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 Who else is bummed with what Legends has become? 
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Mini-Boss
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Joined: September 2nd, 2012, 8:15 pm
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So I wanted to vent out my frustration somewhere. I really appreciate what Justin is doing, but I still have some nagging thoughts. I realize I still love the game, the theme, and the models, but I am not liking what Legends is becoming. I guess I had some ideas based off the pitch at the beginning, but this isn't it. This is especially true with their recent update regarding "Arcade" rules. I was wondering if anyone else is in the same boat as me.

Originally I thought Legends was going to be an expansion that would utilize everything I have for the game already. All the character cards, Loot, Treasure, etc. This way it was expandable with every new product that was released. I don't usually have people to play with, so I am always looking for good solitaire games. Most of the time I will take a game I like, and then make my own solitaire rules for it. This usually involves me playing both sides trying to perform the best option I can. Doing it that way however isn't as fulfilling as a true cooperative game as you can't really root for one side without fudging die rolls. That's why I really was excited with Super Dungeon Arcade being redone. I already liked the base rules and gang mechanics. Having static stars to roll against speeds things up and makes it so you can't 'fudge' a bad die roll. I also liked the more objective style gameplay with Plot cards and such. Having actual 'rules' for a solitaire game is nice because you can feel good if you win. Otherwise by playing both sides, you don't really have that same satisfaction. So now it looks as if Legends can't support all of the great new rules for Arcade because Legends itself is a different game. So now if you want to play cooperatively, you have to play both sides. No depth, just more die rolling.

I still want to support Super Dungeon as a franchise, but I'm not sure I want to support Legends anymore. I'll take the new 2.0 box, the warbands, and all the other pretty models, but I don't know if I really want to both with the actual Legends content. As it exists now, it doesn't seem as if it can survive on its own. Having its own ruleset and cards that are different from every other Super Dungeon product I don't think will be good for its lifespan. Once I play enough Legends and get bored of the same old classes and cards, what do I do? I can't mix in cards from any other set because they aren't compatible. It's cool that right now with Arena I am able to mix and match Loot and Treasure. You can't do that in Legends now.

Just wanted to see if anyone else felt this way. I'm not going to get a refund, as I don't want to be one of those people. I really want things to go well because I want even more Super Dungeon stuff down the road. I'm just worried what kind of reception this will get or if it's too late to change anything back.


October 12th, 2017, 8:47 pm
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Denizen
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I just reply shortly at least for now. Apparently Arcade Legends uses static roll values for monsters. It's just not explained in the new rule book or I didn't read it carefully. For example, Ironscale's attack is "STR 1B1R(2)". In Legends Explore it's 1B1R and when playing Legends Arcade 2W. No need to roll for both sides. I think I'll try a game on weekend if it's ok for friends and only 3 of them shows up.


October 12th, 2017, 9:02 pm
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Minion
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I feel the same way as you do about this. I also play games solo mostly and don't want to pull out of the Kickstarter though I am paying for a product in Legends I don't really want any more

I was really disappointed when I found out that legends would not be compatible with Arcade. I had high hopes of Arcade in a story-driven campaign mode. That would have been awesome

I then convinced myself that Legends was going to be a simple solo romp through a story with light fun components and gameplay. Easy enough that I could play 4 characters and the bad guys on an evening, even if a bit tired. Then I read the rules and the sections on roleplaying. Seriously, I have no interest in any roleplaying elements in a solo boardgame (except its no longer a boardgame its a tabletop RPG-lite (TM)). I tried to remain optimistic and hoped that the board game elements could still be fun ad resolved to get involved in playtesting in the hope that there may yet be something of interest here.

Then I saw the first playtest mission and I have none of the boards or minis to play it with. I could have used proxies but I just don't like doing that, I'm very into theme and aesthetics (which is why I love the chibi minis and colorful theme of SDE) and struggle to playtest as I am demotivated/disinterested by the lack of polish provided by temporary components.

Then I noticed that the components for the final game would require you to copy abilities out of the book onto your character cards and I felt another round of frustration and disillusionment over this. I have poured far too much energy over the last week trying to convince the devs to change their view on this but am at a point where I just need to admit defeat. I'm so jaded by all the BS which is surrounding this campaign and if I am invited to quit the Kickstarter again or be told that they are listening and understand I think I might pull my teddy-bears eyes out or at very least chuck him out of my pram!!!

I feel that it's not just me either, I feel that there is no need for this product in the general marketplace, it's neither one thing or the other. It's not a middle ground that is needed, it's just not something to get excited about. Every twist and turn in this campaign has taken me further and further away from what I wanted to see for this project. I forked out $300 dollars (a significant sum for me) and am not sure I like what I am paying for. I feel so demoralized and jaded by this process that if the whole lot turned up tomorrow I am not sure it would get to the table for a few weeks and will probably never see enough play to justify the cost...

I need to take a step back and forget about it until it turns up on my doorstep, but $300 (plus postage already paid) could almost back me 3 other Kickstarter projects that might be a lot more fun...

But then I don't want to be that guy....

Sigh...


