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 Legends Update Thread 
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Imriel wrote:
The nether Kobolds are tied to the destroyer
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Coruscating with the midnight energies of the Dark Realm, the kobolds of the Shadow Warrens are closely linked to the Dark Consul. Despite this, the cults of the Shadow Warrens are divided and fractious. The Cult of the First claims to be the original cult, tracing its lineage back to the Dark Consul’s first rise to power. The Cult of Shattered Night cares little for the other cults, relishing in assassination and intrigue. However, it is the Cult of the Dark that has recently drawn the most worry from the Heroes of Crystalia. Lead by the Demon Lord known only as The Destroyer, the Cult of the Dark has laid waste to every foe it has faced. It has become an endless tide of darkness consuming Crystalia bit by bit.


Mordred I believe is a former servant of the Forgotten King so should work with the chimeras, though I feel like he's more of a lone knight so any Fae woods spawns might work.
Noctua feels less like a leader and more a force of nature, kind of like Garro, and the Kodama and kinoko might work.

Good catch on that Destroyer quote 8-)
I pretty much agree on your assessment of these bosses.

@ Ricky_Robie
Hoarfang probably goes with the frost kobolds.
Lich King supposedly comes with some minions...

As for surprises... I'd say the orc boss would make sense if this is gonna be the year of the Frostbyte Reach.

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April 20th, 2017, 1:23 pm
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Goblin-King wrote:
@ Ricky_Robie
Hoarfang probably goes with the frost kobolds.
Lich King supposedly comes with some minions...

As for surprises... I'd say the orc boss would make sense if this is gonna be the year of the Frostbyte Reach.


Frostbyte Reach is also supposed to come with gnoll monsters - so there could be an opening for a gnoll boss (though I have a feeling the mini-boss in the set could be a gnoll, who knows, would be fun to find out soon either way)

EDIT: Wait, we still don't know what this is, right? I forgot about this listing. I know the Orc Warlord was a mini-boss unveiled in the stretch goals for Legends, but why would a mini-boss get a separate release? Unless it comes with a steam key like the Iron Golem? Or maybe it's a warband - who knows...

http://www.frpgames.com/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=120174#.WPjtx6K1uUl

EDIT 2: Err, wait, hold on - maybe that's the retail release of the Frostbyte Ravagers warband that is coming with the legends Kickstarter? Everything in the KS is supposed to see retail release, so maybe that's what that is... and the original plan was to have it come out with the orc warlord mini-boss instead of the Rage Fiend?


April 20th, 2017, 1:29 pm
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Ricky_Robie wrote:
Frostbyte Reach is also supposed to come with gnoll monsters - so there could be an opening for a gnoll boss (though I have a feeling the mini-boss in the set could be a gnoll, who knows, would be fun to find out soon either way)

EDIT: Wait, we still don't know what this is, right? I forgot about this listing. I know the Orc Warlord was a mini-boss unveiled in the stretch goals for Legends, but why would a mini-boss get a separate release? Unless it comes with a steam key like the Iron Golem? Or maybe it's a warband - who knows...

http://www.frpgames.com/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=120174#.WPjtx6K1uUl

EDIT 2: Err, wait, hold on - maybe that's the retail release of the Frostbyte Ravagers warband that is coming with the legends Kickstarter? Everything in the KS is supposed to see retail release, so maybe that's what that is... and the original plan was to have it come out with the orc warlord mini-boss instead of the Rage Fiend?


Frostbyte Ravagers Warband doesn't have any gnolls? I'm pretty sure everything in it (minus the Lightning Mage) is an orc, including the Rage Fiend miniboss. Also, there's no reason the Orc Warlord couldn't be separately packaged. There are several individual minibosses that fit with the theme of another boss.

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April 20th, 2017, 6:59 pm
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Clawandbyte wrote:
Frostbyte Ravagers Warband doesn't have any gnolls? I'm pretty sure everything in it (minus the Lightning Mage) is an orc, including the Rage Fiend miniboss. Also, there's no reason the Orc Warlord couldn't be separately packaged. There are several individual minibosses that fit with the theme of another boss.


The gnolls are supposedly coming with the Frostbyte Reach level box (what's it called now, Lair of the Lich King or something? Nothing's been officially unveiled yet, aside from a few hints here and there), the orcs are the Frostbyte Ravagers warband that is included in the KS (and I'm assuming will be out later at retail, which is what I'm guessing this unknown listing is)

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April 20th, 2017, 8:50 pm
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I believe Vulcanis is the leader of the Dark Celestians (who rebelled against the Celestians and lost their wings in the process). The Herald of Vulcanis is a Dark Celestian, so they are some kind of Roman legionnaire lookalike force. Maybe we will get miniatures for the Dark Celestians some day.

