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Mini-Boss
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On facing, you can get rid of a LOT of the facing problems if you simply limit facing to the four cardinal directions (and have no diagonals).

That alone could simplify things decently.

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June 25th, 2018, 8:51 pm
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Usagi wrote:
I really want to get out of every clan, and ninja, being pigeon holed into a single element that ends up making a whole team very samey, while at the same time making them entirely segregated from everything else everyone else has.



Can you please elaborate on this?

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June 25th, 2018, 11:39 pm
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Spazzfist wrote:
Can you please elaborate on this?


I think Usagi means Clans are tied to a particular element affinity and its playstyle: Tanchyo will always be about movement and ranged, Yamazaru is always tough and defense orientated, Tora on offense. Its not an awful idea, but could be easy to slip into making all the Clans kinda generic and players will pick almost parallel skill upgrades as they are the "best picks". There is scope for moving some skills around, with possible restrictions (Tough could be a general skill, but Kunoichi and Yajiri cant pick it as they are too squishy). Ive thought of similar stuff to try work into skills and the progression end of the game:

-Hybrid clans (Metal = Fire & Earth, Tempest = Air & Water, Divine = Air & Spirit, etc etc), possibility for new skill sets.
-A wheel of all 6 affinities and the possibility of picking skills from the 2 affinities bordering the models own affinity:
Fire -> Earth -> Spirit -> Water -> Air -> Void -> Fire -> Earth etc etc
-Shorten xp limits for levelling but gain a upgrade point for each level up, and balance out skills and stat boosts so they cost between 1-4 or such to "buy". Higher "tier" skills cost more, with fluctuations for affinity and such. Possible diminishing returns for stat upgrades to stop people dumping points into AT to make glass cannons (1st point costs 2, 2nd costs 3, 3rd costs 5.....) Could help if a skill dominates to just increase the price rather than have rewrite or drop if unworkable. (Balance nightmare though to get all 40+ skills to a good cost base)


Been thinking about a good "entry point" for us and I think scenarios are a nice start: most are just not good (Brawl and Search need to go, hesitant on VIP and Champion). So needto come up with 3 or 4 scenarios or adapt existing ones to play smoother. I feel we need to figure out what a player will be doing in the game first and then build and tweak the rules and clan balance around that...and I will say I dont think combat should be the crux of the game, just another element of it!

If can crowbar rules to use SDE boards into NAS, have had an idea for a 4 tile long Infiltrate mode with the Sentries and maybe traps as players try to race a single Ninja to the end spot. Ditto a Intercept the Messenger but with a player trying to get their messenger through a gauntlet of opposing Ninjas.


June 26th, 2018, 1:01 am
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Mini-Boss
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Alright, I have gone through the rulebook and here are the rules which I would like to bring forward for consideration:

Tokens
There are a lot of tokens and it seems that there is a common complaint that people would like to see them lessened.

Activation.
Hearkening back to Blood Bowl, the common convention used to tell which players have gone and which have not, was to turn the player 180° after they had made their move. In NAS, it requires tokens.

I might suggest a system like Heroscape where you have order markers for unit types. The order markers are marked 1, 2, 3 and X. Your #1, you activate first, and so on. The X marker is a bluff to not allow your opponents to have perfect information. What this also allows is for unit types to be activated more than once on a turn. So if you give your Chunin the 1,2 and 3 orders, then that models would go all three actions, but then the rest of your force will do nothing. And should your chunin be taken out, then the rest of your turn is wasted.

Now I say "unit type" because if you give your order #1 to your Kaiken, then ANY one of your Kaiken on the board could be moved with that order. And again, multiple orders on the kaiken could even mean that one kaiken is moving more often.

Upkeep
Healing House
I am feeling that this is a big contributor to why the game does not feel deadly. It is hard to take somebody off the field of battle, and when you do, they are bouncing right back again. When you are in a league, you want to be able to take people down a peg by killing off their best guys. But with this system it is hard to take them down, let alone keep them down. More on this later....

Combat
I seem to recall that there were people that found the whole combat system confusing whereby you eliminate the conflicting symbols, etc. Personally, this is one of my favourite things about the game.

However, there is one glaring issue which came flooding back to me once I started looking at the rules again and that is the gross overpower of the Void Clan. Void is, as it stands, the only symbol which will injure the defender. So when the Void clan has Void mastery and can reroll any dice which is not a void, suddenly their attacks become super powerful. Much more so than anyone else's.

