View unanswered posts | View active topics It is currently August 20th, 2017, 10:58 am



Reply to topic  [ 94 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
 Testudo Tower: A Super Dungeon Boss is NOW AVAILABLE! 
Author Message
Denizen
User avatar

Joined: July 12th, 2012, 3:49 am
Posts: 353
Goblin-King wrote:
At least it hardly matters, since in most cases you can find a legal route even if we ASSUME perpendicular (I learned a new word today) movement was illegal.
You didn't know what assume meant before today? ;)


April 16th, 2017, 4:56 pm
Profile
Minion
User avatar

Joined: September 11th, 2013, 3:03 am
Posts: 172
Hey neko, do you want to summon up a ruling for push and what's legal vs not legal pushing? Also, it's true Goblin-King, it's very difficult to be stopped by illegal movement with push as long as you think about it before hand (just keep moving on diagonals) unless you're playing really seriously (no takebacksies) and just go brain dead for a second and put it by a wall.


April 16th, 2017, 5:13 pm
Profile
Consul
User avatar

Joined: June 20th, 2012, 8:00 pm
Posts: 2628
Location: Sønderholm, Denmark
ND_nekodachi wrote:
Goblin-King wrote:
At least it hardly matters, since in most cases you can find a legal route even if we ASSUME perpendicular (I learned a new word today) movement was illegal.
You didn't know what assume meant before today? ;)

badum tsssh! :lol:

Now you MUST summon an ruling!

_________________
I'm Super Dungeon Excite!
Super Dungeon Explore Compendium


April 16th, 2017, 5:23 pm
Profile WWW
Ninja Corps
User avatar

Joined: March 25th, 2012, 9:44 pm
Posts: 2272
A good way to think of push (since I don't have a good way to graphically represent this) s to think of an old style cone AOE (or spray, i can't remember what it was called). themodel being pushed/thrown will only be able to move within this cone, and must always move to the next, bigger, tier of the cone with each move. This effectively gives it 3 options to move with each movement (assuming an open board).

If walls/structures/models block all 3 of those move options, you're forced to stop (if the case of throw, moving next to a model will stop you automatically). If any options are open, you may move the target model into that space. The distance pushed is optional (i believe) so if you push something for a value of 6, you move it up to 6, not mandatory 6 (i may be wrong on this one, I'm going from memory). Line of sight has zero effect on where the model may be pushed to. LOS only affects the action which caused the push, not the resulting push. The same goes for compel and, though the situations where it would actually happen are less common, pull. once yu move from attack to forced movement, the LOS no longer has any impact. you can push eyond corners, even if you can't see there, the movements are still legal.


April 16th, 2017, 7:54 pm
Profile
Consul
User avatar

Joined: June 20th, 2012, 8:00 pm
Posts: 2628
Location: Sønderholm, Denmark
Usagi wrote:
A good way to think of push (since I don't have a good way to graphically represent this) s to think of an old style cone AOE (or spray, i can't remember what it was called). themodel being pushed/thrown will only be able to move within this cone, and must always move to the next, bigger, tier of the cone with each move. This effectively gives it 3 options to move with each movement (assuming an open board).

The cone is not correct. If we can agree you can control the thrown model you'll be able to move it out of any given cone. See drawing C. If it keeps moving it will leave the initial cone.
I get your concept though. It should just be "aura" circles/squares instead. Always three options but you must move to the next ring.

But now that I think about it... Does a situation even exist where you would want to make the perpendicular move and not just move diagonally?
In drawing B, if you could move to where the shell is right now. And you could move to the green up-arrow. Wouldn't you always be able to just have moved there diagonally in the first place?

Usagi wrote:
The distance pushed is optional (i believe) so if you push something for a value of 6, you move it up to 6, not mandatory 6 (i may be wrong on this one, I'm going from memory) Line of sight has zero effect on where the model may be pushed to. LOS only affects the action which caused the push, not the resulting push. The same goes for compel and, though the situations where it would actually happen are less common, pull. once yu move from attack to forced movement, the LOS no longer has any impact. you can push eyond corners, even if you can't see there, the movements are still legal.

