for people who are still backing the Kickstarter, but not quite "jiving" with the Legends rules and suggesting fan- made solutions. I have no doubt that you will not be changing the direction of Legends, but that doesn't mean the community can't build a version they like themselves ^ ^


October 15th, 2017, 12:54 am
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Justin may take the idea from Arcadia Quest to make "Level" of Loot Decks (and maybe Wonders) bounded to number of scenarios/adventures accomplished to avoid early overpowered heroes.
Loot Deck A ---> 1-2 adventures = weak equipment stats with low quantity and/or variety of crystals/crowns/etc to make wonders;
Loot Deck B ---> 3-4 adventures = mid equipment stats with mid quantity and/or variety of crystals/crowns/candy/music/etc to make wonders;
Loot Deck C ---> 5-6 adventures = strong equipment stats with high quantity and/or variety of crystals/crowns/candy/music/gear/game/etc to make wonders;

And the quantity rate of capsules to take a card on Item Deck vs. quantity rate of capsules with crystals/crowns/candy/etc also could be different on each deck.

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October 16th, 2017, 3:11 pm
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Goblin-King wrote:
This thread got me wondering if it would have been a good approach to make Legends play just like Explore, but with the following changes.

Keep the tiles and maps from current Legends.
Also keep the "scripted" events.
Keep the optional RPG elements.
Loot/treasure would only be given if the quest notes dictated so.
Loot/treasure would be lost after each quest-series. Say a particular story is told over 4 games. You keep your equipment through these games and each game is increasingly harder to compensate.
Skip the progress system entirely!

It would almost be like playing regular SDE, but just with a linked story/campaign.
This core seems incredibly simple to me, but the possibilities are endless with the maps and quest notes.



This is a pretty simple set of rules- but I think they'd be fun.


To be honest, I think I'd be disappointed if SPM gave us your set of rules- they feel a lot like some of the "tacked on" campaign modes that I've played. On the other hand, I think I'd love them as a fan expansion (for some reason, I like my fan expansions to change as little of the game as possible, while I prefer my official expansions to add lots of new stuff).


So please write them up for us and post them. I'm sure I'll have a lot of fun with them.

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October 16th, 2017, 10:05 pm
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Nephastus wrote:
Justin may take the idea from Arcadia Quest to make "Level" of Loot Decks (and maybe Wonders) bounded to number of scenarios/adventures accomplished to avoid early overpowered heroes.
Loot Deck A ---> 1-2 adventures = weak equipment stats with low quantity and/or variety of crystals/crowns/etc to make wonders;
Loot Deck B ---> 3-4 adventures = mid equipment stats with mid quantity and/or variety of crystals/crowns/candy/music/etc to make wonders;
Loot Deck C ---> 5-6 adventures = strong equipment stats with high quantity and/or variety of crystals/crowns/candy/music/gear/game/etc to make wonders;

And the quantity rate of capsules to take a card on Item Deck vs. quantity rate of capsules with crystals/crowns/candy/etc also could be different on each deck.


Ok, there's an interesting thought. Just have several different level loot and treasure decks. You can start out with one set and keep all of your gear from adventure to adventure. But having better gear means that you'll actually WANT to replace it all with the new stuff.


You'll need a continuously building Mighty Monster Chart as well. Or something in the way of difficulty cards. I think it'd be interesting if you could add one new monster upgrade every time you level up (make sure they change bosses as well).


Ok, guys- get to making this a cool fan-made version of playing SDE. This is only a little more involved than what I like to see in a fan-expansion (I'll need to print my cards) but if it is cool, I'll do it.

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October 16th, 2017, 10:14 pm
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