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 Who is What- Classic Heroes to Legends 
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Mini-Boss
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Just from Update #86- how would you build your Classic Super Dungeon Heroes into Legends?

We have 12 broad classes, and we can probably categorize each of our current heroes into one of these. But I bet some of them would be controversial (that's ok- having multiple ways to build a character can be very good).

Here's how I've split them up. What do you think? Who feels out of place?


Paladin (STR/Light)
Royal Paladin
Sebastian Cross
Silver Chavilier
Captain of the Guard
Moonspire Guardian
Von Wilding*

Black Knight (STR/Dark)
Dark Centurion
Wurmclaw Templar
Wurmclaw Exemplar
Orc Warlord
Bearstruck Berserker
Riftling Warrior
Calico Kate
Scarecrow
Von Wilder*

Fighter (STR/Spirit)
Hearthsworn Fighter
Marie Claude
Brave Mode Candy
Starguild Sapper
Questing Knight
Hidden Shrine Master
Hearthsworn Tincan

Barbarian (STR/Fae)
Clawtribe Barbarian
Deeproot Treant
Dragon Blade
Thundervale Huntress

Cleric (WILL/Light)
Sister of Light
Princess Ruby
Unicorn


Witch (WILL/Dark)
Hexcast Sorcerer
Sanctioned Witch
Outcast Succubus
Princess Amethyst

Mage (WILL/Spirit)
Ember Mage
Tabbybrook Mage
Soda Master Candy
Hidden Shrine Mystic
Codifier Kisa
Lightning Mage

Druid (WILL/Fae)
Deeproot Druid
Fae Alchemist
Mistmourn Shaman


Archer (DEX/Light)
Celestial Herald
Royal Warden

Rogue (DEX/Dark)
Riftling Rogue
Twilight Knight
Cat Burgler
Cursed Captain
Nether Assassin
Crookeye Tracker

Monk (DEX/Spirit)
Nyan Nyan
Kunoichi Candy
Koga Kola
Hidden Shrine Infiltrator
Princess Malya

Ranger (DEX/Fae)
Deeproot Scout
Princess Emerald
Wandering Minstrel
Deeproot Wolfrider
Moonspire Guardian

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May 3rd, 2017, 11:24 pm
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Minion
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Before I go on a rant I want to say this, Odin your list seems pretty accurate to me based on what they said in the update, so I am not in anyway knocking you.

Now to the actual class/hero pairing. Its so convoluted that its hard to keep up with, we have three healers (clerics) and two archers. Why even have the archer class? More will be added later? Ok I can deal with that if the next 2 or three heroes released are dex/light based.

Now lets take a look at a certain Monk, Hidden Shrine Infiltrator. According to their rules you have a Monk who dual wields pistols. Great flavor wise but why would I train my body and mind for many years just to shoot someone in the face? I know its just miniatures and you can look past its items and sculpts, but if we do that then why not be able to just choose what ever miniature you want and then assign it a class? Wouldn't it had just been easier to say here are the classes, they aren't tied to any miniature in anyway. Since you are playing legends now and using a pen & paper system then just pick your favorite miniature and that is your hero. That would had made everything cleaner. If I wanted to pick the druid miniature and make him a Rogue, why not? Then we could also use our ninja all star and rail raider miniatures.

Its just the whole class system seems over complicated if they are trying to tie them in with all the miniatures we have, unless they just tie them to certain miniatures which they said they won't, so all and all I don't know how it will work out and I just hope for the best.

I just don't understand why they didn't make the trio Warrior/Rogue/Mage and make specs you can go into to customize your class like Dragon Age? It wouldn't be unique but sometimes simplicity goes a really long way. Or you know they could do the crystal affinity thing :D

Honestly I apologize if it seems like I'm complaining way to much about this issue, but it just seems like they are making this system a lot more complicated than it really needs to be.


May 4th, 2017, 1:16 am
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Mini-Boss
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I get what you're saying. Personally, I like my character creation to have a lot of crunch to it, so I'm actually rather fond of the idea of choosing Fighter/Rogue/Wizard and also choosing one of the four power sources to go with it.


