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Consul
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insider714 wrote:
The Rocktops in general were always kind of a sloppy design; they're outshined by so many other monsters and don't have much practical utility at this point, unless you can land them with "Grabby" or something from another spawn point.

In V.1 I considered them one of the stronger spawnpoints. But they were a bit "advanced" to use though.

insider714 wrote:
A) the Slowpokes should've been the only Rocktop with a shell form. It would've been cleaner. With the inclusion of "forced shifts" slopokes should've been hit into a "forced shift" to their shell form, but the shell form should've been able to shapeshift back into a slopoke, i.e. almost mini Kingsprouts that can shift back. That way, it's a tradeoff: they have limited mobility, but have survivability and you have to spend a turn to reactivate them to get them back to fighting form. The average seasoned SDE veteran can just stay out of slowpoke range and pick them off one by one.
In V.1 I agree only slowpokes should have had shells. Since FK shells are the remains of dead turtles so it doesn't matter as much now. It's not a "shift" anymore.

B) "throw" or any mechanic thereof needs to be redesignd to include the "thrower's" attack roll in the attack. Lobbing your allies at the expense of the "ammo" taking a wound should at LEAST grant the added bonus of having a higher attack value, otherwise why waste essentially 2 units to try and set up 1 attack with all blue dice, which are garbage anyways. Couple that with the twisting corridors of new tile setups and "throw" strategies just aren't viable, and rocktops don't have the mobility to just attack heroes normally. PLUS with this method combined with my pervious idea for the slowpokes, a slowpoke in normal form could take damage from being thrown to turn into a shell and still have some longevity, thus removing the mobility problem. It's all about synergy.

It's true "throw" attacks are a pretty hard combo to pull off. But then again you can move a model so it's exactly 6 squares away from the enemy and then throw it. 6 blue dice is a good attack.

I'm not entirely certain the ammo-model takes a hit though... Bombardier explicitly tells you to destroy the model afterwards.
But I'm a bit miffed by the fact that it's a red button. Despite obviously being an offensive action, it feels like it should have been a blue action.
You don't make an attack roll (I think). The attack roll comes as a result of the thrown model reaching it's goal.
I don't think you are supposed to attack the ammo before throwing it.
But the definition of red button actions are pretty much that you have to make an successful offensive roll to pull it of...

Am I getting this wrong? Anyone?

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April 14th, 2017, 9:04 pm
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Bottle Cap
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Is there any other monster with sturdy as an ability?

This boss can be really hard to beat if the hero team does not have a strong melee hero.


April 14th, 2017, 9:31 pm
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By the way Neko, is there any chance you can share information about when we can expect to get some more information about Hall of the Livhe King? ;) Testsudo Tower looks really nice, but HofLK is also exciting... judging from the name ^^.


April 14th, 2017, 9:46 pm
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Minion
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Goblin-King wrote:
insider714 wrote:
The Rocktops in general were always kind of a sloppy design; they're outshined by so many other monsters and don't have much practical utility at this point, unless you can land them with "Grabby" or something from another spawn point.

In V.1 I considered them one of the stronger spawnpoints. But they were a bit "advanced" to use though.

insider714 wrote:
A) the Slowpokes should've been the only Rocktop with a shell form. It would've been cleaner. With the inclusion of "forced shifts" slopokes should've been hit into a "forced shift" to their shell form, but the shell form should've been able to shapeshift back into a slopoke, i.e. almost mini Kingsprouts that can shift back. That way, it's a tradeoff: they have limited mobility, but have survivability and you have to spend a turn to reactivate them to get them back to fighting form. The average seasoned SDE veteran can just stay out of slowpoke range and pick them off one by one.
In V.1 I agree only slowpokes should have had shells. Since FK shells are the remains of dead turtles so it doesn't matter as much now. It's not a "shift" anymore.

B) "throw" or any mechanic thereof needs to be redesignd to include the "thrower's" attack roll in the attack. Lobbing your allies at the expense of the "ammo" taking a wound should at LEAST grant the added bonus of having a higher attack value, otherwise why waste essentially 2 units to try and set up 1 attack with all blue dice, which are garbage anyways. Couple that with the twisting corridors of new tile setups and "throw" strategies just aren't viable, and rocktops don't have the mobility to just attack heroes normally. PLUS with this method combined with my pervious idea for the slowpokes, a slowpoke in normal form could take damage from being thrown to turn into a shell and still have some longevity, thus removing the mobility problem. It's all about synergy.