October 12th, 2017, 9:23 pm
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Bottle Cap
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I will say I have some mixed feelings after the recent update (I'll go into more further down) but am overall very happy with the direction the game is taking.

I am okay with the no ability cards, and abilities being in the book. It fits well enough, allows more flexibility in character choices (ie. duplicate char/ability, etc.), and is a very minor amount to have to fill out for the character. However, I'm also very very glad to hear are considering (and hope they do decide upon) monster cards.

I am sad to see the state of Arcade in Legends. It seems rather tacked on. We'll see how it possibly evolves, but I still need to do a lot of looking and see what can be done (possibly just using more of the Arcade components with Legends to see how it goes. I had hoped to see something along the lines of the old arcade deck, but comprised of a deck of cards constructed based on the monsters involved. ie. IronScales are Defensive types, for each Def. Monster add 4 Def. Tactics Cards to the deck. For each Aggresive. add 4 Agg. Tactics to the deck, for each Sneaky Monster add 4 Sneaky cards, etc. etc. Then having an overarching Tactic (ie. Monsters target closest player with lowest Health/Armor). I'm not saying this is a perfect idea, but something to keep each game fresh without each player just pretending to be the Consul.

Legends Arcade had been my primary expectation for play, but it seems I'm more likely to play it in Classic Mode, and so will likely see less table time. My group will likely just opt to play the revamped Arcade mode, though I'm still very excited for opportunities to play Legends (likely as Consul). With all of the other figures and whatnot coming along with Legends it still feels like more than a good deal even if Legends proper doesn't get played as much.


October 12th, 2017, 9:57 pm
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Denizen
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I backed for an rpg expansion to sde not an rpg lite - I have a whole book case full of rpg system books to chose from . If I wanted to play an rpg lite i'd play 'Kobolds have eaten my baby'.

This project has drifted so far from what it was advertised as, It's a completely new product and not one I would have backed only staying now because it will be so difficult to get the new models in the uk.


Last edited by growlley on October 13th, 2017, 9:27 am, edited 1 time in total.



October 12th, 2017, 10:46 pm
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Mini-Boss
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Okay, reading the update again, I see the star values. Still doesn't help the fact that I have to still play both sides. Since the delay, I've been looking into other board games to scratch the itch. One I found was Descent which I've been enjoying. It is a board game with RPG elements. You play through a campaign which in comprised of multiple story driven encounters. Each encounter is unique in the fact that you have different objectives to complete. I was really hoping Legends would turn into something similar.

At this point I'm just thinking of ways that I can just make my own rules for Legends. Maybe things will get better once we see what these adventures look like. I'm worried that it might be two more years before we see anything Legends related.


October 13th, 2017, 1:40 am
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Bottle Cap
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I'm kind of keeping my distance because I just don't have the time to playtest beta things that I might have had a year ago.

It does bum me out to hear that there's no option for "Arcade Legends", but the more I think about it, the more I realize how much I customize stuff. Either I'll get tired of premade adventures after a while and have to Consul anyway so that I can run my own, or if there's enough demand for it, there'll be some exceptional Lootimeter-level house-ruled system that a supporter comes out with to make it happen before too long.

I think the biggest thing on my mind at this point is that even if it isn't exactly what I was hoping for, I sure as hell don't want anything that could even vaguely hint at a single further delay.


October 13th, 2017, 2:06 am
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Mini-Boss
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That's the thing about the delays. It's already delayed. There is no way they could "fix" it again by adding another delay. I think what will happen is it will come out, but not how I wanted it. It's a shame. Right now there really isn't much to playtest. We have a set of very loose rules, but that's it. There isn't any sample adventures to go on, we don't know how the Loot system works, and many other key factors.

I didn't think it would be hard to create a system that used all the existing pieces of the game. They mentioned that one reason they chose to not use hero cards is that they are too powerful. There wasn't enough room for growth without making a weaker starting hero. I disagree. I think all of Legends Rank system would have worked fine with any hero card. One of the original ideas had heroes losing their Loot and Treasure cards after each encounter, and gaining crystals for them. I think that was an excellent mechanic, as it keeps heroes at roughly the same 'level' at the beginning of every encounter. The crystals could be spent to 'Rank Up' your hero by giving them access to more ability cards. All of the abilities given in the Legends pdf could have been incorporated into cards.

While I like the idea of a "Class" system, as it makes me think of RPGs like Final Fantasy Tactics and such, I don't think it would have worked with the original idea. It seems really dumb to me that they totally nixed the whole Crystal Affinity concept, especially after saying they made it specifically for Legends! It still would have worked if it had its own deck of cards. You could even throw out the whole "Rank" mechanic of leveling up and instead just make better cards more expensive to purchase. That way a hero could have up to 4 weaker skills or 1 more powerful one. Crystal affinity would limit what skills you could buy. Some skills might be universal so all heroes could use them, such as giving you an automatic dice bonus like 1B to STR. Others would reference that you need to have a certain color crystal affinity. Where it would get more 'class based' is when certain skills are only available to those with both kinds of crystal colors, like double yellow or blue yellow. I think that would have given the game much more variety, as you could mix and match your heroes a lot better. It also would avoid a lot of 'power creep' by just adding more and more dice. I'd rather my heroes gain more skills that give me more options, instead of just giving me more dice to roll.

