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 Legends Update Thread 
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Mini-Boss
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without people starting to sulk as like it's been kinda stated, a production update isn't gonna happen right now but maybe in about a month (mid July), I wanna ask some people about the current update:

"Next comes the line of the Grim Heralds, always exactly 800 yards from the Maw"
It stats that the Grim Heralds are always 800 yards from the Maw (2400 feet) of the nether rift, which is the centre. This would mean its the Maw which grows every time the consul wins, and decreases every time he loses. As stated before (and in the old Handbook)
"When a hero is fortunate enough to defeat one of the great generals of darkness, the Heralds withdraw and, with them, the rift recedes." and it is already said that the Heralds (thus the name) are the edge of the Rift. but now, it's saying the Heralds are in fact the '2' most outer layer of the rift, and that for another 800 yards in front of them, "the blighted, monster-haunted waters and lands that stretch exactly 800 yards beyond the Grim Heralds, whereupon Crystalia’s life overpowers the Nether Realm’s corruption, is called the Threshold."

Okay, I've no problem with expanding the lore around like that, but i'm the kinda person that sees this change as just that, a change. It's like how the original Rift was more a lava lake with a small island, on which the tower was, but that became a big void and the tower 'floats' in the middle. and how the island shape changed a lot and the placement of some places (most noticeable the Frostbyte reachs) and the complete removal of the large hot springs by Crystalia castle are annoying.. I wonder what the third version of the map will look like.. with what we are told now, the Map does finally have a scale guide.. The island is already much bigger then before..

End of the day, not hugely important and maybe it could be put down to 'character error' like how the people making the maps and recording the history in-game aren't quite getting there facts right, but there you go..

and yes, i'm the kinda person that hates it when you play a computer game which revisits and old games location and it's COMPLETELY different, with the design team trying to claim they are just "Making it look better due to better graphics" when there are ways of doing that and still KEEPING the same design and structure..

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June 27th, 2018, 10:32 pm
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Mini-Boss
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I noticed the difference, too, but the benefit of this change is that it opens up the Rift and Midnight tower for SDL adventures.

The Lore was not a central point of SDE 1.0 and the Lore in SDE FK is...well, still very light.

I think expecting/accepting changes (or just doing whatever you want in SDL) is expected/appropriate and this is still within the expected theme of SD's world in general.

I mean...how are we supposed to get to the tower in SDA 2.0 if it just flies in the air ^^;;


June 27th, 2018, 11:27 pm
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Minion
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Quote:
"And so these once pure creatures spawned to guard the Deeproot Tree and nurture all living things became creatures of destruction and despoilment."


And so, the updates we're despoiled and tainted. A sweeping lack of commas throughout the kingdom of small fizzy beverages had rendered the updates as otherworldly tomes, barely distinguishable from the dark tides of terrible fanfic that once hid away in the darker corners of ye olde interweb forums.

For some reason I still find myself doing a quick scroll through the new update every couple weeks, hoping to see something (anything) about production happening. Once I confirm that it isn't there, I question myself for thinking that was even a possibility.
Good times.


June 29th, 2018, 11:55 am
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Minion
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TheHandsomeDan wrote:
And so, the updates we're despoiled and tainted. A sweeping lack of commas throughout the kingdom of small fizzy beverages had rendered the updates as otherworldly tomes, barely distinguishable from the dark tides of terrible fanfic that once hid away in the darker corners of ye olde interweb forums.

For some reason I still find myself doing a quick scroll through the new update every couple weeks, hoping to see something (anything) about production happening. Once I confirm that it isn't there, I question myself for thinking that was even a possibility.
Good times.


Honestly I'm just not expecting anything at this stage, not even my actually kickstarter (its sad its come to that, but all my group stopped thinking its going to arrive long ago and until we see 'wave one' on our doorsteps neither do I now). That way when anything of actual substance happens I can enjoy it and if not, so be it. Its just a little disheartening for me as I'm currently in between my second and third year of University and the money I'd spent on this kickstarter would go along for me at the moment as I'm having money worries. :roll:

As for the fluff updates itself I think honestly I've just decided I don't really care about how much this new version alliances with the old fluff, mainly due to the fact that this is an RPG now and the setting honestly needed a bit of.... 'fudging' to accommodate for that anyway. Like has already been said, stuff like this I always just chalk up to the in world map makers and lore makers not being able to recreate perfect artifacts due to technological limitations etc.

