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 Legends Update Thread 
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Denizen
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Goblin-King wrote:
On the FB page he was asked if it was a mod or just the finished sculpt. He answered it was the one that came in the box.

Oh dear! I'd seen the pics but not read the FB page myself, didn't know about those comments.
Tooling seems to be SPM's nemesis, they have a great 3D render/print, then when it comes time to lay it out on a sprue they can't fit it for the cost (Deeproot Wolf Rider I'm looking at you! Or I should say I'm looking at the space where your bedroll should've been).
I know SPM haven't confirmed anything yet with Starfire but it wouldn't surprise me if tooling was the reason, especially given that 2nd edition box was meant to be a lower price box.
Maybe they figured they'd get one professionally painted first to show off painted pics to try soften the news?
Perhaps they will use the original 3D render for a new King Starfire model sold separately?

Sorry, lots of speculation there. Hope SPM comment on the matter soon. Also, be nice to have another Legends update! They should've been back in the office for a week now. The Rail Raiders team managed a small update (just saying).

Also, back on 1st ed Starfire, I still haven't glued the wings yet. They slot in really nicely and stay in place for the duration of a game and it's soooo much easier for storing him.


January 10th, 2017, 7:37 am
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Consul
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To be fair, there's a chance the artist has no idea what he is talking about.
Maybe it's the one who comes in the box - maybe he just thinks so...

But some info very soon would be nice...

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January 10th, 2017, 8:05 am
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Denizen
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The only way "we will be providing more information in the future." is a valid response is if the "Theories and assumptions" were wrong.

If the Theories and assumptions were 100% correct and valid, then this squashing the discussion and delay in disclosure is the same way political administrations release news Friday night so they get ignored or missed over the weekend because they know they did something wrong, unpopular and the outrage will be justified and they are trying to bury it.

Ever since August, the 'weekly' updates have been stretching to 2+ weeks now. Some 'information' would be nice.

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January 10th, 2017, 2:05 pm
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Mini-Boss
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Where are the digital content to play Legends mode?

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"Going digital means early access for your Legends content. There will be no need to wait for your physical rewards to start playing!

All backers will be invited to participate in the Super Dungeon Legends beta. Backers who pledge during the campaign will gain access to an exclusive backers' forum to provide feedback during the beta and help shape the future of Super Dungeon Legends!

Then, beginning with Super Dungeon Legends Digital, backers will receive download codes to digital content as soon as it is completed. After the initial release of Super Dungeon Legends Digital, we will release digital adventures and campaigns that use existing Super Dungeon physical content, so that you can begin playing as soon as possible. After the physical components of this Kickstarter ship to backers, the digital content we release will focus on these new components.

All of the digital content is included by pledging on this Kickstarter. Our goal is have you playing Legends as soon as possible and throughout all of 2016!"


I know the real purpose of the Kickstarter campaign was a new base game for Super Dungeon, but Soda Pop Miniatures used the gimmick Legends to attract more supporters, not to mention the Late Pledge forever open to raise more funds for the project without having to pay fees for the crowdfunding platform. So far none of the backers have a concrete view of what this expansion really is. Meanwhile, SPM launch other expansions directly into retail because many, like me, still have the hope of redemption of the game with this new game mode and buys more new retail expansions while waiting for the reward of the Kickstarter campaign.

So much depends on the new rules of the base game to get to play the Legends expansion? Is not there even a possibility of using the rules of the first edition or the Forgotten King?

You see, I do not want to do playtest, I just want to play the game (a good game), even though I have no obligation to work for free in the creative process of a company. I (and a plethora of costumers/backers) pay dearly for the products that the company offers, by the way.

I applaud the effort and dedication that many backers put to help make the project works, before anyone comes to reply that Kickstarter campaign is not pre-order and blah blah blah... Pure demagoguery.

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January 10th, 2017, 3:41 pm
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Minion
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Sigh... I'm just lurking and can see you're the most negative on the board at the moment. It's hitting the point where it feels you are just trying to start problems.

They did say at one point that the Legends rules are going to be based on the new rule system that's coming out of the beta, which means that yes, Legends does need classic and arcade to be done first. By using a similar foundation for each, they can make it easier for players to transition from one to the next instead of learning an entirely new thing.

I understand that you don't want to beta test, and that's fine, but you complain about how bad the rules are in one breath, then criticize the attempts (and "free labor") to try to make them better in the process. They are listening to the players during the beta testing, pretty well in fact, and even say when some ideas are already set.