All of this ^

_________________
I'm Super Dungeon Excite!
Super Dungeon Explore Compendium


April 16th, 2017, 9:10 pm
Profile WWW
Minion
User avatar

Joined: January 19th, 2013, 10:34 pm
Posts: 188
Goblin-King wrote:
Usagi wrote:
A good way to think of push (since I don't have a good way to graphically represent this) s to think of an old style cone AOE (or spray, i can't remember what it was called). themodel being pushed/thrown will only be able to move within this cone, and must always move to the next, bigger, tier of the cone with each move. This effectively gives it 3 options to move with each movement (assuming an open board).


The cone is not correct. If we can agree you can control the thrown model you'll be able to move it out of any given cone. See drawing C. If it keeps moving it will leave the initial cone.
I get your concept though. It should just be "aura" circles/squares instead. Always three options but you must move to the next ring.


I think a cone like shape is accurate. In C, the shell is moving perpendicular to the direction it was going. Each move has to move it further away from it's start. The perpendicular moves don't increase the distance, at least not in SDE measurement terms.

I dunno if this will help or confuse, but range bands in SDE are squares, not circles, because diagonals cost the same as horizontal and vertical moves (orthagonal). So if you need to move away you have to move into the next larger square drawn around your source, not continue moving in the same square.

Or maybe the issue is that you are factoring the wall into the distance calculation? The distance here is not movement distance, but just absolute distance as if you were to ignore LOS. I agree it has taken the shell more movement to get to those perpendicular tiles, but those tiles are not further away if one were to use some kind of effect that ignores LOS to find range to the original square.


April 16th, 2017, 9:43 pm
Profile
Denizen
User avatar

Joined: July 5th, 2012, 2:03 pm
Posts: 417
Goblin-King wrote:
Okay, I see what you mean now...

Actual distance ≠ minimum squares needed to move there

it does:
Image


Image
Each square in a colored ring is the same distance from the black square as every other square of the same color. For Push/Throw, each move must take the target into the next ring. You can still bend the path, just not as obliquely as the previous examples.


April 16th, 2017, 10:09 pm
Profile
Consul
User avatar

Joined: June 20th, 2012, 8:00 pm
Posts: 2628
Location: Sønderholm, Denmark
Now that I tried illustrating it myself I don't think neither the cone nor squares/ring method is correct.
The shell could even continue South along ring #6
Image

Quote:
In C, the shell is moving perpendicular to the direction it was going

That's irrelevant. It only matters if it tries to make an perpendicular move relative to it's current+previous location. All locations before that don't matter as long as it's in a direction that increases the distance.
The reason it supposedly shouldn't be able to do this is because if a model were to follow in it's footsteps it should use an equal amount of movement points to reach either squares, meaning the shell didn't increase it's distance.

_________________
I'm Super Dungeon Excite!
Super Dungeon Explore Compendium


April 16th, 2017, 10:17 pm
Profile WWW
Minion
User avatar

Joined: January 19th, 2013, 10:34 pm
Posts: 188
Goblin-King wrote:
Now that I tried illustrating it myself I don't think neither the cone nor squares/ring method is correct.
The shell could even continue South along ring #6
Image

Quote:
In C, the shell is moving perpendicular to the direction it was going

That's irrelevant. It only matters if it tries to make an perpendicular move relative to it's current+previous location. All locations before that don't matter as long as it's in a direction that increases the distance.
The reason it supposedly shouldn't be able to do this is because if a model were to follow in it's footsteps it should use an equal amount of movement points to reach either squares, meaning the shell didn't increase it's distance.


The 4th space moved is illegal. The distance from space 3 is 3. The distance from space 4 is also 3.


April 16th, 2017, 10:41 pm
Profile
Consul
User avatar

Joined: June 20th, 2012, 8:00 pm
Posts: 2628
Location: Sønderholm, Denmark
Just so we are clear...
The face is the monster using the throw attack.
The green shell is the one being thrown.
The shell directly south of the face is it's start position.

