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 Legends Update Thread 
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Mini-Boss
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for some reason, people want to see no comments more then some comments.. it's weird..

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May 22nd, 2018, 3:43 pm
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Mini-Boss
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@InfinityMax - I would agree with the initial delay past the original KS delivery date (which anyone that does KS for minis knows isn't a hard delivery date =P).

However, it does not account for the delay in Wave 1 Production that was started Nov '17 and was to deliver April '18. At this point, Deke had gotten sick and been back at full time. The rules for Classic, Arcade, and Pet Parade are done and laid out.

Nov = start wave 1 production, deliver legends beta materials
Dec = eproofs/white box samples
Jan = preview materials
Feb = Centaur Lore/Layout roundup
March = GAMA fiasco/Gloomborn teaser > Status Update (no april delivery, new manufacturer)
April = 2 lore updates
May = 2 lore updates

The timeline pre-March 23 update was:

Wave 1 delivery April '18 including production updates (beyond eproofs, white box samples - we never saw mold samples of Wave 1, just Arcade models)
Layout on everything is done including Legends.

As of right now we have:

SDE Classic Core box being tested at new manufacturer. Everything else on hold. Including all plastic products from SPM (which is just SDE at this point, right?)
Development, sculpting, and layout is complete on everything except Legends. Assume we don't have molds for everything b/c this wasn't mentioned.
Legends development specifically on hold until production starts up again. None of the material in dev includes minis.

So we can't say the Nov '17 production was delayed b/c of any rules development or Deke's health b/c Deke was back to work and all the rules/print, etc. stuff for Wave 1 was sent to production in Nov 17, too.
We can say that SPM had to move SDE Core game (not necessarily all of Wave 1) to a new manufacturer
We can say that SPM plastic production is backlogged.
We can't say why/root cause and/or who's at fault, how much money was lost, or ND/SPM's financial stability.
We can say that SPM lost production time b/w Nov '17 and March '18, but we don't know how much time/how much they have to restart for sure.

======================================
That being said, I never looked at the eproofs before. Would these be better to use as a print and play?

Update 113
Update 115
=======================================
References:

Update #107 Sept 29 2017
<update after ND/SPM got lambasted for the Starfinder KS, I think, and when Deke shared his personal health issues - full time since August '17 supposedly>

Q2. What is the estimated delivery date for wave 1?
Production of wave 1 will begin November 2017, and we estimate delivery (models on your doorstep) to happen mid April 2018.

Q4. What is the status of wave 1?
Wave 1 is 100% print ready, with all proofs approved internally, eproofs will still be needed from the manufacturer. The next step is to begin physical manufacturing on November 1st. This will involve a quality check of the miniatures with printed samples before approving the final run. You will be updated on and involved in this process with photographs of the test models. Understand that we cannot incorporate all feedback and not every person is a fan of every model, but if you see issues you can point them out and we will not leave you with any surprises.


Q12: You have talked a lot about wave 1, what about wave 2?

There are many components in wave 2, so we have broken them up below:
• Arcade: All components are completely laid out including the rulebook, cards, tokens, and box. It will be proofed over the course of next week, and you will see a fully laid out rulebook next Friday. The miniatures are sculpted, and the molds are ready.
• Legends: The Legends books have been written and the next step is to start a playtest cycle. We expect this to take two months, and lay out cannot begin until playtesting is complete. The miniatures are sculpted, but the molds still need to be made. Cover art is in progress.
• Pet Parade: Pet Parade is fully written and tested, but it needs to be laid out and proofed. The miniatures are sculpted, but the molds still need to be made. Cover art is complete.
• Bosses of Legend: These miniatures are written and playtested, and they are currently being laid out by our graphic artist. The miniatures are sculpted, but the molds still need to be made.
• Assorted individual miniatures: These are written and playtested, and will likely be laid out immediately after the bosses of legend. The miniatures are sculpted, but the molds still need to be made.

We expect Legends to be done and fully laid out by the middle of next January. All other wave 2 content will be laid out within the next month. We are considering breaking Legends off into a third wave in order to get you the rest of wave 2 earlier, however that has not been decided.

=========================================================

>>Based on this (hopefully didn't paraphrase too much):

Wave 1 was planned to start production Nov '17, delivery April '18
Wave 2 has molds ready
Legends in playtesting, expected to go through Dec '17 b/c layout. Layout complete in Jan '18.
Pet Parade not laid out (is now - original ETA Nov '17), molds need to be made
Bosses needs molds made
Assorted minis needs molds made

>>Possible Wave 3 discussed.

