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 SDE 2.0 Explore vs Arcade Status Effects 
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Mini-Boss
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Joined: October 29th, 2012, 8:56 pm
Posts: 514
Finally got around to reading the 2.0 Explore rules and noticed the 'effect' of status effects are only described on the Reference page of each rulebook and they are not exactly the same. I generally use the Explore rules as 'how it should be/baseline' and wonder about how Arcade is intended to work. As usual there is always the 'text on the cards takes precedence over the rulebook' rule, but I was wondering if other folks were also running into these.

The big difference in SDE 2.0 appears to be that status effects 'hit' during the models upkeep at the beginning of activation are removed at the end of activation for heroes and consul models. So status effects like Hex and Bane need to be reapplied after a model activates and Fire will typically only deal one extra wound before being removed at the end of the model's activation. Of note, if a model does NOT activate, then status effects can persist through turns. For heroes, you can't activate all of them per turn and in Explore, the Consul is limited via skull points to activate 16 bit monsters and just spawned monsters, so theoretically status effects on 16 bit monsters will persist if you choose not to activate them, but then Fire only deals damage when a model is activated during upkeep and auras don't end until upkeep either so...a 16 bit monster with an active aura that's on Fire may be in the Consul's best interest to *not* activate if Fire would deal the killing blow unless you want to deny the heroes the loot from the monster.

Anyways: References pages:

=Arcade P14 Hero Activation (before Upkeep)
Once the Hero has completed all of its chosen actions and movement, remove all status effect tokens from the Hero.

=Arcade P41 Status Effects
At the end of a model’s activation remove all status effect tokens from it.

=Explore P14 Activation (before Upkeep)
Once the model has completed all of its chosen actions and movement, remove all status effect tokens from the model.

=Explore P30 Status Effects
At the end of a model’s activation remove all status effect tokens from it.


These status effects seem to work the same regardless of Explore vs Arcade so I don't have questions about them, I think they're consistent.
=Fire
=Immobile

These status effects are a tad different:
=Bane - Explore discard the highest result rolled on defense vs. Arcade Monsters get -1 ARM
=Hex - Explore discard the highest result rolled on attack vs. Arcade Monsters get -1 STR
=Knockdown - Explore may not move until you spend all your move points or 1 action point to stand up vs. cannot Monster perform Commands until the next Move command and removes status effect instead
=Slow - worded the same, but Arcade gangs work differently
=Ice - worded the same, but Arcade gangs might? work differently
=Poison - worded the same, but Arcade gangs work differently

======================

Bane & Hex - For Arcade, it's pretty clear, monsters get -1 ARM or -1 STR and don't defend/attack using dice rolls or any other stats. It can be better or worse than the Explore version where the Consul must roll dice to defend/attack. I had been playing heroes get -1 to their defense or offense roll if they get Bane/Hex since this seemed to be fair and consistent since Arcade mobs are guaranteed the STR and ARM they have.

However, if you look at the back of Shadow Guard Arcade Gang: A model suffering Bane discards the highest result rolled anytime it makes a defense roll. If you check The Midnight Queen Arcade Dungeon Boss card: A model suffering Hex discards the highest result rolled anytime it makes an offense roll. This would make Bane & Hex status effects more powerful against the heroes compared to the Arcade Gangs.

How have other folks been playing Hex/Bane in Arcade? I prefer to play the way I've been b/c it is consistent with how Hex/Bane works against the monsters (would just need rewording) and it favors the heroes compared to the Explore rules.

======================

Knockdown - The Arcade description is pretty straightforward - the monster loses the option to do anything until the next Move command. But the wording leaves an opening for Rules Lawyering that the Regroup command is NOT THE SAME as the Move command.

Only Arcade MMC 7, 9, and 11 do not have the Move command (7 and 9 both have Regroup), so based on the literal wording, a monster that has Knockdown at the end of the heroes' activation on MMC 6, 8, and 10 do not activate on MMC 7, 9, and 11. For a 5-6 player Arcade match, MMC 3 (RG), 7 (RG), 9, 11 (RG), and 13 do not have the Move command. This would make Knockdown much more powerful for heroes in Arcade. Regardless if a monster is able to move, they get the +1 ARM bonus when a Regroup command is given (P26 Regroup)

The wording on Arcade P26 for Regroup only indicates it's similar, but not literally the same as the Move command.