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June 29th, 2018, 2:16 pm
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Minion
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The situation with the Gloomborn champion actually concerns me quite a bit.

Gloomborn Champion was one of the first fluffdates, coming just after the Centaur.
It was provided as a LEGENDS update, under the guise that it was a character in the promised lorebook. We have a good idea of how long it takes to complete, review, and approve a new mini -and based on that, I'm not buying that one bit. If they were pushing that polished image in March you can bet they were already planning to sell a mini of it separately.

I have no issue with SPM making money. They are a BUSINESS after all, they would cease to be if not for that. I do, however, take issue with the fact that they seem to be literally using the promised Legends updates to instead discretely and subtly ADVERTISE NEW PRODUCTS to us in advance.

I wonder how long it will be before the Femmeck and the new Centaur pop up in the store?


July 9th, 2018, 10:52 pm
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Ninja Corps
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TheHandsomeDan wrote:
The situation with the Gloomborn champion actually concerns me quite a bit.

Gloomborn Champion was one of the first fluffdates, coming just after the Centaur.
It was provided as a LEGENDS update, under the guise that it was a character in the promised lorebook. We have a good idea of how long it takes to complete, review, and approve a new mini -and based on that, I'm not buying that one bit. If they were pushing that polished image in March you can bet they were already planning to sell a mini of it separately.

I have no issue with SPM making money. They are a BUSINESS after all, they would cease to be if not for that. I do, however, take issue with the fact that they seem to be literally using the promised Legends updates to instead discretely and subtly ADVERTISE NEW PRODUCTS to us in advance.

I wonder how long it will be before the Femmeck and the new Centaur pop up in the store?


are you trying to say that there should never be figures to match legends art? Or that it's only "allowed" to be available after legends is out? instead of before? so, like, people can have it when it's usable for it? Or are you under the impression that no company uses hype to advertise peripheral merchandise, before and/or after hat it's peripheral for? You seem to think there's some moral or etiquette breach here, but you're not really presenting an argument for it, as nothing is happening that isn't outside of, like, global standards of selling stuff.


July 10th, 2018, 12:27 am
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Minion
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You've got to do some pretty heavy mental gymnastics not to see it, but I'll elaborate.

Company promises updates related to production of an item that they have failed (and are still failing) to produce on their original, second, third, or any indicated timeline.

Company posts updates that have literally no content related to the production of the item, instead putting out seeming random garbage that has already been confirmed not included or even offered for sale with that product. That's... Confusing and odd.

Company has actually been using those promised "update" slots, wherein they should be providing at least some hint of insight or transparency to the process to instead post a subtle early sales pitch for something else never intended to be included with the product you're supposed to be providing updates on.

That's yet another failure to hold to the promised updates, because a sales pitch for DIFFERENT products is NOT an update for this one. On top of it, that's also deliberately deceptive business practice, posing a subtle sales pitch and calling it the updates that you promised your customers. Am I saying it's necessarily"illegal"? Maybe only slightly within the realms of contract law, but that's a fickle and expensive thing to pursue. Just because something isn't necessarily illegal, doesn't mean it's not a breach of ethics. Using time and space allotted for updates about the product already purchased to instead pitch content totally outside that product is an issue.


July 10th, 2018, 1:21 am
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TheHandsomeDan wrote:
You've got to do some pretty heavy mental gymnastics not to see it, but I'll elaborate.

Company promises updates related to production of an item that they have failed (and are still failing) to produce on their original, second, third, or any indicated timeline.

Company posts updates that have literally no content related to the production of the item, instead putting out seeming random garbage that has already been confirmed not included or even offered for sale with that product. That's... Confusing and odd.

Company has actually been using those promised "update" slots, wherein they should be providing at least some hint of insight or transparency to the process to instead post a subtle early sales pitch for something else never intended to be included with the product you're supposed to be providing updates on.