The Jobs that they've revealed look like what they've tied to specific minis- like how Glimmerdusk Ranger is a Job for a Ranger. The thing is, they haven't told us how that works very well just yet. Will you be able to create a Dark/Strength Glimmerdusk Ranger, or is that one tied to Fae and Dex only?

The Ninjas are one that I went back and forth with a bit. Part of me thinks that Ninjas are Dark, and another part thinks that they're Spirit, and a third part of me hopes that the Ninja job is available for almost every possible build (especially since I have so many Ninjas that I could make).


Also- I really wonder how accurate the names are. Is "Monk" just the name for anyone using Dex and Spirit- or does it denote a fist fighter character (presumably using DEX for defense). If it is a fist fighter, then I definitely put the Infiltrator in the wrong place- but I have other Ninja minis that'll fit in perfect as Monks (one I converted to look just like FF1 Black Belt).

Also- I'm honestly REALLY anxious to see how they deal with using alternate defense stats -a lot of the Rogues and Monks do this, and if we're looking to keep that consistent, then the Nether Assassin might move to Fae, and Wondering Minstrel needs to be a Rogue.

On a similar note, the Fae Alchemist is definitely a WILL character, and she's an elf (you may notice that I put almost every elf in the Fae category). However, is she a Druid? How does that work?

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May 4th, 2017, 3:03 am
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Consul
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The list is probably pretty accurate I imagine. There's no one I would say definitely couldn't be assigned to where you did.

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May 4th, 2017, 4:52 am
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Minion
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Samgillians wrote:
Now lets take a look at a certain Monk, Hidden Shrine Infiltrator. According to their rules you have a Monk who dual wields pistols. Great flavor wise but why would I train my body and mind for many years just to shoot someone in the face? I know its just miniatures and you can look past its items and sculpts, but if we do that then why not be able to just choose what ever miniature you want and then assign it a class? Wouldn't it had just been easier to say here are the classes, they aren't tied to any miniature in anyway. Since you are playing legends now and using a pen & paper system then just pick your favorite miniature and that is your hero. That would had made everything cleaner. If I wanted to pick the druid miniature and make him a Rogue, why not? Then we could also use our ninja all star and rail raider miniatures.


I can see what you are saying, I was wishing too they added a Samurai or Ninja Job so could break out my NAS minis (plus the Ijin would make great Riftling proxies). I hope the update post was more as an illustration of where certain existing characters fit into the Class system/what you could potentially build within that Job rather than "this is what you will play as + an extra skill or 2".

The bold part also shines up a big problem with the SDE range (for making an RPG anyways): some races are very pigeon-holed into set classes. There are 3 Dwarf minis in the range but all of them are in the "Fighter" Class, no Dex or Will based ones are out there. Either the rules reflect this and a Dwarf can only be a STR based Class, you can proxy any mini as any Class/Job or SPM has some more generic minis lined up (possibly a new Dwarf in the Halls of Lich Lord set). Same for a WILL Elf, only one I can see is the Alchemist. Or an anything Celestial, unless you really love being an archer!


May 4th, 2017, 7:52 am
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Minion
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They just gave us a lot to speculate on, and it sucks but they said the next update they'll run us through characters creation. They could have explained it in last weeks update but, it wasn't so I guess we'll have to wait.


May 4th, 2017, 9:41 am
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Consul
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I'm not sure I understand the problem with the NAS minis?
Just make the HS Infiltrator DEX/Light = Archer then.
But I also think Spirit can both mean "Dragon Ball inner ki energy" - Aaaand it can mean "I don't draw power from any particular source - I just train to become really good at what I do".
Looking at it that way it makes sense for the HS Infiltrator to use DEX because of aiming skills - and Spirit because she shoots tin cans off the fence from morning till evening.

I'll also say, don't get too caught up in the job names.
I think they are more exemplary. Barbarian doesn't mean EXACTLY barbarian, but is a short easy term for "fighter who is in tune with the primal forces".