==========================================================

Update 111 Oct 25 2017 Complete Wave 1 Preview

Super Dungeon: Explore 2nd Edition
•Frostbyte Ravagers Warband
•Crown Guard Warband
•King Starfire
•Captain of the Guard
•Rimefrost Warlord

All of these sets have been sent to production to begin manufacturing next month. We will keep you up-to-date with the status of all of it as it goes through the entire manufacturing process.

DEVELOPMENT

We've been working on layout for the wave two items. These items are:
•Arcade (We released a preview of the rulebook layout. You can download it here.)
•Legends
•Pet Parade
•Bosses of Legend
•Assorted Individual Miniatures

>>I think we have everything laid out/in hand digitally except Legends at this point.

=======================================
>>From here we got some eproofs, more laid out digital material, some pics of molds, white box samples for Wave 1, Legends playtest Beta Materials.

Jan 5 2018 Update 118 has the Classic and Arcade previews and Jan '18 was basically getting a bunch of digital assets to play Classic, Arcade, and Pet Parade 2.0.

Feb 14 has the Centaur Lore update, which triggers SO MANY PEOPLE!

Feb 28 '18 links back to the Sculpts, molds, white samples, and digital assets and says wait for an update in March

March 14 GAMA/Gloomborn, triggers more people

===============================================

March 23 Status Update #124

First and foremost, as most of you have surmised, wave one will not be arriving in April as we had previously estimated. As we have shown in multiple updates, development and layout for most rewards is complete. (Development will be covered in more detail below.)

Production has obviously faced some major hurdles and delays. To overcome them, we have had to move the production of the Super Dungeon: Explore core game to a new manufacturer.

Development

Development, sculpting, and layout is complete for the following rewards:
•Super Dungeon: Explore, 2nd Edition
•Super Dungeon: Arcade, 2nd Edition (Midnight Tower)
•Frostbyte Ravagers
•Crown Guard
•Bosses of Legends 1
•Bosses of Legends 2
•Super Dungeon: Pet Parade
•Super Dungeon Backer Pins
•Midnight Tower tiles
•All Heroes, Mini-Bosses, creeps, and NPCs.

Development on the following products is ongoing:
•Super Dungeon: Legends
•Super Dungeon: Legends digital adventures.
•Decide Your Dungeon storybook

We have chosen, intentionally, to keep these items in development due to the production delay. This allows us to make productive use of the delay to continue to refine and improve the Legends play experience. Once the production logjam is dislodged, we will wrap up development on these products and provide you with updates once milestones are hit, in the same manner as production.

============================


May 22nd, 2018, 4:05 pm
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Mini-Boss
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I also strongly agree that ND/SPM are still working towards fulfillment. It's just a question of when. They've had two months with the new manufacturer with no production update. I was thinking we'd hear something back in May, but I think the next update is May 30 so we'll see.


May 22nd, 2018, 4:07 pm
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sleepy_laughter wrote:
I also strongly agree that ND/SPM are still working towards fulfillment. It's just a question of when. They've had two months with the new manufacturer with no production update. I was thinking we'd hear something back in May, but I think the next update is May 30 so we'll see.


When you hire a new manufacturer, it's not like they kept all the materials on hand and don't have production schedules. In the steel market a typical lead time for materials is 12-16 weeks. If they were told 12-16 weeks before the start of manufacturing then the items wouldn't even be on the shop floor yet so there would be nothing to report.


May 22nd, 2018, 6:23 pm
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Mini-Boss
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also it's debatable but SOME manufacturers will let you 'buy' the steel molds so that you can take them to another manufacture (if they are using the right size machines, which are fairly standard) but some... don't.. some times even through you paid for the molds and it's your IP etc, you don't outright own them, in which case new steels would be needed.

also, I through I remembered something not long ago about not getting quite right with a new manufacture.. but I took that as standard unofficial crap or "I heard this from someone high up in the company but able to go fully public with this" stuff... Which, for the record, I know no-one in the company personally or even in a business sense apart from as a company and there interactions on that part with me as a customer.

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May 22nd, 2018, 6:54 pm
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Mini-Boss
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@Jestor - yup. but we don't know exactly when they decided to move production to a new manufacturer b/c they didn't say. So they could've started the move prior to March. They could potentially not have started the move to the new manufacturer until April+. The March update kind of forced their hand b/c the previous timeline indicated April delivery.

Also since they decided to put Legends on hold, all we have left is Lore updates and waiting on a production update, right? I don't think they'd dare do any sort of cross promotion update at this point (since they said no more KS....and backlash).