So you are telling me from this setup he cant throw the shell directly east (→)?
That really makes me think the intention is actually physical distance where a diagonal square is further away than an orthogonal.

_________________
I'm Super Dungeon Excite!
Super Dungeon Explore Compendium


April 16th, 2017, 10:53 pm
Profile WWW
Denizen
User avatar

Joined: July 5th, 2012, 2:03 pm
Posts: 417
Goblin-King wrote:
Now that I tried illustrating it myself I don't think neither the cone nor squares/ring method is correct.
The shell could even continue South along ring #6
Image

No it can't, everything on ring 6 can be reached by moving no more than 6 spaces, to increase the distance it has to move to ring 7. Also, you have 2 spots at distance 3. The 4th face you put couldn't have moved out of the cone you have as the move didn't increase the distance.
Think of it as Wave X. If it's in an area where wave 1 would hit it, it would have to move in such a way that wave 2 would hit it but Wave 1 would not. Wave 2 would move to wave 3, wave 3 to wave 4, etc. creating concentric rings. Of course, the rings are for visualizing any target you might have, if you limit to a specific target, its possible moves will create a cone behind it, relative to the attacker,


April 16th, 2017, 11:01 pm
Profile
Minion
User avatar

Joined: January 19th, 2013, 10:34 pm
Posts: 188
Goblin-King wrote:
Just so we are clear...
The face is the monster using the throw attack.
The green shell is the one being thrown.
The shell directly south of the face is it's start position.

So you are telling me from this setup he cant throw the shell directly east (→)?
That really makes me think the intention is actually physical distance where a diagonal square is further away than an orthogonal.


Yeah, in that setup, the first move the shell makes couldn't be east as that would not be moving it farther away. Both it's start tile and the east tile would be 1 tile away from the monster.


April 17th, 2017, 12:26 am
Profile
Mini-Boss
User avatar

Joined: November 29th, 2013, 7:12 am
Posts: 645
Goblin-King wrote:
Now that I tried illustrating it myself I don't think neither the cone nor squares/ring method is correct.
The shell could even continue South along ring #6
Image

Quote:
In C, the shell is moving perpendicular to the direction it was going

That's irrelevant. It only matters if it tries to make an perpendicular move relative to it's current+previous location. All locations before that don't matter as long as it's in a direction that increases the distance.
The reason it supposedly shouldn't be able to do this is because if a model were to follow in it's footsteps it should use an equal amount of movement points to reach either squares, meaning the shell didn't increase it's distance.


i have always used the cone. stay in the cone but still move away.


April 17th, 2017, 2:20 am
Profile
Denizen
User avatar

Joined: May 15th, 2015, 9:39 am
Posts: 321
Location: Land of OZ
hey Goblin King, now use this quote to di-sect situations...

"Assumption is the Mother of ALL !SODA! ups"

hahahahaha, its true tho. lol.


April 17th, 2017, 5:43 am
Profile
Minion
User avatar

Joined: September 11th, 2013, 3:03 am
Posts: 172
I think the turtles are even more scary now with the bonus shell defense, and that crusher and testudo can bring back turtles from those shells, they are becoming even better for stalling, and they were good at that to begin with.


April 17th, 2017, 6:25 am
Profile
Ninja Corps
User avatar

Joined: May 26th, 2012, 6:17 pm
Posts: 908
So I was demoing SDE: Arena at Sakura Con and I had Turtle vs Flames and they held there own. They needed some set up but once they got going the combo of Rollers/Crusher and turtle shells wrecked all types of havoc. Pairing them with a hero that has some type of defensive skill like the exemplar and they become a solid force.

-ape2020

_________________
WHERE ARE THE DEMONS!?
BRING ON THE PAIN!!


April 17th, 2017, 1:58 pm
Profile
Denizen
User avatar

Joined: July 12th, 2012, 3:49 am
Posts: 353
Wow. You guys have been at this all weekend.