Also, it clearly says that the digital early access for legends is a beta, which you already said you didn't want to give your free labor. Why are you starting an issue for something you don't even want to be a part of? It's all a connected process and is happening in order. Yes, it's frustrating that it's taking a while. It's frustrating that the rules have been through so much from 1 to 1.5 and now the beta, but each system has had its merits, and it's getting to where it needs to be.

Mostly I'm just frustrated that you're saying the rules are bad, then criticizing the process happening to make them better. Yes, it's a mess. They've admitted it in the kickstarter. They also said they are trying to make it better. Your negativity isn't helping anything.


January 10th, 2017, 4:13 pm
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Denizen
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But does Legends need the new ruleset to work? I though Legends was just handling non-combat interactions and throwing in special objectives into normal games. To me, that sounds like it should work with any functional set of rules for SDE. I suppose there would be the fact of how things like spawning would be handled, since currently the game operates on a timer that determines spawning.

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January 10th, 2017, 9:37 pm
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Minion
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Without being overtly negative, this campaign has indeed been a big mess. I know SPM acknowledged it. I'm glad they did. But I am really starting to wonder about the state of Legends - and how much of it needs to be ready for the digital adventures to start rolling out. Especially now that Classic is pretty much done. They completely underestimated the amount of work needed for what they were promising.

I know hope if we will see any Legends content before Q2 2017. A year and a half of delay. It might not be constructive to mention it, but backers have the fundamental right to vent, dammit !


January 10th, 2017, 9:42 pm
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Minion
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Chozo Tull wrote:
Without being overtly negative, this campaign has indeed been a big mess. I know SPM acknowledged it. I'm glad they did. But I am really starting to wonder about the state of Legends - and how much of it needs to be ready for the digital adventures to start rolling out. Especially now that Classic is pretty much done. They completely underestimated the amount of work needed for what they were promising.

I know hope if we will see any Legends content before Q2 2017. A year and a half of delay. It might not be constructive to mention it, but backers have the fundamental right to vent, dammit !


Yeah, I get it, and while I've been watching negativity rise (which is understandable) I think it's the kind of negativity from some people. It's a bit weird time wise, because the pledge manager just closed not very long ago and I finished up my pledge allll the way at the very end, so for me not that much time has passed. Plus classic just finished beta not to long ago which means if they are using the MMC for Legends, and the framework of classic to run Legends, they just got started on that not too long ago too (I say started, but there are other things they could have very well have been working on in the process, but without the player rules, they really don't have much for us to test). Not only that, but they are doing an arcade and classic mode for legends as well, which means the arcade rules might even need to be done too to have the frame for that.

This is all just speculation, and I'm not trying to take away from anyone's anger because I get it. I just don't want this to turn into a riot and end up getting another repeat of forgotten king that they feel they need to update again. Otherwise what was the point of all this? I'm just happy that board games in general have been having a heck of a couple of years. There are so many things coming out that I can just do something else and completely distract myself from this till it shows up at my door.

In the end, I'm feeling the same negative vibe as all of you, and I believe it comes down to communication. There are fires starting due to a lack thereof, and nothing is really being done to fight back against it.


January 10th, 2017, 11:19 pm
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Chozo Tull wrote:
Without being overtly negative, this campaign has indeed been a big mess. I know SPM acknowledged it. I'm glad they did. But I am really starting to wonder about the state of Legends - and how much of it needs to be ready for the digital adventures to start rolling out. Especially now that Classic is pretty much done. They completely underestimated the amount of work needed for what they were promising.

I know hope if we will see any Legends content before Q2 2017. A year and a half of delay. It might not be constructive to mention it, but backers have the fundamental right to vent, dammit !


Wouldn't that, at best, be a 6 month delay, not an 18 month delay? It was originally speculated to be delivered last month. So, not counting the fact that well before that date they said they were not going to hit it, the game is only a month "late" at this point. not 13 months.

They have also said they will be doing two wave shipping and absorbing the extra costs, which is pretty cool. A lot of people (probably the majority of backers, assuming without looking at the KS numbers or knowing what the late backer numbers are) will be getting content that isn't directly new-rules dependent soon as well. So, they know that it's an unfortunate delay (for a good reason at least) and are trying to get something into people's hands sooner rather than later without it compromising the rules development.