I think all the previous molds they showed were for:

Update 108 Crown Guard warband
Update 108 Frostbyte Ravagers
Update 109 Midnight Tower

I don't think we ever saw the molds for these Wave 1 items:

Super Dungeon: Explore 2nd Edition
•King Starfire
•Captain of the Guard
•Rimefrost Warlord

So there's another assumption that the molds were completed/being used in Nov, right? B/c they could've started printing the warbands first.


May 22nd, 2018, 8:14 pm
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Mini-Boss
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lets post this and see what peoples views are:

I don't think SPM or ND is having financial trouble, persay, however:
-If the company is run how many should be/are run, there are different things the money is allotted to. for SDE, I think there is or should be a set amount (flexable) allotted for stuff. I think the money raised by the KS would be enough to cover costs of R&D, Manufacture, publishing etc with money to cover staff costs and a bit of profit, which at the end of the day, needs to be made to go into future stuff etc.
-The KS covered this. When they decided (for better or worse) to cut up the shipping into two waves, took a bite into this extra. meaning the profit margin was less then expected.
-Delays due to feedback/run changes, extra stuff added (new Starfire for free etc) and health issues meant staff costs and R&D costs went up. This took more of a bite out of the money pool.
-as long as delays are happening, that is LESS money coming in, more money going out, having an effect on this pool.
-Swaping to a new manufacturer will mean some increase in outgoings without incomings.

Do I think the resins are a quick way to make some cash to cover costs? not really.. R&D costs, manufacture costs, staff costs etc, all have to come out of that.

some people seam to be hinting or outright saying, because SPM/ND don't seam to do combined shipping (which, to be honest, a lot of places don't.. in fact, it seams the norm NOT to, so be lucky if they do) it's them being money grabbing because they need every pence they can get. I don't think that.. doesn't add up at all.

So, what is my point.. like some others have said.. delays are costing the company a fair bit of money. Releasing small runs of figures would most likely (unless they pay the staff in peanuts) not cover much of this money being lost/not gained.

On a side note: I wonder why they are moving office again for.. what the second time in 3 years? either a short term lease or they found a better place. Not totally weird I wonder a bit.

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May 23rd, 2018, 9:47 am
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ManicMan wrote:

On a side note: I wonder why they are moving office again for.. what the second time in 3 years? either a short term lease or they found a better place. Not totally weird I wonder a bit.


I saw one of them is moving to Seattle, is everyone? It might just be because there is a lot of gaming business going on in that area and the flights to China are shorter.

As far as owning tooling and taking it to another manufacturer, I can speak on this. You said some manufacturers don't let you take your tooling some place else. This is true. When we do tooling for a company (most of the products I work with are custom) we give them two options. They own the tooling and perform the upkeep (so we send them a bill every time we work on it) or we own the tooling and the mark up per part is generally slightly higher but we perform all maintenance on the tooling.


May 23rd, 2018, 10:38 am
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Mini-Boss
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possible. I throught it was a comment about moving office which I took as they have one American office, more then a person in the office moving or having more then one office.. which is quite possible ^_^ Might just be Nij Scotty moving.

and sounds right to what I know. sometimes its hard to know which tooling offer is the best. like you said, if you guys own the tooling compared to the customer, the mark up is slightly higher, but in a way, it's cheaper for the customer in the long run, but has limits on if they want to transfer to another company.

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May 23rd, 2018, 10:48 am
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The math works out to be the same pretty much all the time, it's how do you want to spend your capital and what do you have up front.

I own a condo that I rent out to someone. The rent is about 300 more per month then the condo fees + mortgage. Sounds great right? I just got hit with a 2500 dollar assessment for a pipe that froze over the winter. I have to replace the water heater this year and have the chimney swept. By the time that is done the profit will be zero. Owning the condo versus renting it is basically the same cost. Some years I make out and have some scratch left over. Other years it costs me money. Tooling is similar to owning a house versus renting.


May 23rd, 2018, 11:44 am
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Mini-Boss
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ohh, in the UK, that makes you a rich guy ^_^

we had a pretty bad winter with a lot of water pipe problems.. at my home, the only problem was some freezing which knocked out the boiler, but I fixed it with a hot kettle. also, leaning to be able to do some... minor work, works out fine. I can do basic drain stuff, did a pipe change on the water tank to make a bit more room etc (it seams common in the UK but often a overflow pipe in the loft goes at a stupid angle which means you have a large section of limited space that is unuseable.. I did some tweaking so it goes at a better angle and now has much more space.. This probably means more to UK people then US cause.. well, when you guys have a loft, it seams HUGE.. I mean, you can even stand up in them

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May 23rd, 2018, 11:50 am
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Bottle Cap

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Hi Guys, i’m quite new in SDE and i wonder where i can find 2.0 rulebook you are talking about ? I’m going to buy FK tomorrow but i want to play with neseser rules.


