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Minion
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Joined: December 11th, 2015, 1:39 am
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OK, yes, we're going to get Legends and then we will play that. But I'm not patient enough so I came up with my own house rules.

The goal here is to create a 'story mode' that provides these elements:

Customized character creation
Character progression and leveling
Campaign and adventure creation tools, making for shorter/deeper/more varied scenarios

This is the basic outline I've created so far. It needs a lot of work, but I thought it would be worth showing off to see if anyone thinks it's worth continuing.

Character Creation
1. Characters should be built from a combination of a series of short, simple decisions. For example, a character could be race + job + starting skill. Initial characters would have a limited number of skills available, and these would expand based on previous decisions. Skill trees are a great idea.
2. Potentially riff directly off Dragon Age and break out by rogue/warrior/mage. Everything breaks down from there. (Note: Go through existing characters to determine where things could expand. Make sure every type of character in SDE can be represented in SDA - and even some that can’t.)
3. More fine-grained skills that allow for tons of progression and very high ceilings. Consuls can control the pace of growth by awarding varying levels of crystals after adventures.
4. Job (or whatever) can be multi-classed - for the cost of a new skill, you can choose to add a second job. This doesn’t come with any new skills but does let you have access to that second tree.
5. The real work will come in making that skill tree. It doesn’t have to be complicated but I will need to catalog all the skills and figure out how to make them work smoothly.

Progression
1. This part is easy - when you get enough crystals, you can buy a new skill. You have to have purchased the ones above it, but it’s always the same price.
2. Upgrades that reflect stat improvements will be skills, and only reflected in the improved numbers. No skill may be taken more than once (but some skills may be listed twice, allowing you to take the same bonus twice).
3. Crystals are gained by turning in loot at the end of the game. When you discard loot during the game, you get 1 crystal. When you discard treasures, you get 2 crystals. (NOTE: Make crystal tokens)

Campaign tools
1. We want to be able to make any kind of adventure with whatever minis and tiles we have. This may require making custom boards until Legends arrives.
2. Need some basic guidelines for crystal level vs monster levels. Monsters break down to: creeps, 8 bit, 16 bit, mini-boss, boss, and each has a crystal level.


May 15th, 2017, 9:23 pm
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Denizen
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Seems cool. How meaningful will the first decisions be? Generating stat focuses would be best done right away, with picking what stats the character uses for what (and preventing them from picking the same stat to do everything (Ninja Cola). This means that there are the stat combinations of:
(Off + Def)
Str + Arm
Str + Will
Str + Dex
Will + Arm
Will + Dex
Dex + Arm
Dex + Will
You could just build classes from there, in a thematic sense, or you could just make basic, large branching trees with each tree just covering a single main role (Damage, AoE, Tank, Control, Support, Debuffing, etc)

I would also recommend making choice of race more meaningful than just a keyword on your card that could potentially affect you. Elves get one extra MP, dwarfs get one extra HP, frejan get Nine Lives, etc.

Obviously Starting Skill comes from your class/job/whatever-you-call-it.

Perhaps use die roll averages to value them as stat points? Getting X amount of Blue Dice allows you to exchange for a Red, Red or Blue can become White, Red to Green, etc.

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My custom SDE cards. Currently only Heroes, but I'm open to suggestions.


May 15th, 2017, 11:39 pm
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Minion
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Here's how I see the decision tree working:

Choose your race (get modification to basic stats)
Choose your class (get assigned your offensive stat and get a bonus in that stat)
Choose your first skill (get your defensive stat and a bonus in that stat; a very basic skill is included)

I'm still kind of riffing off Dragon Age here - if you're in the Warrior class, you have STR as your offensive stat. Then there are three sub-trees (I suppose there could be more, but this works for now) and each of those sub-trees has a different defensive stat. Same goes for Mage or Rogue classes (though I think I want to change the names - 'mage' is just someone who uses Will to attack, and could apply to druids as well, and 'rogue' is just someone who relies on speed and agility over armored sturdiness).

Your initial character would be pretty flimsy, with not a lot of operational flexibility. The default potion skill will depend on class, and be a very simple and not especially impressive ability. Higher skill selections will allow for cooler potion effects, but at the start you get something like '+1 STR' if you're a warrior or Heal 1 if you're a mage.