It's true "throw" attacks are a pretty hard combo to pull off. But then again you can move a model so it's exactly 6 squares away from the enemy and then throw it. 6 blue dice is a good attack.

I'm not entirely certain the ammo-model takes a hit though... Bombardier explicitly tells you to destroy the model afterwards.
But I'm a bit miffed by the fact that it's a red button. Despite obviously being an offensive action, it feels like it should have been a blue action.
You don't make an attack roll (I think). The attack roll comes as a result of the thrown model reaching it's goal.
I don't think you are supposed to attack the ammo before throwing it.
But the definition of red button actions are pretty much that you have to make an successful offensive roll to pull it of...

Am I getting this wrong? Anyone?


If you look at "Thwack" It's labeled as a red offensive action and a "friendly damage skull" icon throw x reads:
When using an action with throw, choose one friendly adjacent model. Push that model equal o a number of squares to the value of x. as described in the rules for push. If the model moves to a square that is adjacent to another model it stops adjacent to. friendly or enemy, suffers an offense roll of 1 per square the model moved.

That's the written description of throw. So at the cost of a minimum of 3 Skull points (minimum of the 4 you get a turn) you get to make 1 attack of *possibly* 6 blue dice assuming a) you can move far enough away from the target to make that work (most rocktops move 5, rollers move 6) to push a model up to 6 squares assuming it has line of sight (obstructions galore with new tiles) and there's no heroes obstructing (could result in a, say, 2 square push possibly) and it assumingly kills the unit you pushed because it hits all creatures friendly and enemy (it doesn't say it excludes the pushed model, so i would assume the pushed model counts as in the "blast radius") and you still have to roll all blue dice which, each have a 50% hit ratio, wheras, just dice pool wise, you get kobolds who move z (sometimes with reach) and get an average bonus of +4 on each attack already consisting of, what, 3 blue dice? THEM'S some odds.

What MIGHT make up for the cumbersome throw abilities are:
A) you PLACE the target thrown model where you want within that reach. Alleviates obscuring models, and, while not paying homage to mario, DOES make more sense for a "throw" mechanic and would make the limited dice pool a little less stinging when you spent all that setup time and miss

B) Throw should be able to target enemies as well. Harder to get up to them, for sure, but as a red offensive action it would def make the turtles more formidable and dynamic

All and all, the turtles as they currently are are "Easy mode"


April 14th, 2017, 10:19 pm
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Consul
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I believe push allows you to "zig-zag".
iirc you just have to move the pushed model to a square that's farther away from you. That allows for some shenanigans.

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April 14th, 2017, 11:19 pm
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Goblin-King wrote:
I believe push allows you to "zig-zag".
iirc you just have to move the pushed model to a square that's farther away from you. That allows for some shenanigans.


Per most current rules (Arena) it says "must increase the distance, so i don't think you can maneuver it around anything on account of the distance would not be increased (I.e you can't "hookshot it around a model in front of you to have it "boomerang" around one model into another model behind the first) Per the example, you can angle it, but once it starts heading in a direction, it has to go that way.


April 14th, 2017, 11:28 pm
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Minion
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ND_nekodachi wrote:
Testudo Tower
- Turtle Tosser: Throw 6

Demolitions Expert
- Toss Me: If this action is targeted by an action with Throw, after resolving the results of the action, destroy this model. Volatile is triggered by Toss Me


Throw X: ... Every model it stops adjacent to, friendly or enemy, suffers an offense roll of (+1 blue die) per square the model moved.

Volatile: When a model with Volatile is destoyed, before removing the model, resolve the following: (Red button) Wave 1, (+2 Red die) STR


So if Testudo Tower uses Turtle Tosser to throw a Demolition Expert, the target will take damage. The Demolition Expert will then explode, possibly causing more damage.