I have asked Ninja Justin to pop in and give an official answer.


April 17th, 2017, 2:26 pm
Profile
Employee
User avatar

Joined: August 22nd, 2016, 6:01 pm
Posts: 612
Just going to quote some rules here:

"Throw X: When using an action with Throw, choose one friendly adjacent model. Move that model a number of squares up to the value of X, using the rules for Push. If the model moves to a square that is adjacent to another model, it immediately stops moving. Every model it stops adjacent to, friendly or enemy, suffers an offense roll of 1B per square the model moved."

"PUSH X
A model targeted by Push may be moved a number of squares up to the value of X away from the model using Push. Each square moved must increase the distance between the two models. If the target model cannot be moved further away, such as from contact with a wall, the model immediately stops."

For a diagram of Push, please see pg. 29 of the Forgotten King rules (as we sadly do not have 2.0 yet).

Official answers on a few things:

1) Yes, Turtle Tosser is supposed to be a Red Button action. Throw states the enemies suffer an offense roll, but not what the results of that roll will be. Because Turtle Tosser is a red button action with knockdown, the models would suffer 1 wound and knockdown. It effectively has Throw to determine the dice rolled instead of a stat such as melee, magic, etc. However, actions with Throw have no target, much in the same way actions with Wave have no target. When using Wave, whatever is close enough gets hit. When using Throw, whatever the pushed model stops near gets hit.

2) No, the model being pushed by Throw does not suffer damage due to Throw. It is not adjacent to itself.

3) Pushes do not need to be in a straight line, and they may move a model out of LoS. The only stipulation on Push is that "Each square moved must increase the distance between the two models." This means that each new square the model occupies will have different stipulations on the next square moved. Yes, models may be made to "zig zag" so long as each new square moved is farther than the last square moved. Distance in SDE is determined by squares. So if a model is 3 squares from the model which Threw it, the next move in its Push MUST be to a square that is 4 squares from the model that threw it. So long as the new square is one square farther in range than the last square, the move is legal.

4) Yes, Push is "up to" so a model with Throw 6 may push the Thrown model fewer than 6 squares if it so chooses.

Hope this clears things up. :)

_________________
The Demogorgon tires of your silly human bickering!

Email: justin.gibbs@ninjadivision.com


April 17th, 2017, 2:28 pm
Profile
Employee
User avatar

Joined: August 22nd, 2016, 6:01 pm
Posts: 612
homedrone wrote:
Goblin-King wrote:
Now that I tried illustrating it myself I don't think neither the cone nor squares/ring method is correct.
The shell could even continue South along ring #6
Image

Quote:
In C, the shell is moving perpendicular to the direction it was going

That's irrelevant. It only matters if it tries to make an perpendicular move relative to it's current+previous location. All locations before that don't matter as long as it's in a direction that increases the distance.
The reason it supposedly shouldn't be able to do this is because if a model were to follow in it's footsteps it should use an equal amount of movement points to reach either squares, meaning the shell didn't increase it's distance.


The 4th space moved is illegal. The distance from space 3 is 3. The distance from space 4 is also 3.


This is correct, the 4th move is illegal. Each move must increase the distance between the two models.

An easy way to visualize it may be to say that there are always exactly three** legal moves, the three spaces "in front" of the model (assuming the throwing model is "behind it" to determine which side is the front.)


**Three, assuming of course that none of those squares are occupied by something else, which would reduce the number of legal spaces. But there are never more than three legal moves for a model being pushed.

_________________
The Demogorgon tires of your silly human bickering!

Email: justin.gibbs@ninjadivision.com


April 17th, 2017, 2:29 pm
Profile
Mini-Boss
User avatar

Joined: May 15th, 2014, 9:10 am
Posts: 537
O just realised that you could hit two or even three clustered heroes with one shell. Neat.

_________________
I claim the right to be unhappy


April 17th, 2017, 3:30 pm
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic   [ 94 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
Designed by STSoftware.