The idea is to create a character who can grow for a long time, adding new, minor skills on a more routine basis. That way you could play with the same hero every Sunday for six months before you hit the theoretical limit (and we would need to set a limit so that heroes don't end up taking every skill in every tree).


May 16th, 2017, 12:43 pm
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Minion
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I wouldn't mind helping, I just have alot of things going on right now. I can throw out some sub-classes.

Warrior

Marshall (Two-Handed Warrior, stuns, disables and keeps the target in check)
Berserker/Barbarian (Focuses on warcries (aura) to buff and massive damage dealing, innate rage as a passive)
Vanguard (Basic sword and board type fighter, control and damage control to tank)

Rogue

Saboteur (Flanking, gains bonuses from having more than one hero attacking a monster)
Shadowwalker (Lets the hero teleport from monster to monster hiding in its "shadow", the shadow step has to have a limit)
Duelist (Monk type tree, about building combos to unleash skills that gain a bonus if used as a finisher, requires combo points)

Mage

Primal (Pure DD)
Control (Focuses on controlling the field)
Heal (Name says it all)

Alot more could be added lots of room, especially when you get into specialties like druids, paladin, monk, so on and so one. Bard is one that doesn't need left out.


May 16th, 2017, 1:09 pm
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Minion
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I tend to think that while we certainly have some existing archetypes in the game already, an open advancement structure with minimal classes would allow us to build just about anything. So if you want a bard, you take Mage/Control, then at your next skill pick, you get rogue (opening that tree), then Duelist. But the sub-classes are more a gathering of common skills than names of jobs. Taking that first sub-class determines your primary defensive stat along with a little bump to it (probably +1B). You only get that part of the skill once per character (so you can't just go through taking every sub-class as new skills to make your dice stats ridiculous).

I think a system like this could be used to create just about any of the existing heroes, as long as the skill trees were carefully constructed. Transformation skills could be located in multiple trees, but deep enough that it would be difficult (if not impossible) to get more than one. An existing SDE hero would be equivalent to a relatively high-level SDA character. After all, you don't expect a team of grubby n00bs to take on a dragon in his lair. But the SDA heroes can keep going after they're as tough as the existing heroes, and get themselves in shape to take on tougher enemies, including potentially taking the fight to multiple bosses at once.

I think the tricky part of this right now is building that skill tree and figuring out a low-accounting way to track your skills. That's probably the most time-intensive portion of the program (outside making custom room tiles, which is going to take a lot of time). I'll work on that when I have some time. You know, between painting the several hundred SDE minis I already have, building 3D tiles, and coming up with cool status effect tokens that aren't cardboard discs.


May 16th, 2017, 5:11 pm
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Minion
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Try to use the crystal affinities then that way you don't have to exclusively name the classes. Then you can use those to outline your stats, passives and abilities. Ruby - Wil, Emerald - Dex, Sapphire - Def (Its versatility really), Citrine - Str. I feel like this would be easier to classify what skills should go where. I'm sorry if I am not making sense I'm used to talking about game design in person with my friend, not really typing it.

Do a point system though for stats it'll take a little brainstorming to get something balanced but I'm sure you can get it down right.


May 16th, 2017, 7:09 pm
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Minion
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That would make sense. I definitely want to avoid making the 'classes' DnD clones. It would be cool to have the character types broken into Ruby, Emerald, Citrine. I could see three classes:
Citrine (STR) - front-line brawler
Emerald (DEX) - evasive, quick, and versatile
Ruby (WIL) - magic-using

I left out Sapphire because your first class determines your offensive stat, and you don't use ARM for offense.

Each of these base classes could break down into three more, to determine your defense stat. For instance, if you choose Emerald (DEX), you then choose Citrine (STR), Ruby (WIL) or Sapphire (ARM) as your defense stat. Yes, I know nobody uses STR for defense right now, but unlike using ARM as offense, if STR represents skill with a weapon, that's a perfectly good stat to use for defense.