Dark Celestians are a red force, so they live in the Dragonback region.

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April 21st, 2017, 12:56 pm
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I'm so excited that we're getting Lord Vulcanis. Finally the herald has someone to herald!


April 21st, 2017, 1:06 pm
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Dark Celestians are a red force, so they live in the Dragonback region.[/quote]

Dark red...a very dark red so I'm not sure about them being in the Dragonback Reach.


April 21st, 2017, 3:28 pm
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killseal wrote:
Dark red...a very dark red so I'm not sure about them being in the Dragonback Reach.

What are you talking about? Both the plastic and the card is regular red?

He is such an old model though, so I wouldn't be sure if he is just red per default and actually belonging to some other region.

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April 21st, 2017, 5:35 pm
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Super Dungeon: "LEGENDS"
From Kickstarter comments:

Crimson Ghost wrote:
2 days ago

@ Whoever is the Project Manager of this Ongoing Dungeon Debacle--- So what this Mishap would leave me to believe is regardless of whatever Campaign this is pertaining that somehow we are Moving Backwards not Forwards... the reality to all this is it deals directly with the design and molding of Miniatures... So how this how this affects us is this- You have new Kickstarters that have funded after this one which have miniatures that need design and tooling and on Top of this you are designing the miniatures for The Warforged Kickstarter, Another one to be Funded in 10 days- the real nail in the coffin here is You have while you guys are pushing forward with all these new projects and haven't finished this one with any real clear indication of when Dungeons will be completed- Im not even mentioning Legends - I will start commenting on that in 2020 when fulfillment starts--- Are you guys gonna seriously continue to tell us that one project doesn't affect another...? I'm not buying it at all. These constant rule changes are just getting monotonous and tedious. TAKE CONTROL OF YOUR PROJECT LOCK DOWN THE RULES AND LETS GET GOING... we put our faith in you and this project has dragged on long enough and is turning into an embarrassment in regards to these updates. I understand my ticket has already been punched so I'm along for the ride but how long are planning on letting this drag out?


So... @Nekodachi, may you talk about this?

Well... the great majority of backers prefers wait until get the best ruleset, but how long it go to reach this goal? About that I do not have much more than to agree and wait. Complaining will not change events.

How many "updates" on ruleset this game suffered along the time until now? After all happy backers get their "rewards", where's the warranty about the ruleset never change again when SPM decides to release new products related to Super Dungeon franchise?

I know, Kickstarters are just PROJECTS where backers BELIEVE to put money and this gamble brings risks for both sides: if everything runs clear, allright, both sides wins, but in another case... backers lost money and time and the company get the worst damages like lost of good reputation, credibility, confidence of costumers/backers, money and time too, because the profit margin reduces while time passes.

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April 24th, 2017, 12:36 pm
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Crimson Ghost wrote:
2 days ago

@ Whoever is the Project Manager of this Ongoing Dungeon Debacle--- So what this Mishap would leave me to believe is regardless of whatever Campaign this is pertaining that somehow we are Moving Backwards not Forwards... the reality to all this is it deals directly with the design and molding of Miniatures... So how this how this affects us is this- You have new Kickstarters that have funded after this one which have miniatures that need design and tooling and on Top of this you are designing the miniatures for The Warforged Kickstarter, Another one to be Funded in 10 days- the real nail in the coffin here is You have while you guys are pushing forward with all these new projects and haven't finished this one with any real clear indication of when Dungeons will be completed- Im not even mentioning Legends - I will start commenting on that in 2020 when fulfillment starts--- Are you guys gonna seriously continue to tell us that one project doesn't affect another...? I'm not buying it at all. These constant rule changes are just getting monotonous and tedious. TAKE CONTROL OF YOUR PROJECT LOCK DOWN THE RULES AND LETS GET GOING... we put our faith in you and this project has dragged on long enough and is turning into an embarrassment in regards to these updates. I understand my ticket has already been punched so I'm along for the ride but how long are planning on letting this drag out?


Well this has been addressed multiple times, and not to "Drink the cool aid" but let's talk for a second with a grounded perspective as ND has addressed this multiple times and we will get the same answer.

1st - We have been told that they are separating projects into individual departments, not bleeding into each other to cause delays. This answer will not change because a disgruntled backer asked about it yet again. Is it true, is it false, I don't know, I should certainly hope true. Is it causing delays now? No, has it caused delays in the past until they got things sorted out? I do believe half the reason they hired Justin and others was because there was too much on one plate and they are doing what they said, making them their own entities.