I do however agree very much we need diversity in races! Of course we can't get everything at once. But at the very least a STR/DEX/WILL class for each race so you can make a complete party.
The Freyjans are doing it right: a STR in Nyan, DEX in Cat Burglar and 2 WILL in Kisa and Tabbybrook.

But until we know more I'm a fan of a straight up pnp style "create your own unique hero".
I just think it's what best allows people to make the characters they want to play.

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May 4th, 2017, 10:09 am
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the list is nice but there are a few I would change.

Calico Kate is a pirate and that makes her a Rogue much more then some Black Knight.

Bearstruck Berserker uh that has Barbarian in big neon lettering written all over it.

Dragon Blade has full plate armor finely made sword and a cause making him more a Paladin or Black Knight.

Unicorn to me mystical creature is either witch or druid not a religious follower.

Archer class should be absorbed into the ranger class.

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May 4th, 2017, 10:43 am
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Minion
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If they went with the 3 prime classes it could had been fine, still allow customization, still could had been pen and paper. If I was to divide these classes up it would be like this.

Warrior
---------
Battlemaster
Bushido
Berserker
Templar/Paladin
Guardian

Rogue
-------
Subterfuge
Assassin
Ninjitsu
Archery
Duelist (Monk like)
Performing (Bard)
Piracy

Mage
------
Primal - Earth & Lightning/Wind
Elemental - Cold/Water & Fire
Healing
Witchcraft
Necromancy
Evocation
Arcane
Nature
Shapeshifting
Chemisty

It isn't very balance as to how many specs can be done in the class but it does cover alot of playing styles. I'm sure you could do some padding in the classes that need it, magic has always covered tons of different things so obviously it will have a lot more. I'm not trying to change the game or convince them to, what we get is what we get.


May 4th, 2017, 10:46 am
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Minion
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Goblin-King wrote:
I'll also say, don't get too caught up in the job names.
I think they are more exemplary. Barbarian doesn't mean EXACTLY barbarian, but is a short easy term for "fighter who is in tune with the primal forces".

I do however agree very much we need diversity in races! Of course we can't get everything at once. But at the very least a STR/DEX/WILL class for each race so you can make a complete party.
The Freyjans are doing it right: a STR in Nyan, DEX in Cat Burglar and 2 WILL in Kisa and Tabbybrook.

But until we know more I'm a fan of a straight up pnp style "create your own unique hero".
I just think it's what best allows people to make the characters they want to play.


Yeah, I kinda associate the terminology for the Paladin Class as less "sword n heals" and more "physical warrior who stands up for law n order....plus some heals". As some have stated in the KS comments and here, Fae could be better coined as "Nature" or "Primal" to better layout for certain archetypes (the Orc Tracker would fit better in Ranger than Rogue).

I'm also in the P&P character creation boat. Hope it works something like:

-Pick Race, get a base set of stats (eg a Dwarf is 1B 1R STR, 2B DEX, 2B WILL, 1R 1B ARM, 5 Move, 6 Hearts, 2 Actions, 1 Potion)
-Pick Class, modifiers to stats (Paladin changes STR, ARM, WILL; Barbarian STR, Move, Hearts; Ranger DEX, Move; Cleric STR, WILL, ARM)
-Pick Job, get passives (Royal paladin Holy, Ember Mages Fire) and choose base abilities and potion/s

Then have upgrades at each level (extra stats ad hearts) and a list of abilities to choose from, either per Class or per Job depending how closely they make each Job reflect the base Class.

*sigh* Wish they would just explain how the whole of Legends will work in a general fashion rather than drip feed us info each week, leave the details till we are nearer to the beta :|


May 4th, 2017, 11:45 am
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Consul
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Samgillians wrote:
If they went with the 3 prime classes it could had been fine, still allow customization, still could had been pen and paper. If I was to divide these classes up it would be like this.

It isn't very balance as to how many specs can be done in the class but it does cover alot of playing styles. I'm sure you could do some padding in the classes that need it, magic has always covered tons of different things so obviously it will have a lot more. I'm not trying to change the game or convince them to, what we get is what we get.