Gosh, I really want to elaborate on this concept and write up my own rules now.


October 13th, 2017, 5:42 am
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No matter how you cut it... Either the heroes has some sort of progression that makes them better. Or they don't and they stay the same.
If you gradually gives them access to new abilities, well, they become stronger than they started out. Strength is not only dice, it's also the flexibility of your toolbox.

Way before Legends was a thing people really wanted a RPG/progression system.
Back then I said it would be incredible hard because SDE's rules and mechanic are really the exact opposite of such a system. Just one piece of loot makes a hero much stronger.
And here we are... It WAS indeed hard to convert SDE to a progression system. So hard they didn't and instead just made a new game. And I can understand why.

I also understand you discontent with not using anything from SDE. We got like 3 sets of loot and treasure for an incredible variety. But nope!

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October 13th, 2017, 7:30 am
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Minion
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I backed for Legend (Dark Consul pledge), so the concept explained in the KS made the deal for me.

Then, there was the implementation of "rpg"... Sounded mainly dumb to me, but they said it wasn't mandatory, that it would be an option. OK then, skipping rpg part to focus on board game wouldn't be a big deal, and it's cool if some groups have fun with the rpg part of the game! No problem.

But now it is clearly "rpg-lite", to the point that Arcade becomes an option instead of a full game mode. This IS the problem for me. We play coop' in my group, and even if it wasn't the case, there are for sure plenty of other groups doing so. I think that's why there has been a huge demand for a coop mode for FK.

RPG should have been the option, not Arcade mode.

Rules simplification can be a good thing really IMO (but maybe not wise considering all the other components already available). Even if surprising, the "neutral" heroes idea is OK for us. Having to write some stuff instead of having cards for a campaign kind of play is totally ok for us. That's big changes, but basically that doesn't change the core idea behind the game : a campaign board game in the SDE universe.

But they have changed that core idea now, or at least it seems so more and more. Changing rules or game elements/components are ok during a KS. But changing the core idea is not.

The worse is : to me it makes the game going away from the kind of video games it was based on. It wasn't Dragon age or Mass Effect back then. It was simpler and perfect for a board game.

This is in an early stage though, so there is still hope... And we do not have statistics, maybe the silent majority is pleased or do not care of that change... Will see how it turns out. But for me this is far less attractive now. It smells huge home brewing requirement and my money will go to other games after all that.


October 13th, 2017, 6:10 pm
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Minion
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I am super excited to get Legends. I was kind of hoping to be able to use existing cards and what-not, but the change of direction makes a lot of sense to me. I actually really want an RPG-lite, though, so I completely understand all the dismay in this thread. I went into the KS thinking we were going to get a light role-playing game built to fit around SDE minis and the world, and from what I'm reading, that's what we're getting.

If I had not wanted a light RPG experience, I can understand being upset. But since this is exactly what I was hoping to get, I'm pretty happy.


October 13th, 2017, 7:20 pm
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InfinityMax wrote:
I am super excited to get Legends. I was kind of hoping to be able to use existing cards and what-not, but the change of direction makes a lot of sense to me. I actually really want an RPG-lite, though, so I completely understand all the dismay in this thread. I went into the KS thinking we were going to get a light role-playing game built to fit around SDE minis and the world, and from what I'm reading, that's what we're getting.

If I had not wanted a light RPG experience, I can understand being upset. But since this is exactly what I was hoping to get, I'm pretty happy.

And THIS is exactly what I think is one of the main problems for SDE.
They are trying to please too many different groups of players who prefer different playstyles.
Some like 1 vs many. Some like co-op. Some like RPGs and some don't.

I wish they had only ever developed a single gamemode and had faith enough in their own game.
Heck, even as a person who would much prefer Explore, I would gladly switch to Arcade if that was the only gamemode.
Too much development time and money spent on extra components are consumed in supporting so many different game modes.
Imagine if they had just polished one of them to perfection.

I don't think it's in bad style for a game company to say "this is the game. This is how it's played".
I think it's weird if people refuse to play a game if it's not playable in a particular style. But that's probably just me.

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October 13th, 2017, 8:54 pm
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Mini-Boss
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I'm not sure I'll like or play legends. The connected sde scenarios would have worked great. Now, I don't know. Don't have the time to playtest,sadly. So I'll take what's coming and maybe just houserule it. But anyways,I'll be getting new tiles, new spanners, legendary bosses and 2.0 rules which I like a lot. So I consider my money well spent. I'll even get corridors for sde, which nobody else will ever get. Legends is a big maybe, but the ks itself a huge hell yeah! for me.

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October 13th, 2017, 9:25 pm
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Mini-Boss
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I agree with you there, I am still super excited for all the other Kickstarter goodies. If Legends even wasn't even a part of it I still would have backed it.


October 14th, 2017, 5:23 am
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Same here :D
Legends is the part I'm the least excited about.
I honestly haven't even read the whole rulebook through...

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October 14th, 2017, 7:56 am
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