Ahh Groovy :) Thanks Neko and Doma. Without the description of Throw, I was interpreting it as just a tag on the attack to trigger 'Toss Me'. Hopefully I'd have figured it out if Throw is described on the back of his card.


April 15th, 2017, 2:44 am
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Consul
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insider714 wrote:
Goblin-King wrote:
I believe push allows you to "zig-zag".
iirc you just have to move the pushed model to a square that's farther away from you. That allows for some shenanigans.


Per most current rules (Arena) it says "must increase the distance, so i don't think you can maneuver it around anything on account of the distance would not be increased (I.e you can't "hookshot it around a model in front of you to have it "boomerang" around one model into another model behind the first) Per the example, you can angle it, but once it starts heading in a direction, it has to go that way.

RAW "must increase distance" allows for shenanigans. Being locked in a direction is just you applying logic to the game - it's not written anywhere.

T = Thrower
X = Ammo route
O = Obstacle
E = Enemy

_|_|_|T|_|_|_|_|
_|_|_|X|_|_|_|_|
_|_|_|_|X|_|_|_|
_|_|_|_|_|X|_|_|
_|_|_|O|_|_|X|_|
_|_|_|_|_|X|_|_|
_|_|_|_|X|_|_|_|
_|_|_|E|_|_|_|_|

As far as I'm concerned this is a legal move.
It's not going in a straight line, but the distance from the thrower is always increasing.

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April 15th, 2017, 6:46 am
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Minion
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I believe that's always been a legal move for push, and a funny one at that. While pushing it doesn't make too much sense other than you're controlling their movement (you can somehow curveball that monster/hero) but with blasting shells it makes more sense to me because you can change trajectory to get a curve, or they are moving along the floor and bouncing into things.


April 15th, 2017, 11:57 am
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Denizen
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Goblin-King wrote:
insider714 wrote:
Goblin-King wrote:
I believe push allows you to "zig-zag".
iirc you just have to move the pushed model to a square that's farther away from you. That allows for some shenanigans.


Per most current rules (Arena) it says "must increase the distance, so i don't think you can maneuver it around anything on account of the distance would not be increased (I.e you can't "hookshot it around a model in front of you to have it "boomerang" around one model into another model behind the first) Per the example, you can angle it, but once it starts heading in a direction, it has to go that way.

RAW "must increase distance" allows for shenanigans. Being locked in a direction is just you applying logic to the game - it's not written anywhere.

T = Thrower
X = Ammo route
O = Obstacle
E = Enemy

_|_|_|T|_|_|_|_|
_|_|_|X|_|_|_|_|
_|_|_|_|X|_|_|_|
_|_|_|_|_|X|_|_|
_|_|_|O|_|_|X|_|
_|_|_|_|_|X|_|_|
_|_|_|_|X|_|_|_|
_|_|_|E|_|_|_|_|

As far as I'm concerned this is a legal move.
It's not going in a straight line, but the distance from the thrower is always increasing.


That is certainly a legal move. I kind of miss 1st Edition's definition of Push/Pull where the target just had to end up further/close from the user than when they started, but that allowed for even more shenanigans. It also allowed for 'pushes' to be used to move targets in whatever direction you wanted as long as they were at least one space further away when you finished moving them.

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April 15th, 2017, 12:10 pm
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Consul
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I DO wonder if it would be legal to throw around a wall.

_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|
_|T|X|X|_|_|_|_|
o|o|o|o|X|_|_|_|
E|X|X|X|_|_|_|_|
_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|
_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|

If you count distance as squares a model would need to move it's legal.
But if distance is measured purely in squares, ignoring everything else, it's illegal...

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April 15th, 2017, 12:52 pm
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Denizen
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Goblin-King wrote:
I DO wonder if it would be legal to throw around a wall.

_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|
_|T|X|X|_|_|_|_|
o|o|o|o|X|_|_|_|
E|X|X|X|_|_|_|_|
_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|
_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|

If you count distance as squares a model would need to move it's legal.
But if distance is measured purely in squares, ignoring everything else, it's illegal...


If the attack that throws don't have hookshot i don't think it is possible to do so.