2nd - We all have our "tickets punched and are along for the ride," They are starting to give real updates with numbers and progress, to ask them to comment on progress to tell you everything that is readily available just by looking, it becomes toxic and depressing. It only reiterates that they are behind schedule big time.

3rd - We all feel disappointed at the stage and process of this game getting into our hands, but we have all voiced numerous times and they have said "Look, we dropped the ball, we're getting our $%it together and getting this going." They hear us. Hence the rule testing. When legends came out everyone's reaction was "WOOOOOO!!!" the next reaction after it was backed was, "I sure hope the rules get fixed because FK is garbage rules."

So now they are fixing the rules to a point where it is community tested and now everyone's going "How much longer on the rules? What's up with the rules, You should have rewrote the rules earlier." So in the end, there is no happy answer is there? People will always complain about something. The thing I find hilarious is how many times people want something fixed and want it done over night. So as a community, do we want rules that we love? Or do we want minis to stare at until they are fun to play?


Lastly: To continue to have the same conversation over and over again does nothing but build animosity and rile the disgruntled into a flame war. They have said "This is where we are, this is where we are going, this is what to expect" Beyond that, there's nothing we can do. Also, how many people have been actively beta testing and reporting their games? (And be honest) I know I have, I know A couple of other people have, but it's usually the same 3 or 4 of us that are actually playing and testing. So by not testing you are not advancing the development in a timely manner.


To conclude: I was very upset with this kick starter, and RRI. I went all in on both and have received nothing. However, we will receive a fully polished and playable and beautiful game. Again, I know it sounds like I drank the Kool Aid, but truth is, I am sick of people whining and complaining and being negative and nasty and demanding answers to the same questions that are presented differently (sometimes with sub-par understanding of written English). But here's the deal, if you have the beta rules, you can plan. There is enough content and materials to play and have fun and enjoy what you have for now. Legends beta comes out this month. Get involved. Beta test. report. Talk on beta Forums. Work things out. Help them get it rolling.

I went from rage about delays and did a complete 180. Instead of harping on them I am now helping with testing, giving positive and constructive feedback, since then, some of the things I reported have actually been implemented after discussion. Now I try and post what I can with my games and it's all good.


If you didn't want to read the wall of the text here is the cliff notes:

We have our answers, they wont change. Be happy, stop the bile, beta test and report. Help them get it out faster rather than distracting them with the same arguments.

I know this response may rub people wrong, just trying to stop the negativity. I apologize if this angers anyone as it is directed at no one in particular, just really about the negativity and keyboard warriors.


April 24th, 2017, 12:59 pm
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Nephastus wrote:
After all happy backers get their "rewards", where's the warranty about the ruleset never change again when SPM decides to release new products related to Super Dungeon franchise?


Nobody would (or should) ever provide such a "warranty". Good systems are always refined and updated and new editions put out. I think D&D is on 5.0 right now? I can still go back and play 3.5 if I want to, but there's a new edition out that the creators consider a better product. GW updates their codices constantly, and I think the 40K base system got an update not too long ago. Any reasonable person should expect that they're buying into the current iteration of a product.


April 24th, 2017, 1:04 pm
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Tarlach wrote:
Nobody would (or should) ever provide such a "warranty". Good systems are always refined and updated and new editions put out. I think D&D is on 5.0 right now? I can still go back and play 3.5 if I want to, but there's a new edition out that the creators consider a better product. GW updates their codices constantly, and I think the 40K base system got an update not too long ago. Any reasonable person should expect that they're buying into the current iteration of a product.


I agree, in spirit with what you are saying, but I feel it prudent to point out that GW changes their codices and rules strictly from a marketing and profit perspective, not because they think the rules need it.

Specialist games ({Necromunda, Blood Bowl, etc.) have a two year life and are then pulled. Core games (Warhammer, 40K) have a five year life and are then redone. Every new set of rules requires thousands of gamers to buy new sets, new codices, etc.

I really hope that Sodapop does not follow that business model. I would rather them get it right, and then just leave it alone.

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April 24th, 2017, 1:10 pm
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Goblin-King wrote:
killseal wrote:
Dark red...a very dark red so I'm not sure about them being in the Dragonback Reach.

What are you talking about? Both the plastic and the card is regular red?

He is such an old model though, so I wouldn't be sure if he is just red per default and actually belonging to some other region.

The Hall of Vulcanis was called out in the first edition rulebook as a sub-area of the Dragonback Peaks and is likely the area containing the colosseum like structure on the new map, which the new explorer's guide puts into the Dragonback Peaks as well.