January 11th, 2017, 2:49 am
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I somewhat share all your sentiments mostly due to the disappointment with the final outcome of other SPM kickstarters. Every dollar spent on RK being a waste and NAS not being refined enough to be playable. FK felt good for the first few games but the cracks show not to long after. Suffice to say, Legends will be my last SPM KS and final SPM purchase ever unless it's everything we can hope it will be and more.

That being said, I'm personally grudgingly happy with the direction they've taken with hiring Justin and putting him on the Legends project. While I haven't had time to playtest, I eagerly look forward to reading every recap of play sessions. I usually enjoy reading the feedback even though it annoys me when people keep pushing their personal opinions/ideas that clearly aren't going to get accepted. It's been good ride the last 3ish months. The only unfortunate thing is, that this is how it should have been from the start, not from late last year. Sadly, that's just how it is.

At this point, I feel we should all just be happy that development of the actual rules of 2.0 looks so goddamn positive compared to previous SPM projects. Particularly compared to the iron wall BS that played out during the NAS playtesting. I can only hope the rules for legends, once 2.0 is complete will take a similar route given it's producing such good results. Impatience, annoyance and disappointment is entirely understandable and possibly even warranted at this point. However letting it boil into anger or other super negative emotions shifts our responsibilities away. We backed a kickstarter. Kickstarter is a not a store. They make that pretty !SODA! clear at checkout. To say we paid money and are entitled to X by Y time is pretty silly. We backed a company's pitch for a new product. So frequently the pitch and final product is different because that's the reality of production and development. On top of that, SPM is what it is. Deeply flawed. If you expect better/more than what they have historically delivered, then that disappointment, I say is your own fault.

Wait and watch. Pray for a good product or get involved in beta testing if you don't want to rely on a miracle. But you don't want to do that either and that's fine, that is your choice. If you're unhappy with SPM, vote with your wallet and never back them or buy from them again. Leave a review on BGG if you really want to vent. As for the money you spent on legends, if you're that negative about it, see about a refund. I think given they slipped their ship date with no firm release date (or is there?), you might be entitled to one under KS rules (not sure). If you're feeling pretty negative but still not soured enough on this ride to do that then, just sit back and wait for the best. That's pretty much the point I'm at now. Happy to wait. I have Santorini arriving next week and Kingdom death to play as well. I've got plenty of fun things to occupy myself till Legends gets its !SODA! sorted ;)


January 11th, 2017, 3:06 am
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Minion
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shoitaan wrote:
That being said, I'm personally grudgingly happy with the direction they've taken with hiring Justin and putting him on the Legends project.

Yes, except he's not assigned to do Legends stuff. It's been almost a year and no one has been able to turn even the almost-written-already Alchemist adventure into a downloadable Legends adventure PDF, and it really seems like there's no excuse, seeing as the Classic rules were in good shape a while ago.


January 11th, 2017, 5:12 am
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Minion
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With all the extra time, hopefully Legends' stories have mostly written. Then SPM could deliver the digital mini-Adventures in physical format to us. CMON did this with Arcadia Quest: Inferno.


January 11th, 2017, 5:15 am
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Denizen
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I'm also resigned to hoping and waiting. What I really don't get is why we are never told anything. Neko tells us he can't tell us anything. Deke never said anything at all. But why is that? What is stopping them from telling us "we did this and that and worked on that and noticed how it's working.... Or not"
No harm done and just a minute spent.
I don't get it and stopped trying to.

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January 11th, 2017, 5:46 am
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Minion
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Xris Wraith wrote:
I'm also resigned to hoping and waiting. What I really don't get is why we are never told anything. Neko tells us he can't tell us anything. Deke never said anything at all. But why is that? What is stopping them from telling us "we did this and that and worked on that and noticed how it's working.... Or not"
No harm done and just a minute spent.
I don't get it and stopped trying to.


I agree : that is so different from how the Forgotten King Kickstarter was handled, ... i am pretty confused and don't really know what to expect.


January 11th, 2017, 6:58 am
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Consul
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While you all wait and rage:

1.) Buy DOOM (2016)
2.) Play DOOM
3.) Be Happy

Quote:
What I really don't get is why we are never told anything. Neko tells us he can't tell us anything. Deke never said anything at all. But why is that? What is stopping them from telling us "we did this and that and worked on that and noticed how it's working.... Or not"
Yes! So much this. I would be happy if they said:
The children in the sweat shop died which is causing delays - Ok, thanks. Now we understand.
The dragon doesn't fit in any mold and it has to be re-posed - Goddammit, but now we know.
The actual rules for Legends are on hold for now - Sigh, at least we can adjust our expectations.