That's yet another failure to hold to the promised updates, because a sales pitch for DIFFERENT products is NOT an update for this one. On top of it, that's also deliberately deceptive business practice, posing a subtle sales pitch and calling it the updates that you promised your customers. Am I saying it's necessarily"illegal"? Maybe only slightly within the realms of contract law, but that's a fickle and expensive thing to pursue. Just because something isn't necessarily illegal, doesn't mean it's not a breach of ethics. Using time and space allotted for updates about the product already purchased to instead pitch content totally outside that product is an issue.


yes yes, huge mental gymnastics. you're right. They are obligated by law to give us regular, total and meticulous production updates (you know, or none of that). Kickstarter is a pre-order system with very strict delivery dates (or, you know, the opposite of that too). They are fully obligated to give strictly scheduled updates on all other things (or, you know, not at all). The updates provided have to involve only and exclusively things that appear fully within the scope of the product you "pre-ordered" because there's no way anything within that product could relate to anything outside of it as well. Especially in a setting that is very specifically interconnected with other closely and not so closely related IPs. It is mandated to be a Madagascar like island, nothing outside in, nothing inside out, ever, lest it be some kind of huge moral failing or legal or business infringement of some kind, I guess?

Either that, or you're grasping ad the smallest of inconsequential straws for something new to cry about when it really doesn't matter at all if a picture that will be in the legends book matches a model that came out independent of legends. The absolute horror.


July 10th, 2018, 1:58 am
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Mini-Boss
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@HandsomeDan - I'm not sure if you'd call it a situation so much as 'it's already happening'.

SDL Beta included the Celestial Healer and Gloomborn Champion class.

Then the SDL KS updates includes awesome art for the Celestial Healer and Gloomborn Champion. Both of which many folks were excited about and hoped SPM would produce a mini.

And then they did with the only means they have available to them (resin).

What we don't know is if these sculpts and minis were already in the pipeline/planned before the current delays to the SDL KS or, if the KS was on track, if these would have been released as between wave minis to keep up the hype train as folks waited on Wave 2. Also, to thwart the conspiracy theory, there have been *more* masterclass resin releases that have *not* been SDL updates (Tusk Raider, SH Candy, Randy, Warg, Fungomancer, Hecate Vilehorn, and now upcoming Crystal Weaver). They also haven't turned *every* SDL KS art into a masterclass resin (but I'm still waiting on gnome tank!).

Given how long it took SPM to turn around Sweetheart Candy (and it sounds like Randy is just now starting to ship), I think it is significantly more likely (100% an assumption) that they had the sculpts, minis, art, and releases pre-planned, but they choked on the SDL KS delivery (obviously, multiple times thus far) and well...to recoup the cost they have to produce/sell the minis even if it looks bad b/c $$$ business.

The part that I get feels bad is...obviously resources went into producing the art, sculpt, and minis. Resources that could maybe? have gone into the SDL KS. Unless they were already earmarked and/or paid before they ran into the current issues. Or maybe the amount of resources for them wouldn't have made a difference with the production issues since...we have no info. Or maybe they handle budgets such that one KS product behind doesn't destroy all the other projects (thus why the other KS get fulfilled b/c it would be upsetting if I backed those and found out they were delayed b/c of a KS not related to it was behind...).

So I don't think there is really any conspiracy theory. They're simply releasing minis that folks (obviously) want (thus far every masterclass resin has been sold out of initial stock prior to the June releases) regardless of the also obvious bad taste/disrespect it is to SDL backers that are waiting on refunds and/or refuse to purchase anything until SDL KS delivers. My personal opinion is that it's a calculated business decision that makes money and they aren't trying to 'trick' folks.

I honestly feel if SPM was trying to burn down the building and get out of the business they'd have multiple KS's to run away with the $$ and obviously they are fulfilling them the best way they know how (which is to say, very slowly ;)) and spending resources producing and developing more minis for SDE with what they have available (masterclass resin, repackaged NAS).

Everyone has their personal threshold of 'enough'. Somehow mine hasn't been reached (b/c I agree this is all bananas) and I've been enjoying the MC resin and NAS crossover immensely and having a good time with the SDA 2.0 rules with PnP and dabbling with SDL.