April 24th, 2017, 1:18 pm
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Spazzfist wrote:
I agree, in spirit with what you are saying, but I feel it prudent to point out that GW changes their codices and rules strictly from a marketing and profit perspective, not because they think the rules need it. [...] I really hope that Sodapop does not follow that business model. I would rather them get it right, and then just leave it alone.


I agree with you 100% in that I hope SPM/ND doesn't plan to toss out a new codice every month or two. I hope that our wait here is to create a product that is lasting and polished.

At the same time, I do expect that there will be a 3.0 ruleset eventually for both reasons - because years of play will reveal things that might work better in a different way, AND because it's extremely logical for a company with a successful game of this type to profit from a new edition. I hope this franchise is successful enough to warrant a third edition years down the road.

I think it's unreasonable to expect a company to say "this ruleset will be the only one you'll ever need for this product, in perpetuity". The only company that can ever guarantee that is one who doesn't plan to continue investing in that product.


April 24th, 2017, 1:24 pm
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Spazzfist wrote:
Tarlach wrote:
Nobody would (or should) ever provide such a "warranty". Good systems are always refined and updated and new editions put out. I think D&D is on 5.0 right now? I can still go back and play 3.5 if I want to, but there's a new edition out that the creators consider a better product. GW updates their codices constantly, and I think the 40K base system got an update not too long ago. Any reasonable person should expect that they're buying into the current iteration of a product.


I agree, in spirit with what you are saying, but I feel it prudent to point out that GW changes their codices and rules strictly from a marketing and profit perspective, not because they think the rules need it.

Specialist games ({Necromunda, Blood Bowl, etc.) have a two year life and are then pulled. Core games (Warhammer, 40K) have a five year life and are then redone. Every new set of rules requires thousands of gamers to buy new sets, new codices, etc.

I really hope that Sodapop does not follow that business model. I would rather them get it right, and then just leave it alone.


Spazzfist, I think I remember working with you here on house ruling Forgotten King when it first came out. It was clear to many that while 1.0 was clunky, Forgotten King did just as many things wrong as it did right. SDE has been a game of potential since the beginning. While I don't play Classic much, I can affirm that the testing going on now is producing significant improvements to Arcade on a weekly basis. The 1.10 update especially seems to be a coming together of really good parts into a pretty cool system. It will still be a 2 to 3 hour three tile game, but it will be one that works well and keeps the challenge and excitement going. Reports on Classic seemed to be similar.

I strongly doubt SPM will do much if anything with the rules after 2.0. This is their stand at the crossroads of expanding and cross designing their game. They just took a bit longer than the rest of us to realize that the FK platform was not going to cut it. Should this have been done earlier? Sure. Like probably a before FK sort of earlier. But it's where we are at. And it is improving. A lot!

I also echo Drew's call to action. If you have ANY of SDE, then get in there and test. Submit feedback. Become part of the process. I can assure you, they are listening. It doesn't take much to test either. Print a rule book and some cards, then go. I do this weekly now. :). And if nothing else, you can see where the design is going. Arcade is pretty cool at this point.


April 24th, 2017, 2:25 pm
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Imriel wrote:
Goblin-King wrote:
killseal wrote:
Dark red...a very dark red so I'm not sure about them being in the Dragonback Reach.

What are you talking about? Both the plastic and the card is regular red?

He is such an old model though, so I wouldn't be sure if he is just red per default and actually belonging to some other region.

The Hall of Vulcanis was called out in the first edition rulebook as a sub-area of the Dragonback Peaks and is likely the area containing the colosseum like structure on the new map, which the new explorer's guide puts into the Dragonback Peaks as well.

Well there you go... :)


I'm gonna go against the popular opinion and say I wan't new editions.
I still think they should have just released yet a deck of cards for v.2. Not doing so was a huge mistake.
Sure it would be bogus having to buy yet another deck, but at least everything would have been fixed for the new version. Now the ghosts of old cards will continue to haunt the game.

"The cards MUST stay" and "We want to make the best rules possible" just don't go hand in hand in my opinion.
Granted the rules are shaping up pretty good, but imagine what could have been without card restrictions.

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April 24th, 2017, 2:30 pm
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Yes, we are working on the third version of the SDE rules, and yes, I wish they would have got it right the first time.

But here's the thing - where 40K releases new rules that actually invalidate previous purchases, ruling some miniatures out of the game or altering the basic fundamentals overall, I can still play with the minis I got (and painted) six years ago. Yes, I have the FK card updates, and yes, those should be more available, but the point is I don't have to dump my entire collection every time new rules pop up.