April 15th, 2017, 2:11 pm
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Abbadhon wrote:
Goblin-King wrote:
I DO wonder if it would be legal to throw around a wall.

_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|
_|T|X|X|_|_|_|_|
o|o|o|o|X|_|_|_|
E|X|X|X|_|_|_|_|
_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|
_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|

If you count distance as squares a model would need to move it's legal.
But if distance is measured purely in squares, ignoring everything else, it's illegal...


If the attack that throws don't have hookshot i don't think it is possible to do so.


I would second that

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April 15th, 2017, 2:37 pm
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Yeah, not without hookshot. Targeting requires LOSby default.


April 15th, 2017, 2:43 pm
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Consul
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amarento wrote:
Yeah, not without hookshot. Targeting requires LOSby default.

You target the friendly model though. You move it and it stops at the first model it encounters (up to x squares).
In principle you could fire at nothing.

Now don't get me wrong, I wouldn't rule it like this, but perhaps it's something that needs to be more clear?

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April 15th, 2017, 3:12 pm
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Goblin-King wrote:
amarento wrote:
Yeah, not without hookshot. Targeting requires LOSby default.

You target the friendly model though. You move it and it stops at the first model it encounters (up to x squares).
In principle you could fire at nothing.

Now don't get me wrong, I wouldn't rule it like this, but perhaps it's something that needs to be more clear?


That's a good point. Just because our brains don't look for cheesy loopholes doesn't mean there are people out there who will argue fiercely that such a move is legal.

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April 15th, 2017, 3:37 pm
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Minion
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Yeah... extra 6 square movement by taking the chuck express...


April 15th, 2017, 3:40 pm
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Denizen
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Goblin-King wrote:
But I'm a bit miffed by the fact that it's a red button. Despite obviously being an offensive action, it feels like it should have been a blue action.
You don't make an attack roll (I think). The attack roll comes as a result of the thrown model reaching it's goal.
I don't think you are supposed to attack the ammo before throwing it.
But the definition of red button actions are pretty much that you have to make an successful offensive roll to pull it of...

Am I getting this wrong? Anyone?

You're deffinetly correct. It's been a bit of an annoying trend with them messing that up of late.


April 16th, 2017, 11:42 am
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While I didn't pick this one up (opted instead for the Dragonback tiles, figured there are enough bosses coming down the pipeline - can't buy everything, sadly!), he does seem pretty cool - cool sculpt, and I do love that artwork. Definitely getting vibes of Blastoise with Snaptrap from the Transformers, mixed in with some Mario 3 Koopalings.


April 16th, 2017, 11:56 am
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Minion
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Goblin-King wrote:
insider714 wrote:
Goblin-King wrote:
I believe push allows you to "zig-zag".
iirc you just have to move the pushed model to a square that's farther away from you. That allows for some shenanigans.


Per most current rules (Arena) it says "must increase the distance, so i don't think you can maneuver it around anything on account of the distance would not be increased (I.e you can't "hookshot it around a model in front of you to have it "boomerang" around one model into another model behind the first) Per the example, you can angle it, but once it starts heading in a direction, it has to go that way.

RAW "must increase distance" allows for shenanigans. Being locked in a direction is just you applying logic to the game - it's not written anywhere.

T = Thrower
X = Ammo route
O = Obstacle
E = Enemy

_|_|_|T|_|_|_|_|
_|_|_|X|_|_|_|_|
_|_|_|_|X|_|_|_|
_|_|_|_|_|X|_|_|
_|_|_|O|_|_|X|_|
_|_|_|_|_|X|_|_|
_|_|_|_|X|_|_|_|
_|_|_|E|_|_|_|_|

As far as I'm concerned this is a legal move.
It's not going in a straight line, but the distance from the thrower is always increasing.


That to me, is not a legal move.

Sure the distance is always increasing vertically, it's technically not horizontally, because it's coming back around. That's the problem with diagaonal movement, it's dicey at best. (need official Ninja Division ruling for that)

Even if that was a legal move, the amount of space you'd require to do it doesn't exist on the current dungeon tiles. You'd certainly hit another model before it would go that far, as, squares- wise, the tiles are 12x12


April 16th, 2017, 12:30 pm
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