What I would propose is that, like any affinity test, that the clan symbol is the one which will injure the defender. So the Water symbol will injure for somebody defending against the water clan and so on. The simple fix to this would be to make it so that the clan's current symbol's combat effect will simply swap places with the Void effect. So, to give an example, if someone from the earth clan was attacking, then the Earth symbol would injure the defender and the Void symbol would stun the defender. This provides a clean and easy balance.

Stealth
I still maintain that models with larger bases should not be able to be stealthy. But, to be fair, I have never played a game with oni before. This is more of a thematic issue for me (and it even says it in their description pg 21"They may not be the most stealthy, but their effect...)

Ronin
There was one ronin that everybody was screaming about how much they hated him. He is not in the book, so maybe a KS add on?

Leagues
Injury Table
The injury table is WEAK! I want to see a more involved system whereby the teams can face permanent injuries or losses. I would recommend doing a "d66" system, whereby you roll one white die and one black die and compare the results to the chart. But the worst that happens is a model might miss a couple of games. Once a team gets powerful, they will be impossible to curb. Not that they won't be
hard to deal with even with a tougher system, but this is Nerfed way too much. They's swinging swords at each other people! Somebody is going to get an eye poked out! My mother has assured me of such things!

X.P.
I feel like Chunin and even Madoushi should start with more XP than the rank and file. Thematically it makes sense, and they are already pretty powerful with their starting skills.

I also would like to see an opportunity for players who level up to get a skill which is outside of their normal house abilities. Maybe this could be a result to choose from a doubles result.

Mercenaries
With a tougher system, then it may be that one team goers into a match with fewer players. I would suggest the Blood Bowl Freebooter and Star Player rules whereby the underdog team can make up the difference with Kaiken or Yajiri mercenaries or gain the sympathy of a ronin who wants to lend a hand for the match. The downside of these temporary players is that they would not be able to benefit from clan abilities or be able to use rerolls. But they are better than nothing!

Would love to hear people's feedback on these ideas.

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June 26th, 2018, 1:17 am
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Danteire wrote:
-A wheel of all 6 affinities and the possibility of picking skills from the 2 affinities bordering the models own affinity:
Fire -> Earth -> Spirit -> Water -> Air -> Void -> Fire -> Earth etc etc


I like this one. It reminds me of the agenda wheel from Monsterpocalypse. Maybe this could be done in conjunction with what I had mentioned with doubles yielding something from out of affinity. But in this case you would be limited to a bordering affinity.

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June 26th, 2018, 1:22 am
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Danteire wrote:
Spazzfist wrote:
Can you please elaborate on this?


I think Usagi means Clans are tied to a particular element affinity and its playstyle: Tanchyo will always be about movement and ranged, Yamazaru is always tough and defense orientated, Tora on offense. Its not an awful idea, but could be easy to slip into making all the Clans kinda generic and players will pick almost parallel skill upgrades as they are the "best picks". There is scope for moving some skills around, with possible restrictions (Tough could be a general skill, but Kunoichi and Yajiri cant pick it as they are too squishy). Ive thought of similar stuff to try work into skills and the progression end of the game:

-Hybrid clans (Metal = Fire & Earth, Tempest = Air & Water, Divine = Air & Spirit, etc etc), possibility for new skill sets.
-A wheel of all 6 affinities and the possibility of picking skills from the 2 affinities bordering the models own affinity:
Fire -> Earth -> Spirit -> Water -> Air -> Void -> Fire -> Earth etc etc
-Shorten xp limits for levelling but gain a upgrade point for each level up, and balance out skills and stat boosts so they cost between 1-4 or such to "buy". Higher "tier" skills cost more, with fluctuations for affinity and such. Possible diminishing returns for stat upgrades to stop people dumping points into AT to make glass cannons (1st point costs 2, 2nd costs 3, 3rd costs 5.....) Could help if a skill dominates to just increase the price rather than have rewrite or drop if unworkable. (Balance nightmare though to get all 40+ skills to a good cost base)


Been thinking about a good "entry point" for us and I think scenarios are a nice start: most are just not good (Brawl and Search need to go, hesitant on VIP and Champion). So needto come up with 3 or 4 scenarios or adapt existing ones to play smoother. I feel we need to figure out what a player will be doing in the game first and then build and tweak the rules and clan balance around that...and I will say I dont think combat should be the crux of the game, just another element of it!

If can crowbar rules to use SDE boards into NAS, have had an idea for a 4 tile long Infiltrate mode with the Sentries and maybe traps as players try to race a single Ninja to the end spot. Ditto a Intercept the Messenger but with a player trying to get their messenger through a gauntlet of opposing Ninjas.