So with two quick decisions, you've got 9 different base classes:

STR+ARM: straightforward fighter type - skills involve hitting things and absorbing damage
STR+DEX: duelist - skills involve dodging and countering
STR+WIL: berserker - skills involve sweeps or multiple attacks

DEX+STR: ranged attacker - archer or whatever
DEX+WIL: sneak - stealth, backstabs
DEX+ARM: combo fighter - applies negative conditions and then exploits them

WIL+STR: death-dealer - splash attacks, ranged magic
WIL+DEX: support - buffs and controls
WIL+ARM: healer - cleanses effects and removes wounds


May 16th, 2017, 7:42 pm
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Minion
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Maybe make Sapphire a healing/support type class, makes sense for a healer to be sturdy.

I have a plan for skills/equipment if you like it. Do something basic and easy say:

Weapon
Armor
Relic/Accessory (Depending on how you classify it)

This set-up is very JRPG.

Now for skills say you can take from 2-4 skills into a mission with you, you don't really need a skill tree this way making a skill ranking system would be better. You never unlearn skills you pick by leveling up or purchasing with crystals. Would be a little better if you lets the heroes buy stuff as a team rather than a individual (Makes team work a little bit more involved. I like MMORPGs freedom of choose your own, but bonding is so good).

Now for purchasing skills, when you buy a skill it can be shared or passed over to other players and such. It'll be more like the team learns the skill, but not all may be able to use it. When you enter the scenario you can pick the 2-4 (how ever many you want to allow the character to have), to use for the mission. This way you win or fail based on decisions before you even enter the mission (A mission briefing should be allowed).

For the final suggestion, I would like to say allow a character to have a passive slot, this could be for damage boost, or passives such as 9 lives, Stealth, Fly, ect. You can keep this pool small or large depending on how you feel but adds alot of versatility to your characters and it could work like skills, you purchase as a group, but its not permanent and can be switched as the party sees fit.

So they way I see this system is easy, simple and fast. You might spend the total of 10 mins prepping your party before entering a mission, but its easy switch and swap.

So I was thinking your final board would look something like this:

Weapon
Armor
Relic/Accessory
Skill #1/Skill #2/Skill #3/Skill #4 (Your choice of how many you want to have)
Passive

Now for stats I think a simple point buy would really work, I really hate something that relies on crystals to really pick out your stats, it feels like your forced to play a certain way.


May 18th, 2017, 12:20 am
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Minion
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Oh, I like the idea of having a limit on skills and you have to decide which to take into a dungeon! I'm kind of thinking of printing up skill cards, and I could put prerequisites on the cards themselves. The idea is that you could buy a skill that was 'Power Attack (2A): M, +1R' and then later you could buy 'Power Sweep (2A): 2M, +1R' and then later 'Devastating Sweep (2A): M, Wave 1, +1R, Knockdown' and equip your favorite. You could equip two of these, but that would be silly.

When I say you're paying for progression in crystals, I don't mean associating it with colors. Crystals in this sense are currency. Maybe we should just call them gold or loot coins or something, to avoid confusion. I do want to limit skill selection by class, though - it provides further segmentation of roles. It's not completely restrictive, though - you can always buy into another class to add to your character, selecting diversity over focused advancement. Since this advancement scheme allows heroes to grow a lot more than 5 or 6 times, multi-class heroes are an easy option.


May 18th, 2017, 1:14 pm
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Minion
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Weapons can also determine if the attack is range, magic or melee.

Example:

Bow
1B DEX, Arrow 8

Sword
1B STR, Sword 1

Lance
1B STR, Sword 2

Staff
1B WIL, Magic 3

This way it makes it really easy to determine with stat you are using to attack with.

With skills I always thought in games like this utility > damage, hitting hard is nice but since we are only doing 1 damage anyways. Your prerequisites makes me think a little about D&D feats.

I was just saying that you can lump most of the stuff in the crystal colors.

Citrine - Heavy focus on damage and tanking, pulling, pushing, combat control
Ruby - Magic damage, can be lumped with a small bit of control and heavy AOE
Emerald - Speedy movement stuff, ranged arrows, traps, debuffs
Sapphire - Support, tanky, healing

For multiclassing just let a player pick two affinities, you don't have to have no point buy or lower end thing if you choose to go with two. With the skill limit and having to pick between so many skills before entering, multiclassing affinities won't matter to much anyways. It just allows for players to pick more roles when entering missions, so if their is something that they are locked from (Anti-magic barrier) then they won't feel useless. I was thinking of something like this with skills, not trying to step on your toes or go against your vision.