For the practicability of creating characters I don't think this is neither better nor worse than the system SPM has presented.
However... I do think their system is more in tune with the in-game world of SDE.

But I do wonder if there's even a particular reason to tack the "job" on top of the class?
Why not just pick stat and power source? And then you can call yourself whatever the heck you want... I'm a poisonmancer or Warlock Avenger or B52 Bomber.
I think I would like examples better...

Instead of: (STR/Light) Job: Paladin

We got: (STR/Light) - Royal Paladin or Silver Chavilier are typical heroes of this alignment

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May 4th, 2017, 1:22 pm
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I have no issue with character creation, like I posted before in another forum is that it makes sense to make your own character. I just wished for a small system that is easy to pick up, fun and great customization (which this system may be). I don't really know how it will play out in the end, but I still feel its convoluted.

Maybe it is just my tendency to compare a western RPG to a JRPG (which I prefer the western style better). I do like classes and I like the system of everyone plays their role.

As someone posted above Archer and Ranger can be intermixed. Is there a difference though? Looking at modern fantasy classes, Aargon was a ranger, but in today's standards Legolas would be the ranger archtype. Maybe our whole socity is convoluted? :D

I'll just wait till tomorrow to see what the update brings to the table, they said they'll have some more on character creation.


May 4th, 2017, 2:03 pm
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Samgillians wrote:
I have no issue with character creation, like I posted before in another forum is that it makes sense to make your own character. I just wished for a small system that is easy to pick up, fun and great customization (which this system may be). I don't really know how it will play out in the end, but I still feel its convoluted.

Maybe it is just my tendency to compare a western RPG to a JRPG (which I prefer the western style better). I do like classes and I like the system of everyone plays their role.

As someone posted above Archer and Ranger can be intermixed. Is there a difference though? Looking at modern fantasy classes, Aargon was a ranger, but in today's standards Legolas would be the ranger archtype. Maybe our whole socity is convoluted? :D

I'll just wait till tomorrow to see what the update brings to the table, they said they'll have some more on character creation.


I dunno where the association with rangers to bows ever came from. A ranger is a survivalist, basically. Someone you can drop into the wilderness, and they won't want to leave because they already have a house, and a family and devised a small, squirrel based, economy. Bear Grylls is a ranger. Clint Barton is not (it's hard to find a famous archer people will recognize >_>).


May 4th, 2017, 2:29 pm
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Words and connotations change over time...

Nobody thinks of a paladin as one of the foremost warriors of Charlemagne's court.

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May 4th, 2017, 2:39 pm
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I think SPM went with the classifications they did to help grow a branching tree for character advancements. Nothing's saying that each miniature has to adhere to it, if it dosen't match what the player wants to play.

Say you have someone who really adores the female Paladin sculpt, but hates the skill/advancement tree for the class, but the fighter tree is more appealing. Nothing's saying that that player cant use the mini they like for the class they like. This can even go for the NPC minis we have on the way. Nicolai Ten can be a male mage, witch, or cleric should his player so choose.

Part of the core of any RPG, including Legends, is having the flexabilty for players to really make their characters their own.


May 4th, 2017, 3:18 pm
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Usagi wrote:
I dunno where the association with rangers to bows ever came from. A ranger is a survivalist, basically.

I would assume it would be the close association of hunting with bows/rifles/etc. over melee weapons.


May 4th, 2017, 3:25 pm
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Survivalist definitely fits the non-geek usage (Texas Rangers and Army Rangers are survivalists).

I tend to think our usage comes from D&D- oddly enough, I'm sure it was included as a class because of Aragorn. But they had to differentiate them from other fighters, so Rangers are allowed to either specialize in Bow or Two Weapon Fighting. Oddly enough, I think Fighters have typically been outperforming them in both styles.

I'm ok with the SDE Rangers being Dex based characters that usually fight with ranged weapons. But i still want the Archer to exist for people who want to shoot things without living off of the land.