But the thing is that this need for information is being generated by the uncertainty.
If I had the impression everything was running smoothly I probably wouldn't care much.

Quote:
But does Legends need the new ruleset to work? I though Legends was just handling non-combat interactions and throwing in special objectives into normal games. To me, that sounds like it should work with any functional set of rules for SDE. I suppose there would be the fact of how things like spawning would be handled, since currently the game operates on a timer that determines spawning.
That's the thing. We have absolutely zero freaking idea. Well, not true. We know there is some kind of level system. But as far as I'm concerned Legends doesn't even exist yet...

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January 11th, 2017, 7:26 am
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Soulmark wrote:
shoitaan wrote:
That being said, I'm personally grudgingly happy with the direction they've taken with hiring Justin and putting him on the Legends project.

Yes, except he's not assigned to do Legends stuff. It's been almost a year and no one has been able to turn even the almost-written-already Alchemist adventure into a downloadable Legends adventure PDF, and it really seems like there's no excuse, seeing as the Classic rules were in good shape a while ago.


I'm aware he's only on 2.0 development and not the core Legends team. But given Legends is based on 2.0, he'll have some influence. Plus I know everytime we have external partners visiting our unit for a few months, simple conversations around the lunchroom table become reflected in our work as we absorb foreign knowledge and vice versa. I feel more positive for the development of Legends as a whole because a fresh viewpoint with great experiences is sitting alongside the Legends team (mentally, physically they're in different states or something right?).


January 11th, 2017, 8:09 am
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The delay I mentioned was for the digital Legends reward - we were supposed to play that "throughout most of 2016" ... I'm exaggerating on the delay out of spite, but still. We might not even see the pdfs to play them for most of 2017...


January 11th, 2017, 9:22 am
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Xris Wraith wrote:
I'm also resigned to hoping and waiting. What I really don't get is why we are never told anything. Neko tells us he can't tell us anything. Deke never said anything at all. But why is that? What is stopping them from telling us "we did this and that and worked on that and noticed how it's working.... Or not"


Simple solution to SPM not spend many time to talk about how the things is going on: just put on the KS campaign front page the tasks and highlight what already done, like Daily Magic Games do on their campaigns.

Image

No need to write a single word, just paint the accomplished task.

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January 11th, 2017, 1:08 pm
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I doubt that you can get a refund just because a kickstarter is late- since all of 15% of them deliver on time, and almost none of those are way overfunded ones (like any of the big gaming kickstarters).

Honestly, I still feel very informed in comparison to some of the other kickstarters I've taken part of (admittedly, not a high bar). But I feel less informed than I did with other Ninja Division kickstarters... so there's that. I mean, we have an approximation on delivery, and we got it well before the projected delivery date past.

And looking at the work Justin is doing, I feel like they're taking a page from Adam Poots: they seem to be perfectly willing to make a bunch of changes, and go through a lot of iterations to get the game working the way they want. That's fantastic, and the rules have improved a ton (yes, I know there are people who vehemently believe that their idea should be used and all playtesting should be abandoned, but I think there always will).

I'd love to have more information- the sort we got from previous Ninja Division Kickstarters. But I also prefer that they keep doing what they're doing with the rules- they're working great.

As for the Starfire- I do hope that doesn't replace the one in the box. I like that render a lot better than this new dragon.

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January 11th, 2017, 4:56 pm
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Denizen
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I can understand how and why some users are getting antsy over the delivery of Legends, and I feel a little responsible.
Fanboy's post on how Gauntlet is not D&D is what sparked the rules rewrite, which led to the new Beta tests, which have kind of snowballed into this delay. We kicked for this pledge, and all we've seen are words and renders and confusion from SPM.

I imagine that if SPM sent out some miniatures from the Kickstarter for people to paint and play with that we the backers would start to settle down a bit, both because we'd all have some new chibis to paint, but also because it would be a gesture of good faith from SPM, a way of them telling us "yes, we are still working on it, here's proof in your hands"

Hopefully that's what SPM has in mind with wave shipping, and hopefully it comes into effect soon.

Esp if the Slitherfire is the new model. That scaly wyrm is gonna need major work to look good. Maybe on a high perch looking down at pesky Heroes with that neck. Might work...


January 12th, 2017, 2:34 am
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