These will all be active skill examples

Citrine

Endurance - Gives Tough for 2 turns (Could be passive, if so it'll go in another list)
Whirlwind - AOE around the user
Bladestorm - A ranged AOE
Mighty Swing - Knockback
Taunt - Gain wrath
Shield Wall - Defense boost

Ruby

Firewall - When you move you leave behind a flame that deals damage to targets you move by
Mana Shield - Lose a Potion instead of Hearts
Chain Lightning - Can arc through monsters, your damage roll drops by one for each new monster
Winter Strike - Has a chance of freezing
Teleport - Does what it says

Emerald

Backstab - Need to flank
Sprint - Like teleport
Spinning Blades - Has a chance to deal double damage
Low Blow - Crippling effect
Disarm - Lowers attack
Decoy - Mitigate damage to tank or other
Lob Shot - Range attack that slows
Rain of Arrows - AOE Range attack

Sapphire

Lay on Hands - Classic Paladin heal
Auras - Can be many types, grant immunities, defenses, attack
Other type of heals
Also can do a little bit of damage too, but it will require attacking stat


May 18th, 2017, 2:25 pm
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Minion
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You know, I think you're onto something! Clawandbyte had a cool idea for separating by OFF + DEF, but that limits us to 9 sub-classes. If we had four top classes that determine your general emphasis, and then a second sub-class that gives you your defense stat, you could use weapons to determine your OFF stat (like you just said). Now you could have 16 sub-classes, for a lot more flexibility.

So if I want to make a cleric, I take Sapphire (where I will choose skills) + Sapphire (for my defense stat). I take a mace for a weapon, which means my offense stat is STR. Then I can take skills from the Citrine group, and if I want to multiclass into a paladin, I spend a skill point to jump into the Citrine class.

Here's a thing, though - the original idea I had makes sure nobody uses one stat for everything, but now if I take Ruby for defense and a magic wand, now both offense and defense are WIL. So how do we get around that? Do we just come right out and say that you can't pick a weapon and a defense stat that use the same stat? Actually that sort of makes sense.

I agree that the prerequisites are a lot like D&D feats, but I don't have a problem with that. If you want to be a damage machine, able to knock the wind out of a whole group of knucklehead kobolds, you just keep piling on that one skill. If you want to be a little more flexible, you hit the buffet and try different things. You could have tiered skills that build on each other.

Fireball:
Level A: 8W, +1R, Burst 1
Level B: 9W, +1R, Burst 2
Level C: 9W, +1G, Burst 2
Level D: 10W, +1G, Burst 3

Lots of skills could work like this, but they don't have to.


May 18th, 2017, 7:37 pm
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Minion
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Well you can just let the crystal affinity determine the skills you use and you can point buy your stats. You can still group your skills together in some way but it cuts classes out all together unless you want to call it Crystal Class (I prefer affinity much more). You'll want to steamline this because simplicity goes along way. Rules are easier, adaptability and easy of learning especially in a lite RPG, it'll garner more players. You want to know these rules in a few pages, since this is a expansion type and could be built off of the core rules. Monster creation is a whole different can of worms that can be discussed at a later date.

Example of a simple point buy type system. Mono Ruby affinity, cause you want to be a caster. So you get to pick, 2x 1B, 2B,1R for a starting character (This is just a example). So really its not even a point buy if you do this its stat placement.

STR: 1B
ARM: 2B
DEX: 1B
WIL: 1R

All characters will start with 3 AP, 6 Movement, 5 Heart. Race will determine any other bonuses, such as 9 Lives, +1 Heart, +1 Movement. You could make it where either Humans are the only ones who get a extra affinity or maybe a bonus B die to one stat.

Your armor will always determent your defense, and defense will always be ARM. This way you avoid any of that all one stat stacking together.

As far as skills go, it depends on how you would like to do it. Level =/= Skill Tier. Say you max at level 5, you don't have to have skill tiers that high you could make it 3 tiers. Basic, Advance, Heroic.

