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 King sprout ruling 
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Bottle Cap
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Joined: December 14th, 2015, 2:23 am
Posts: 9
Hi I got an easy question about king sprout shapeshift, but can't find the answer online

If sprout die it force shapeshift into king sprout that's easy, but does it keep is 2 damage or it get fully recovered? Because normally it will be remove from board.


March 14th, 2017, 4:44 pm
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Minion
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Joined: June 2nd, 2016, 1:33 am
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Hello,

That's a good question. Normally when a model shapeshifts, it keeps all tokens. In this case, however, the shapeshift does not happen until a model is destroyed. Since the original model was destroyed, all tokens should be removed. IOW, it's not the same model so all effects get wiped out and King Sprout starts fresh.


March 14th, 2017, 4:52 pm
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Ninja Corps
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Joined: March 25th, 2012, 9:44 pm
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I don't know that that is an accurate answer. The shapeshift for king sprout happens when the sprout dies, sure. But, it's not restricted to only then. You can shapeshift to King Sprout whenever you want (and are allowed to shapeshift normally). Nothing on the card says anything about removing damage or anything. In fact, it specifically says "Instead of being removed from play it immediately shapeshifts" under forced shift. So there is no chance for tokens, status or damage, to be removed.


March 14th, 2017, 5:32 pm
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Minion
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Usagi wrote:
I don't know that that is an accurate answer. The shapeshift for king sprout happens when the sprout dies, sure. But, it's not restricted to only then. You can shapeshift to King Sprout whenever you want (and are allowed to shapeshift normally). Nothing on the card says anything about removing damage or anything. In fact, it specifically says "Instead of being removed from play it immediately shapeshifts" under forced shift. So there is no chance for tokens, status or damage, to be removed.


Hi Usagi,

I was referring to when the model is shifted because of death, not voluntarily, as was the question :)

Good counter-point on the "instead of being removed" part, though. I would still be tempted to play it the way I stated as otherwise you've effectively already taken him half down by this point and the shift didn't give him any extra health. I'll admit I'm not confident in saying that it's intended 100% though.


March 14th, 2017, 5:37 pm
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Bottle Cap
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Joined: December 14th, 2015, 2:23 am
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Hi thank you both for the quick answer.


Every game I have palyed with sprout this question was ask. Im playing it exactly like Usagi says, but at the same time both of your answer your answer seem's to be the right answer.

Then if sprout get destroyed and does not get heal, will the hero count him as a destroyed 16-bit monster, in the second edition classic rules or not?

And what about if it get heal?

What is your thinking on this one?


March 14th, 2017, 8:31 pm
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Ninja Corps
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when the sprout model is "killed" it doesn't actually die. That triggers the "forced shift" ability which causes it to shapeshift instead of dying. The rules for what happens during a shapeshift are clear. the model retains all tokens and damage. So, when a sprout is killed, the destruction is overridden by a shapeshift which follows all the normal rules for a shapeshift. So it's not a destroyed anything under any ruleset. IF it gets healed before that, great, it takes more damage to force it to shift. If it gets healed after that, that's also fine, that's just healing king sprout.


March 15th, 2017, 4:04 am
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Denizen
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Joined: July 5th, 2012, 2:03 pm
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Timmer wrote:
I would still be tempted to play it the way I stated as otherwise you've effectively already taken him half down by this point and the shift didn't give him any extra health.

I'm not sure why this would be a problem. The forced change should be at a disadvantage over choosing to change otherwise why would the heroes ever attack the sprout? Why would the consul willing change to the king sprout if effectively loses 2 wounds over letting the sprout die?


March 15th, 2017, 1:55 pm
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Minion
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Joined: June 2nd, 2016, 1:33 am
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Hm, that's a good point.

My thought is that otherwise it's simply a four wound Elite, just disguised as a lil Sprout for the first two wounds, but I can definitely see the view from others. I've only played this spawn in Arcade games so I haven't played them with the Classic rules where the Consul gets to decide when to shift so this is just thinking out loud.

The lesson here is that SPM really needs to clarify some shapeshift rules for both Arcade and Classic. :)


March 15th, 2017, 2:21 pm
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Ninja Corps
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Imriel wrote:
Timmer wrote:
I would still be tempted to play it the way I stated as otherwise you've effectively already taken him half down by this point and the shift didn't give him any extra health.

I'm not sure why this would be a problem. The forced change should be at a disadvantage over choosing to change otherwise why would the heroes ever attack the sprout? Why would the consul willing change to the king sprout if effectively loses 2 wounds over letting the sprout die?


I had never thought of this. Can you Shape Shift into King Sprout during your turn, eat some Hero lunch, swap the next turn back into Sprout, and then when they kill you the Forced Shape Shift triggers you into a King Sprout with full health? For some reason, without cards in front of me, I didn't think King Sprout had the Shape Shift ability...


March 15th, 2017, 3:27 pm
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Minion
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Joined: June 2nd, 2016, 1:33 am
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He does not. In fact, he has Fixed Form which explicitly forbids the model from shapeshifting back.

BTW, if you ever need to reference a card away from your game: http://sde.invarti.com/library is fantastic :)


March 15th, 2017, 4:38 pm
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