In fact, the new stuff will still be compatible with everything back to FK, and since the FK upgrade pack had cards for everything ever, I can still use every single minis I have ever obtained.

Short version: I don't believe a comparison between GW and SPM is fair. I applaud SPM for updating and improving the rules, and I am very excited for the new direction.


April 24th, 2017, 2:35 pm
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Nephastus wrote:
Super Dungeon: "LEGENDS"
From Kickstarter comments:

Crimson Ghost wrote:
2 days ago

@ Whoever is the Project Manager of this Ongoing Dungeon Debacle--- So what this Mishap would leave me to believe is regardless of whatever Campaign this is pertaining that somehow we are Moving Backwards not Forwards... the reality to all this is it deals directly with the design and molding of Miniatures... So how this how this affects us is this- You have new Kickstarters that have funded after this one which have miniatures that need design and tooling and on Top of this you are designing the miniatures for The Warforged Kickstarter, Another one to be Funded in 10 days- the real nail in the coffin here is You have while you guys are pushing forward with all these new projects and haven't finished this one with any real clear indication of when Dungeons will be completed- Im not even mentioning Legends - I will start commenting on that in 2020 when fulfillment starts--- Are you guys gonna seriously continue to tell us that one project doesn't affect another...? I'm not buying it at all. These constant rule changes are just getting monotonous and tedious. TAKE CONTROL OF YOUR PROJECT LOCK DOWN THE RULES AND LETS GET GOING... we put our faith in you and this project has dragged on long enough and is turning into an embarrassment in regards to these updates. I understand my ticket has already been punched so I'm along for the ride but how long are planning on letting this drag out?


So... @Nekodachi, may you talk about this?

Well... the great majority of backers prefers wait until get the best ruleset, but how long it go to reach this goal? About that I do not have much more than to agree and wait. Complaining will not change events.

How many "updates" on ruleset this game suffered along the time until now? After all happy backers get their "rewards", where's the warranty about the ruleset never change again when SPM decides to release new products related to Super Dungeon franchise?

I know, Kickstarters are just PROJECTS where backers BELIEVE to put money and this gamble brings risks for both sides: if everything runs clear, allright, both sides wins, but in another case... backers lost money and time and the company get the worst damages like lost of good reputation, credibility, confidence of costumers/backers, money and time too, because the profit margin reduces while time passes.


To the post that you quoted: the rules updates are no longer having an effect on anything in Wave 1. Wave 1 consists of the SDE Classic core game, the frostbyte orc box, and the crown guard box. Rules for all of those are locked in and layout is almost complete. There are no more rules updates happening on those products.

Rules updates are still happening on Arcade, Pet Parade, etc. But since those products are wave 2, they are not affecting the timeline of wave 1. Wave 1 is in layout. When the layout team finishes with wave 1, I can start sending them wave 2 stuff. But, until then, may as well keep testing it.

As for requesting a warranty that the rules will NEVER change again, that isn't going to happen. I am comfortable saying up front that the rules MAY change again. That out of the way, it is the goal to make sure that such a change will not come for YEARS and by the time it does come the audience will be wanting something fresh anyway. That's how new editions of practically any game work. And that is, of course, assuming it happens at all. So to summarize: new editions? Maybe, but only if the game definitely needs it. And even then it will be years and years from now. Not something to worry about right now.

In the mean time, there is a lot of variety we can introduce to the system with new models and, in particular, new mighty monster charts. I'm particularly excited by the idea of new mighty monster charts being released to create different gaming experiences. Not to "patch" the old one or replace anything but, say, create one themed for a region, or for a boss. The more variety we can add in this way, the longer between rules updates (if there are any). But nothing is being promised here. First we have to get wave 1 out the door. Then we'll worry about expanding the game. :)

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April 24th, 2017, 2:37 pm
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The monster chart being tied to region or boss sounds awesome. What a great way to add variety so that every expedition feels different! I can't wait to see everything that's been done.


April 24th, 2017, 6:04 pm
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Quote:
In the mean time, there is a lot of variety we can introduce to the system with new models and, in particular, new mighty monster charts. I'm particularly excited by the idea of new mighty monster charts being released to create different gaming experiences. Not to "patch" the old one or replace anything but, say, create one themed for a region, or for a boss. The more variety we can add in this way, the longer between rules updates (if there are any). But nothing is being promised here. First we have to get wave 1 out the door. Then we'll worry about expanding the game. :)

Maybe with bosses of Legends is a good way to release regional boss MMCs. Covers a lot of regions. I like the idea nevertheless. Hope it happens.


April 24th, 2017, 6:37 pm
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