Goblin-King wrote:
But I do wonder if there's even a particular reason to tack the "job" on top of the class?
Why not just pick stat and power source? And then you can call yourself whatever the heck you want... I'm a poisonmancer or Warlock Avenger or B52 Bomber.
I think I would like examples better...

Instead of: (STR/Light) Job: Paladin

We got: (STR/Light) - Royal Paladin or Silver Chavilier are typical heroes of this alignment


I think one of us has misunderstood the separate terms "Job" and "Class."

In my Understanding, you make a Str/Light hero- his "Class" is Paladin (ie- all Str/Light characters are Paladins). In addition to this, you choose a Job, which will give you some unique ability or stat changes.

Two of the Jobs available to Paladins are Silver Chavilier and Royal Paladin.

In that way, I think that it is definitely a good thing to track Job and Class separately. On the other hand, I'm not sure how much we need class titles- we could just use the stats and power sources instead.

In this way, I'm really hoping that there are several Jobs that are available to separate Classes- especially something like Ninja. I can really see Ninjas doing a lot of varied things.


The update did not talk about Race- which I thought was odd. I'm very curious if race is tied to Job (ie, if you're a Chaos Kitten, then you're a Tabby Brook, if you're a Hearthsworn Tincan, or Starguild Sapper then you're a Dwarf).

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Last edited by odinsgrandson on May 4th, 2017, 5:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.



May 4th, 2017, 5:16 pm
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Mini-Boss
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Goblin-King wrote:
Words and connotations change over time...

Nobody thinks of a paladin as one of the foremost warriors of Charlemagne's court.



Nobody? Honestly, my go to Paladin is Roland...

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May 4th, 2017, 5:17 pm
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Consul
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odinsgrandson wrote:
Goblin-King wrote:
But I do wonder if there's even a particular reason to tack the "job" on top of the class?
Why not just pick stat and power source? And then you can call yourself whatever the heck you want... I'm a poisonmancer or Warlock Avenger or B52 Bomber.
I think I would like examples better...

Instead of: (STR/Light) Job: Paladin

We got: (STR/Light) - Royal Paladin or Silver Chavilier are typical heroes of this alignment


I think one of us has misunderstood the separate terms "Job" and "Class."

In my Understanding, you make a Str/Light hero- his "Class" is Paladin (ie- all Str/Light characters are Paladins). In addition to this, you choose a Job, which will give you some unique ability or stat changes.

Two of the Jobs available to Paladins are Silver Chavilier and Royal Paladin.

In that way, I think that it is definitely a good thing to track Job and Class separately. On the other hand, I'm not sure how much we need class titles- we could just use the stats and power sources instead.

In this way, I'm really hoping that there are several Jobs that are available to separate Classes- especially something like Ninja. I can really see Ninjas doing a lot of varied things.


The update did not talk about Race- which I thought was odd. I'm very curious if race is tied to Job (ie, if you're a Chaos Kitten, then you're a Tabby Brook, if you're a Hearthsworn Tincan, or Starguild Sapper then you're a Dwarf).

Yeah, that's probably me bumbling around with the terms... I agree with the way you just described it.
But that's kinda a symptom of what I think is wrong with the way this is put together.
I really think they should drop one of the terms.
You pick an stat/power combination and then you pick a class that is allowed within that alignment. Why is the "double naming" system needed?

Usagi has pointed out that one of the Final Fantasy games used the term "jobs", but literally every single RPG I have played (not all, but many) that has used a term for the kind of hero you choose has used the term "class".
It's just such a common term that everybody knows what means and what to expect from it. It's like if you insisted on calling the dice "power determinators". It just creates unnecessary confusion.

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May 4th, 2017, 5:55 pm
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Job class as a whole is very common term as well.

But since I derailed the entire thread right off the rip, think it'll be possible to put a NAS hero list together? Based on the character themselves without stat cards.

I am to lazy to attempt it at the moment cause i would have to drag out all my cards.


May 4th, 2017, 6:55 pm
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