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Minion
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Goblin-King wrote:
I DO wonder if it would be legal to throw around a wall.

_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|
_|T|X|X|_|_|_|_|
o|o|o|o|X|_|_|_|
E|X|X|X|_|_|_|_|
_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|
_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|

If you count distance as squares a model would need to move it's legal.
But if distance is measured purely in squares, ignoring everything else, it's illegal...


That's also not a legal move because throw says "once you hit a wall" ie, once you touch a wall from anywhere, you stop, so you'd only hit yourself since the "ammo" would instantly hit the wall you're adjacent to.

Like I said, the Rocktops and throw are a mess.


April 16th, 2017, 12:33 pm
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Minion
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insider714 wrote:
Goblin-King wrote:
I DO wonder if it would be legal to throw around a wall.

_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|
_|T|X|X|_|_|_|_|
o|o|o|o|X|_|_|_|
E|X|X|X|_|_|_|_|
_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|
_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|

If you count distance as squares a model would need to move it's legal.
But if distance is measured purely in squares, ignoring everything else, it's illegal...


That's also not a legal move because throw says "once you hit a wall" ie, once you touch a wall from anywhere, you stop, so you'd only hit yourself since the "ammo" would instantly hit the wall you're adjacent to.

Like I said, the Rocktops and throw are a mess.


Were does throw say once you hit a wall?

Throw X: When using an action with Throw, choose one friendly adjacent model. Move that model a number of squares up to the value of X, using the rules for Push. If the model moves to a square that is adjacent to another model, it immediately stops moving. Every model it stops adjacent to, friendly or enemy, suffers an offense roll of +1B per square the model moved.


April 16th, 2017, 12:51 pm
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Minion
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Doma0997 wrote:
insider714 wrote:
Goblin-King wrote:
I DO wonder if it would be legal to throw around a wall.

_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|
_|T|X|X|_|_|_|_|
o|o|o|o|X|_|_|_|
E|X|X|X|_|_|_|_|
_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|
_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|

If you count distance as squares a model would need to move it's legal.
But if distance is measured purely in squares, ignoring everything else, it's illegal...


That's also not a legal move because throw says "once you hit a wall" ie, once you touch a wall from anywhere, you stop, so you'd only hit yourself since the "ammo" would instantly hit the wall you're adjacent to.

Like I said, the Rocktops and throw are a mess.


Were does throw say once you hit a wall?

Throw X: When using an action with Throw, choose one friendly adjacent model. Move that model a number of squares up to the value of X, using the rules for Push. If the model moves to a square that is adjacent to another model, it immediately stops moving. Every model it stops adjacent to, friendly or enemy, suffers an offense roll of +1B per square the model moved.


Per latest rules in the Super Dungeon Arena Booklet:

Pus X
"A model targeted bp Push may be moved a number of squares up to the value of X away from the model using Push. Each square moved must increase the distance between the two models. If the target model cannot be moved further away, such as from contact with a wall, the model immediately stops."

I can't scan a picture of it doe.


April 16th, 2017, 1:00 pm
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I'm beginning to understand why you have such low regard for the turtles if you play with no navigation and them being stopped by touching walls. They'd be !SODA! impossible to utilize!

Your quote from the rules is meant to prevent the model moving through walls. But when you are allowed to navigate this only becomes an issue if you throw the ammo into a corner where it can't move anywhere to increase it's distance. I can see how the wording "contact" is ambiguous, but I'm certain in the RAI you are allowed to throw parallel with a wall.

The "round the wall" example is a bit more sketchy because the overview measured distance decreases by the last 3 squares moved.
But you could certainly throw around a corner → → → ↓ ↓ ↓

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April 16th, 2017, 1:18 pm
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Minion
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It's specifically saying though that if the wall is stopping it from moving further away, then it becomes an issue. However if there is a legal move that still pushes it a space further, you can continue to move the model. The issue would arise when the model comes to a straight wall that no longer allows it to have a legal move that puts it one space further away.

ninja'd by goblin-king, but I'll post anyway.


April 16th, 2017, 1:20 pm
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Goblin-King wrote:
I'm beginning to understand why you have such low regard for the turtles if you play with no navigation and them being stopped by touching walls. They'd be !SODA! impossible to utilize!