1-2: Basic
3-4: Advance
5: Heroic

Also what I meant about weapons determining your damage. Say you've picked Citrine as your affinity, your a bulky tank. You pick up a bow and want to use it you can. Now instead of STR determining your attack now DEX will. Of course you'll probably never do this. And of course skills will have their own range and action point cost and type of damage they do (Melee, Range, Magic).


May 19th, 2017, 4:18 am
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Minion
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Good point on classes vs affinity. You don't choose a class, you choose your affinity. But it would still be good to choose two affinities - you could choose ruby twice, if you're a spell caster, but you could also choose ruby + citrine if you're a war mage. That would let you choose skills from both affinities.

But there should be an advantage to choosing the same affinity twice, or else everyone will just do that. There is an obvious benefit to having two different affinities. Not so much with just one. Perhaps you choose a second affinity instead of buying a new skill? So at creation, everyone chooses one affinity and gets one auto skill point. You can buy a skill in your chosen affinity right off the bat, or you could grab that second affinity and go into the start of the game just a little bit behind everyone else. That would actually encourage people to focus their abilities until they made some progress.

I'm split on mandating ARM for defense. On the one hand, I like the idea of a dodgy little git who uses DEX for defense, or a wizard with a magical shield using WIL. On the other hand, since there aren't a lot of rolls, you could just abstract ARM to say that it's not your armor, it's your ability to avoid a beating, however you do it. You might have a heavy shield, or you might just be a ninja.

Come to think of it, you could have skills in every affinity that raise ARM, and make it thematic through naming. Like an Emerald affinity called 'Dodgy' that raises ARM, or a Ruby affinity called 'Magic Bubble.' I think that's probably the way to go for now.

I don't guess I like the skill tier/level thing. You could just advance with low-level skills and then suddenly, because you're a high-level hero, you can just take the strongest skill available. It would encourage people to take non-tiered skills just to level up, since they wouldn't want to waste low-tier buys on skills they were going to replace later.

Plus the skill tiers feel more thematic. You start out learn how to hit things with a heavy hammer, and then you get better and learn how to hit harder. You master the hammer and learn how to sweep a lot of foes at once, and then finally you learn how to scatter them like tenpins. Low-level skill purchases still feel validated because you have to learn them if you want the big ones.

I like that weapons choose offense and ARM is always defense. That works pretty well. It separates out affinity choice right at the start. Plus it makes a lot of sense.


May 19th, 2017, 1:04 pm
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Minion
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Quote:
Come to think of it, you could have skills in every affinity that raise ARM, and make it thematic through naming. Like an Emerald affinity called 'Dodgy' that raises ARM, or a Ruby affinity called 'Magic Bubble.' I think that's probably the way to go for now.


This would work, or you could make it a passive to give them defense on dodge. The only difference with SDE and this is no armor would really raise DEX that much. Say +1R ARM, +1B DEX. They can use it as a defense but would you really want to? Depends on your weapon and maybe relic. Just for simplicity you could just have it count as like you said how well you can take your beating. Plus in many games shields add to defense, while I don't think its thematic in anyway, its a trope.

Quote:
I don't guess I like the skill tier/level thing. You could just advance with low-level skills and then suddenly, because you're a high-level hero, you can just take the strongest skill available. It would encourage people to take non-tiered skills just to level up, since they wouldn't want to waste low-tier buys on skills they were going to replace later.

Plus the skill tiers feel more thematic. You start out learn how to hit things with a heavy hammer, and then you get better and learn how to hit harder. You master the hammer and learn how to sweep a lot of foes at once, and then finally you learn how to scatter them like tenpins. Low-level skill purchases still feel validated because you have to learn them if you want the big ones.


With this I understand but what I was thinking is take skill points out all together. Just do the whole pick your skills while going into battle. They way this will work is you want to make a Rank 1 skill compared to a Rank 2 skill.

This is a rough example:

Lightning skill will cost 1 ruby crystal, 1 emerald crystal.
Lightning Arc skill will cost 5 ruby crystal, 5 emerald crystal.

It will accommodate loot drops, tougher monsters will drop more of the crystals needed to make the skills, so you have no choice but to use lower levels. Plus the ideal for this is to make most skills utility oppose to power. This means that the skills stay relevant no matter what. Some will be better than others, but that is always expected no matter what. Perfect balance can never be achieved.