The Regroup command is very similar to the Move command, except the monsters target a dungeon exit. When the monsters receive a Regroup command, move them exactly as if they had received a Move command, with the following exceptions:

This is not clarified on the Monster card, either - see Dragonborn Arcade Gang:

A Hero suffering Knockdown may not move or perform any other action until it spends 1 action point or all of its movement points to remove the Knockdown token.

So in this case, it's advantageous for the Heroes b/c they get the the option to spend 1 action point instead of only being able to spend all their movement.

How have other folks been playing Knockdown in Arcade? I believe the spirit is that Regroup *should* remove the knockdown token. If you did not, then for MMC 7, you could argue that mobs that are knocked down do not perform anything related to the Challenge card or heal from the Spawn command. For MMC 9, I think it's clear that they should *not* do Unique, but you could argue about Challenge. MMC 9, I think it's clear they do not do Unique or Epic Fight and whether they do remove Knockdown or not is mostly relevant to the following Move action on MMC 12. Ultimately, how you interpret Knockdown based on the current wording greatly changes its impact in a game vs. Mobs. In regards to heroes, I misplayed this completely, but I intend to use the card wording moving forward as it's advantageous to the heroes and does not have as big of an impact compared to Hex/Bane, imo.

======================

Slow - For Arcade Minions, they may be slowed, but this has no impact as they do not use their movement points. After a bonded elite moves, they are placed beside the bonded elite. If they are not bonded to an elite, then they don't move during a Move or Regroup Command. During Consul Clean-up phase Check for Stragglers (Arcade P33) they are then placed beside a bonded elite if available, else removed from the board.

======================

Ice - A model suffering Ice may not use unique actions. In Arcade (P27 Unique), Monsters activate all unique actions on their cards, in the order they are listed...Only solo monsters and elites perform unique actions. Ice on an Elites works as expected - they cannot perform any unique actions, even ones granted to them by Minions. But how about minions that grant unique actions to the Gang's Elite?

Arcade P23 Gang Card:
BONDED MONSTER STATS: Bonded monsters have unique actions, abilities, hearts, movement, and armor just like Elites. A gang’s elite benefits from a bonded monster’s abilities and unique actions so long as the bonded monster is within two squares of the elite.

Based on this wording, Ice has no effect on bonded minions or elites in terms of preventing the Gang Elite from performing their unique actions. Flavor wise, I would perceive that if a minion or bonded elite was Iced, the Elite could not use their unique action. This is more relevant for minions/bonded elites that have Overcharge unique actions since many minions do not have unique actions and maybe depends on if you think whether the mere presence of a minion gives the elite access to the unique action or if the minion itself is performing the unique action.

How have other folks been playing Ice in Arcade? From my end, I want to play Ice affects the model and prevents elites from using the minion's overcharge action, but the wording in the rulebook indicates that the minion only needs to be bonded and Ice is only relevant on the Elite.

======================

Poison - I think this ones easy. Poisoned minions do not reduce the gang's action points b/c they technically perform no actions, but Poisoned Elites (and bonded Elites) do reduce actions points down to 1 minimum.

======================

I think the Monster Gangs P21 could be improved or Status Effects P41 improved to better clarify how status effects works with gangs since I'm pretty sure P41 Status Effects is just a copy paste of the Explore rules.


February 25th, 2018, 3:52 am
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Mini-Boss
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Joined: October 29th, 2012, 8:56 pm
Posts: 514
Adding an update based on responses I received in other threads.

=Bane & Hex=
Arcade Monsters suffer -1 ARM/-1 STR
Heroes still suffer discard highest rolled result on offense/defense as per Explore rules and what's written on the back of the Arcade monster's card (which take precedent over the rulebook minus errata).

Less punishing in 2.0 regardless simply b/c status effects are removed at end of activation, but still quite meaningful.


March 2nd, 2018, 5:50 pm
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