Your quote from the rules is meant to prevent the model moving through walls. But when you are allowed to navigate this only becomes an issue if you throw the ammo into a corner where it can't move anywhere to increase it's distance. I can see how the wording "contact" is ambiguous, but I'm certain in the RAI you are allowed to throw parallel with a wall.

The "round the wall" example is a bit more sketchy because the overview measured distance decreases by the last 3 squares moved.
But you could certainly throw around a corner → → → ↓ ↓ ↓


But can you? Because more ambiguity via "Line of sight" rules

1) Determine line of sight
Models require line of sight to target another model.
A model has line of sight when it can draw at least one straight line from any point of its square to any point of it's square to any point on the intended target's square. The line cannot contact walls, structures, or enemy models, including where these elements meet on a corner.

It's stuff like that that makes it ambiguous to me, because, if a hero is around a corner, does the shell stop first for touching the wall? does it hit the hero or model behind it?

"Place" would just be cleaner. Wouldn't have to worry about line of sight (which again, not sure how things like pounce works with new line of sight rules #noclarification) and things like what would stop a turtle shell from hitting the corner, because with so many ambiguous terms, or maps that have corners that extend 1/3 of the way into the next square over, it's dicey. All that confusion for 3-f skulls of activation. Old turtles were definately better with he controlled "shelling" for crusher setups, but now, they just cumbersome.


April 16th, 2017, 2:04 pm
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This image shows stuff that's allowed.
Image

It's true you need LoS to target something, but the shell/ammo is the thing being targeted - Not the models it potentially hits.
It might feel wrong to throw around a corner but these are the abstractions of the game.
In real life people wouldn't stand in a grid and take turns hitting each other either ;)

Target visible adjacent model.
Move it up to 6 squares.
Each square must increase the distance.
If it touches another model it stops.
If it can't move to a square without increasing it's distance it stops.

These are the rules. Nothing more nothing less.

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April 16th, 2017, 2:44 pm
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insider714 wrote:
But can you? Because more ambiguity via "Line of sight" rules

1) Determine line of sight
Models require line of sight to target another model.
A model has line of sight when it can draw at least one straight line from any point of its square to any point of it's square to any point on the intended target's square. The line cannot contact walls, structures, or enemy models, including where these elements meet on a corner.

In this case, the target is the thrown model, not the hero said model is moved to.


April 16th, 2017, 2:46 pm
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Goblin-King wrote:
This image shows stuff that's allowed.
Image

It's true you need LoS to target something, but the shell/ammo is the thing being targeted - Not the models it potentially hits.
It might feel wrong to throw around a corner but these are the abstractions of the game.
In real life people wouldn't stand in a grid and take turns hitting each other either ;)

Target visible adjacent model.
Move it up to 6 squares.
Each square must increase the distance.
If it touches another model it stops.
If it can't move to a square without increasing it's distance it stops.

These are the rules. Nothing more nothing less.

B and D aren't actually 100% accurate. Where the green faces are, moving up or down doesn't increase the spaces between it and the blue face.


April 16th, 2017, 2:56 pm
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Imriel wrote:
B and D aren't actually 100% accurate. Where the green faces are, moving up or down doesn't increase the spaces between it and the blue face.

*sceptical look*

I don't see it... Why not?

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April 16th, 2017, 3:05 pm
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Well in B's picture, from where you have the shell in the final spot it is 4 spaces away. Going up or down still leads it to being 4 spaces away because of the diagonal. D is the same way.


April 16th, 2017, 3:11 pm
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That's my take as well, you can't go perpendicular when you have to increase distance. Even C has some perpendicular movement.


April 16th, 2017, 3:17 pm
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Doma0997 wrote:
Well in B's picture, from where you have the shell in the final spot it is 4 spaces away. Going up or down still leads it to being 4 spaces away because of the diagonal. D is the same way.


^This


April 16th, 2017, 3:20 pm
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insider714 wrote:
Doma0997 wrote:
Well in B's picture, from where you have the shell in the final spot it is 4 spaces away. Going up or down still leads it to being 4 spaces away because of the diagonal. D is the same way.


^This


Agreed. The 'distance' between the model and the fired thing is the same. In D the model doesn't actually have to stop though, it could go around our adversary to rack up more damage.