I want a production update, too, but I also don't want a series of MORE broken promises (since that's what SPM was doing). I think it'll be interesting to see how well the Masterclass sell at Gencon (since many folks have complained about having to pay shipping) and what they bring/have in stock for SDE or if the focus will be on their other products.


July 10th, 2018, 6:22 am
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Mini-Boss
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I give odds of 4 to 1 in favour of this weeks update being a look at the wandering monk mountains. which is kinda the last 'unexplored' area.

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July 10th, 2018, 9:18 am
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Minion
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@Sleepy
Thanks for bringing the Gloomborn Champion's presence in the beta Legends rules to my attention, that much I was not previously aware of, and that changes my perspective on things. Unlike others, you've been very helpful, I appreciate that!

I've never suggested that SPM was trying to "burn down the building", but I also recognize (based on their own actions and track record) that if the metaphorical building was already on fire and falling down around us, they'd make sure to clear literally everything they could away from the flames BEFORE even letting us know the building had caught fire. I understand that businesses need to act on self preservation to survive, but there's a balance that's necessary if you want to maintain return customers... And they've publicly demonstrated more than a few choices since the Legends KS campaign ended, which show pretty clearly that they're infinitely more concerned in the immediate nickels and dimes than maintaining loyal customers for long term gains.

@ManicMan
True... Though that might be getting uncomfortably similar/close to the NAS content potentially. I suppose it depends on what direction they've gone with that portion.

I know they've said that they can't be more transparent because of potential industry backlash from existing or potential business partners (manufacturers, etc). But so long as they don't call anyone out by name, or try to put undue blame on others, that excuse really doesn't hold water. You can say "We missed our time slot, and the factory is already booked on a bigger project for the next 18 months" or "it turns out that the manufacturer couldn't produce the expected quality, so we had to make the decision to shop around for a new one". Even telling us what has happened recently would at least help give insight to where they're at: "We thought we'd found a new manufacturer, but they just couldn't handle the volume we would need". As long as you aren't throwing a specific named entity under the metaphorical bus, there's no good reason you can't share that sort of info.


July 10th, 2018, 11:53 am
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sleepy_laughter wrote:
The part that I get feels bad is...obviously resources went into producing the art, sculpt, and minis. Resources that could maybe? have gone into the SDL KS. Unless they were already earmarked and/or paid before they ran into the current issues. Or maybe the amount of resources for them wouldn't have made a difference with the production issues since...we have no info. Or maybe they handle budgets such that one KS product behind doesn't destroy all the other projects (thus why the other KS get fulfilled b/c it would be upsetting if I backed those and found out they were delayed b/c of a KS not related to it was behind...).


I've seen other people talk about "if they can do this, why aren't they just working on the KS instead" (paraphrasing). What it really is is that these resources aren't fungible. the people used to make, say, sweet heart candy, aren't people that could otherwise be developing legends. Basically, they would be making Candy, or they wouldn't be doing anything, because there's nothing for them, with their relatively narrow set of skill resource, to do when it comes to legends, or the wave 1 manufacturing or something. As a bit of a hyperbolic paralleled. It's like saying "look at all these bakers making bread when they could be curing cancer, why aren't they just working on that instead?" Because thy know how to make bread, not make science and there's no nee for bread in cancer research...at least not at the moment. :P


July 10th, 2018, 2:29 pm
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Usagi.. do you relise that according to the KS comments, that you stating that is treason and clearly wrong as we have been shown in the past unless you are very stupid and a 'Soda pop lover' who thinks they can do no wrong?

^_^ yeah.. it can be hard to be more level headed. Oh and it seams most doctors are saying you shouldn't eat more then 2 slices of bread a day cause it's unhealthy ¬_¬ (just been going through a lot of … kinda major health issues.. like with most health issues, partly my own fault. I can probably get away with saying that about myself but it seams I can't when referring to others..)

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July 10th, 2018, 3:02 pm
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Minion
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@Usagi
That's an argument I understand and agree with you on, but it wasn't what I was getting at to begin with.

I would be far more concerned if they weren't making anything else since there Kickstarter campaigns happened, because then they WOULD basically be guaranteed to be out of cash now. Now if they started producing new high volume plastic miniatures games at high volume... That might be a lot more upsetting, but that's not where we are. It seems they've stuck to paper products and a few resins for the most part, and that seems wise in a lot of ways.