May 23rd, 2018, 10:46 pm
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Mini-Boss
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no real need for the double posting.. looks like a fair gap in the time but I was sleeping ^_^ then out.

anyway, if you scroll up a bit, Sleepy has posted a few links to the KS with the stuff you want but the quickest way is:
http://ninjadivision.com/wp-content/upl ... review.zip
download that file and you have the preview of the backpack which you can print and use, the mighty monster chart and the new 2.0 classic mode rules.

it also has previews of the new core set tiles, and cards.

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May 24th, 2018, 10:48 am
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Bottle Cap

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omg i didnt notice this. I think i was to confoused and frustrated about looking for them ;-) thx a lot now i can order !


May 24th, 2018, 12:16 pm
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ManicMan wrote:
no real need for the double posting.. looks like a fair gap in the time but I was sleeping ^_^ then out.

Both were queued for moderation because he is a new poster. I decided to just approve both to get him closer to that "no longer needs moderation to post" level since it's a real person and not a Russian bot ;)


May 24th, 2018, 1:17 pm
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Mini-Boss
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@swiderasek if you decide you want to print the Classic 2.0 cards, I recommend going to update 113/115 (I have the links above) since those seem to be the most printer friendly atm.

Arcade 2.0 doesn't have eproofs so those basically print the preview cards and cut them out or preprocess to print them out on your own. Laurent on the KS forum said he was going to make a card printer friendly bundle but I haven't seen it posted/shared and it's possible ND/SPM asked him to not share it.


May 24th, 2018, 4:21 pm
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Mini-Boss
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Jestor wrote:
ManicMan wrote:
no real need for the double posting.. looks like a fair gap in the time but I was sleeping ^_^ then out.

Both were queued for moderation because he is a new poster. I decided to just approve both to get him closer to that "no longer needs moderation to post" level since it's a real person and not a Russian bot ;)


Ah, no problem ^_^ fair enough

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May 24th, 2018, 4:41 pm
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Minion
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I was doing some catch up on reading the comments section of the KS page, and a rather horrible thought dawned on me all at once: if this thing were to get robotech'd, would they just offer us seven resin models in lieu of our completion pledges?

[quote "sleepy_laughter (KS comments page)"]Assuming you did $300 SDE:L pledge, that's x7.5 resin models without accounting for shipping, customs, etc.[/quote]

God, that thought is nauseating. I cannot imagine how infuriating it would be to go from a game and add-ons totalling to well over 100+ unique models... To seven models without any of the necessary components for new players to be able to use them. I'm not saying we're robotech'd. Sleepy and others have made very thorough and accurate statement in saying that we simply don't "know" what's going on with this. It could be anything at this point. We can draw strong logical conclusions, but there's always the distinct possibility that we don't know some important detail(s) involved.

I'm still keeping faith, still hoping to see good news sometime soon, even if I am a bit cynical about it all at this point. I don't know if we ever will, but I would love to see a post mortem behind the scenes really explaining what happened after this thing finally launches. Who knows, it might indemnify them of some of the frustrations we've all had over the seemingly endless delays.


May 25th, 2018, 6:38 am
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Mini-Boss
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TheHandsomeDan wrote:
I was doing some catch up on reading the comments section of the KS page, and a rather horrible thought dawned on me all at once: if this thing were to get robotech'd, would they just offer us seven resin models in lieu of our completion pledges?



I am sure our imaginations can dream up all manner of horrible "what ifs". But at this sensitive point in time, I would think that they are better kept to our own heads, rather than trying to stir up things even further.

I am not happy with the way things have turned out, but I still have faith that we will get our full pledges.

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May 25th, 2018, 2:10 pm
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Spazzfist wrote:
TheHandsomeDan wrote:
I was doing some catch up on reading the comments section of the KS page, and a rather horrible thought dawned on me all at once: if this thing were to get robotech'd, would they just offer us seven resin models in lieu of our completion pledges?



I am sure our imaginations can dream up all manner of horrible "what ifs". But at this sensitive point in time, I would think that they are better kept to our own heads, rather than trying to stir up things even further.

I am not happy with the way things have turned out, but I still have faith that we will get our full pledges.


I'm 100% with Spazzfist on this one. Wild speculation will get us no where. It's more likely to create unfounded rumors and panic than actually help.

I have faith we will get our full pledge. If I were to guess, I think we'll see wave one (Arcade/Classic plus whatever else they can cram in) by October/November time frame. Just a guess though. ;)


May 25th, 2018, 4:41 pm
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