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April 16th, 2017, 4:14 pm
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In D, because of the way the shell was moved on that 3rd movement, it will have to stop, as it can no longer go up (will still be 3 spaces away) and proceeding forward forces it to stop as a throw must end when adjacent to a model (as it moves space by space. the reasoning it says move instead of place is so it can restrict movement by checking adjacency after each move.) However, had it gone diagonally on that third movement, it would have worked out a little better, getting 5B instead of 4B


April 16th, 2017, 4:27 pm
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Okay, I see what you mean now...

Actual distance ≠ minimum squares needed to move there

I'm in doubt now. I'm not convinced on either rulings. They both make sense.
I'd say this needs an official ruling (though it seems I'm in the minority here) - and perhaps a couple examples in the new rulebook (if it hasn't gone to the press!).

Clawandbyte wrote:
Agreed. The 'distance' between the model and the fired thing is the same. In D the model doesn't actually have to stop though, it could go around our adversary to rack up more damage.

This I don't agree with at all. If it doesn't hit when adjacent to an enemy model, when does it?

(good discussion though guys :D )

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April 16th, 2017, 4:32 pm
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Doma0997 wrote:
In D, because of the way the shell was moved on that 3rd movement, it will have to stop, as it can no longer go up (will still be 3 spaces away) and proceeding forward forces it to stop as a throw must end when adjacent to a model (as it moves space by space. the reasoning it says move instead of place is so it can restrict movement by checking adjacency after each move.) However, had it gone diagonally on that third movement, it would have worked out a little better, getting 5B instead of 4B


Oh I understand the concept of why it says "move" instead of "place" but "place" is just cleaner and easier to count out squares from point A to point B without all the cumbesome movement penalties for the skull value cost you are paying. 3 skulls for 3 blue dice isn't really worth it, because blue dice, unfortunately suck, and late game, since you don't add your attack value to the throw mechanic, if you're repping turtles with an average throw value of 3 blue dice while heroes are probably rolling defence of at LEAST 3 blue plus some armor (for those hardcore strategists) they're just wasted skullpoints at that point.


April 16th, 2017, 4:35 pm
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Goblin-King wrote:
Okay, I see what you mean now...

Actual distance ≠ minimum squares needed to move there

I'm in doubt now. I'm not convinced on either rulings. They both make sense.
I'd say this needs an official ruling (though it seems I'm in the minority here) - and perhaps a couple examples in the new rulebook (if it hasn't gone to the press!).

Clawandbyte wrote:
Agreed. The 'distance' between the model and the fired thing is the same. In D the model doesn't actually have to stop though, it could go around our adversary to rack up more damage.

This I don't agree with at all. If it doesn't hit when adjacent to an enemy model, when does it?

(good discussion though guys :D )


I'd have to go with the push rules on this one. It says you must increase the distance between the pusher and the pushee, which would be actual distance. If you continue to go straight, because movement also goes diagonal in this game, you could never push perpendicularly. If it was orthogonal movement only however, it would be a legal move, but that dastardly diagonal means that going in a perpendicular direction does not increase actual distance between the two figures.


April 16th, 2017, 4:42 pm
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Goblin-King wrote:
Okay, I see what you mean now...

Actual distance ≠ minimum squares needed to move there

I'm in doubt now. I'm not convinced on either rulings. They both make sense.
I'd say this needs an official ruling (though it seems I'm in the minority here) - and perhaps a couple examples in the new rulebook (if it hasn't gone to the press!).

Clawandbyte wrote:
Agreed. The 'distance' between the model and the fired thing is the same. In D the model doesn't actually have to stop though, it could go around our adversary to rack up more damage.

This I don't agree with at all. If it doesn't hit when adjacent to an enemy model, when does it?

(good discussion though guys :D )


Oh, you're right. I missed the part in the description of throw where it says to stop when it moves adjacent to an enemy (I assumed it just stopped when you chose to stop moving or ran out of spaces to push)

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April 16th, 2017, 4:46 pm
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At least it hardly matters, since in most cases you can find a legal route even if we ASSUME perpendicular (I learned a new word today) movement was illegal.
Still like to hear an official ruling though...

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April 16th, 2017, 4:51 pm
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