Now for passives they should be a whole thing together, you should have to get passives from loot or the store. I feel like they shouldn't really be baked into a affinity group. While some may seem thematic I just think it'll be nicer to use them like a add-on.

Quote:
Good point on classes vs affinity. You don't choose a class, you choose your affinity. But it would still be good to choose two affinities - you could choose ruby twice, if you're a spell caster, but you could also choose ruby + citrine if you're a war mage. That would let you choose skills from both affinities.

But there should be an advantage to choosing the same affinity twice, or else everyone will just do that. There is an obvious benefit to having two different affinities. Not so much with just one. Perhaps you choose a second affinity instead of buying a new skill? So at creation, everyone chooses one affinity and gets one auto skill point. You can buy a skill in your chosen affinity right off the bat, or you could grab that second affinity and go into the start of the game just a little bit behind everyone else. That would actually encourage people to focus their abilities until they made some progress.


It'll just be nice if you want to, just have a human be able to choose a different affinity. Or since your familiar with dragon age, when you choose a specialty at a certain level, once you make it to another level you can choose another specialty. So take I'm at level 3 of 5 so after my base affinity I'll be able to spec into another affinity. I like the human being able to be the only ones to choose two affinities (lore wise it makes sense because as a human you adapt, you don't really follow traditions like other races, so you become flexible.) Lots of races seemed pigeon-hold, which is cool, but always when you come to the humans we are everywhere, ever curious.


May 20th, 2017, 2:52 am
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Minion
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Samgillians wrote:
It'll just be nice if you want to, just have a human be able to choose a different affinity. Or since your familiar with dragon age, when you choose a specialty at a certain level, once you make it to another level you can choose another specialty. So take I'm at level 3 of 5 so after my base affinity I'll be able to spec into another affinity. I like the human being able to be the only ones to choose two affinities (lore wise it makes sense because as a human you adapt, you don't really follow traditions like other races, so you become flexible.) Lots of races seemed pigeon-hold, which is cool, but always when you come to the humans we are everywhere, ever curious.

That would work. Limit the option to take that second affinity until you've got a few skills under your belt - unless you're human, in which case you could do that right out of the gate. It means for those specialty crossover jobs like bard or war wizard you probably want to be a human, but you're not forced into that. It's just not as easy for an elf as it is for a human.


May 22nd, 2017, 1:35 pm
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Minion
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I made a quick list of some skills, with a overall theme. More can be added this is only a small list.

Citrine - Physical, Defensive
Charge
Bladeblitz
Launch
Threaten
Piercing Strike
Guard
Taunt
Pummeling Fist
Monkey Lunge
Smite
Crusader's Fist
Bladestorm
Shield Wall
Vicious Stomp
Cutting Barbs
Deathblow
Suffocation
Punisher
Retribution

Ruby - Magic
Sleep
Confuse
Poison
Stop
Blind
Mana Shield
Magic Missile
Teleport
Arcane Strike
Arcane Blast
Temporal Stasis
Polymorph
Fire Ball
Fire Wall
Chains of Fire
Pyrotechnic Eruption
Cone of Cold
Freezing Sphere
Frost Fall
Polar Ray
Spark
Lightning Bolt
Shocking Image
Chain Lightning
Faerie Fire

Emerald - Subterfuge, Range
Quickness
Bind
Quick Hit
Lullaby
Tales of Twisting Steel
Hymn of Peace
Jitterbug
Lob Shot
Rapid Fire
Rain of Arrows
Backstab
Trip
Twist the Blade
Twin Strike
Adder Strike
Shadow Walk
Viper Dart
Toxic Rupture

Sapphire - Support, Heal
Regenerate
Entangle
Dispel
Cripple
Revive
Cleanse
Holy Aura
Frost Aura
Aura of Purity
Bless
Haste
Wish
Shared Healing
Pillar of Life
Agonize
Cauldron
Fester
Charm

Just split them up, put them in tiers and you've lost the need for skill points and classes altogether. You can even forgo the leveling process if you can find a way to upgrade your characters without the need for leveling.

You can add summoning and shape-shifting in some way. They don't have to be tied to a affinity.


May 22nd, 2017, 11:01 pm
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