July 10th, 2018, 3:06 pm
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Mini-Boss
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@HandsomeDan - sorry I didn't mean you were implying SPM was burning down the house (just venting on my own a bit!)

I think it's justified/expected that SPM will need extra funds to deliver the SDL KS given the delay. The frustrating part (which I don't agree with) is the lack of refunds and communication (which...well, let's be honest...they're just often really bad/wrong/late on non-KS stuff too).


July 10th, 2018, 6:41 pm
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Mini-Boss
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I just read something very funny on the KS comments.. I kinda should stop reading such rubbish but oh well.

It claims that if SPM published an 'honest production update' that all the people throwing acid would stop.... I've said before and i'll say it again: nope.

lets see if I get the figures about right.. 50% of people won't believe it and will call it 'another lie', 25% of people will believe it but take it with a pinch of salt, 10% of people will believe it as being completely true, 10% of people won't know what to believe, 5% of people will just moan that the update should have been done earlier but will give no clue really as to which side they are on.

Out of the first 50%, 35% of them will carry on throwing acid, 10% will just carry on sulking and 5% demand that if it was true and not a lie, the company would throw in tons of free stuff to prove it (as if that proves anything)..

sound about right?

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July 11th, 2018, 1:13 pm
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ManicMan wrote:
I just read something very funny on the KS comments.. I kinda should stop reading such rubbish but oh well.

It claims that if SPM published an 'honest production update' that all the people throwing acid would stop.... I've said before and i'll say it again: nope.

lets see if I get the figures about right.. 50% of people won't believe it and will call it 'another lie', 25% of people will believe it but take it with a pinch of salt, 10% of people will believe it as being completely true, 10% of people won't know what to believe, 5% of people will just moan that the update should have been done earlier but will give no clue really as to which side they are on.

Out of the first 50%, 35% of them will carry on throwing acid, 10% will just carry on sulking and 5% demand that if it was true and not a lie, the company would throw in tons of free stuff to prove it (as if that proves anything)..

sound about right?


If you're talking about just the people who comment on kickstarter, i think you're being way too optimistic. Seems most people there are just there to be vitriolic. They will hate on everything regardless of what it is. It's basically the youtube comment section at this point.


July 11th, 2018, 2:17 pm
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Minion
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ManicMan wrote:
I just read something very funny on the KS comments.. I kinda should stop reading such rubbish but oh well.

It claims that if SPM published an 'honest production update' that all the people throwing acid would stop.... I've said before and i'll say it again: nope.


An "honest production update" would not stop all the unhappy people posting toxic posts, but it would give the less vocal majority of people to have more confidence in SPM/ND. These people will likely then post more non-toxic posts to drown out the more vocal minority. Nevertheless, that vocal minoirty likely have increase in size due to both setbacks not in control by SPM/ND and the communication/decisions made by SPM/ND.


July 11th, 2018, 2:26 pm
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yep..

I remember in the old days of video sharing before youtube.. idiots posted 'Me too' all the time.. now with the rise of video sharing making a lot of money illegally.. oh wait, YouTube.. simpler name, people post "First" for some reason.. I guess less words cause people are getting dumber? that said, I still say the world of computers went down hill when they decided to sell pre-build computers ¬_¬… some people these days use a computer without even knowing the difference between RAM and ROM.. sigh.. but that's another matter..

I doubt there'll be any real news update till end of the month, start of next cause stuff takes time but it would be nice to be wrong and them be earlier ^_^

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July 11th, 2018, 4:12 pm
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ManicMan wrote:
yep..

I doubt there'll be any real news update till end of the month, start of next cause stuff takes time but it would be nice to be wrong and them be earlier ^_^


See, and I thought someone said that last month. Honestly, I'm bored with the lore updates. I feel like we're being talked over, or around, or at, what have you. I'm a late backer, so thankfully I can't engage on the KS comments. But at least the KS comment space occasionally gets contact from someone at SPM. I want to know someone's listening to us, too.

I want this to succeed so I get my stuff. I want to believe that they're not just sitting on their thumbs and doing everything but working on getting this KS done. I want some reassurance.


July 12th, 2018, 12:13 am
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