This is basically what I mean. Clan teams ended up looking the same, individual ninjas ended up all with the same "best" skill, etc. The oncept of buying skills with XP (and rating all the skills with an XP Cost) is something that appeals to me, as I like systems like that. But, it would also preclude the ability to get a bonus stat raised instead of a skill and can create a similar "sameyness" to ninja, both within a team, or as a patter of teams over time, when you can 100% control what they get too. So it also has it's down side.

Spazzfist wrote:
Alright, I have gone through the rulebook and here are the rules which I would like to bring forward for consideration:

Tokens
There are a lot of tokens and it seems that there is a common complaint that people would like to see them lessened.

Activation.
Hearkening back to Blood Bowl, the common convention used to tell which players have gone and which have not, was to turn the player 180° after they had made their move. In NAS, it requires tokens.

I might suggest a system like Heroscape where you have order markers for unit types. The order markers are marked 1, 2, 3 and X. Your #1, you activate first, and so on. The X marker is a bluff to not allow your opponents to have perfect information. What this also allows is for unit types to be activated more than once on a turn. So if you give your Chunin the 1,2 and 3 orders, then that models would go all three actions, but then the rest of your force will do nothing. And should your chunin be taken out, then the rest of your turn is wasted.

Now I say "unit type" because if you give your order #1 to your Kaiken, then ANY one of your Kaiken on the board could be moved with that order. And again, multiple orders on the kaiken could even mean that one kaiken is moving more often.

Upkeep
Healing House
I am feeling that this is a big contributor to why the game does not feel deadly. It is hard to take somebody off the field of battle, and when you do, they are bouncing right back again. When you are in a league, you want to be able to take people down a peg by killing off their best guys. But with this system it is hard to take them down, let alone keep them down. More on this later....

Combat
I seem to recall that there were people that found the whole combat system confusing whereby you eliminate the conflicting symbols, etc. Personally, this is one of my favourite things about the game.

However, there is one glaring issue which came flooding back to me once I started looking at the rules again and that is the gross overpower of the Void Clan. Void is, as it stands, the only symbol which will injure the defender. So when the Void clan has Void mastery and can reroll any dice which is not a void, suddenly their attacks become super powerful. Much more so than anyone else's.

What I would propose is that, like any affinity test, that the clan symbol is the one which will injure the defender. So the Water symbol will injure for somebody defending against the water clan and so on. The simple fix to this would be to make it so that the clan's current symbol's combat effect will simply swap places with the Void effect. So, to give an example, if someone from the earth clan was attacking, then the Earth symbol would injure the defender and the Void symbol would stun the defender. This provides a clean and easy balance.

Stealth
I still maintain that models with larger bases should not be able to be stealthy. But, to be fair, I have never played a game with oni before. This is more of a thematic issue for me (and it even says it in their description pg 21"They may not be the most stealthy, but their effect...)

Ronin
There was one ronin that everybody was screaming about how much they hated him. He is not in the book, so maybe a KS add on?

Leagues
Injury Table
The injury table is WEAK! I want to see a more involved system whereby the teams can face permanent injuries or losses. I would recommend doing a "d66" system, whereby you roll one white die and one black die and compare the results to the chart. But the worst that happens is a model might miss a couple of games. Once a team gets powerful, they will be impossible to curb. Not that they won't be
hard to deal with even with a tougher system, but this is Nerfed way too much. They's swinging swords at each other people! Somebody is going to get an eye poked out! My mother has assured me of such things!

X.P.
I feel like Chunin and even Madoushi should start with more XP than the rank and file. Thematically it makes sense, and they are already pretty powerful with their starting skills.

I also would like to see an opportunity for players who level up to get a skill which is outside of their normal house abilities. Maybe this could be a result to choose from a doubles result.

Mercenaries
With a tougher system, then it may be that one team goers into a match with fewer players. I would suggest the Blood Bowl Freebooter and Star Player rules whereby the underdog team can make up the difference with Kaiken or Yajiri mercenaries or gain the sympathy of a ronin who wants to lend a hand for the match. The downside of these temporary players is that they would not be able to benefit from clan abilities or be able to use rerolls. But they are better than nothing!

Would love to hear people's feedback on these ideas.


some comments on this stuff. Activation tokens could be eliminated if facing were eliminated (not pro or con on either side really, just commenting) because the turn 180 can be used then.

I do think the healing house could e changed. Making it important to have a deeper roster for a team is one of my goals. Ninjas being able to bounce back without consequence super fast is a problem for sure. I talked previously about an injury system that has worked fairly well for my group. That's more of a meta strategy thing when it comes to in-game though. it doesn't prevent ninjas from bouncing back fast, it just punishes them later for doing it too much. changing the in game could work too...possibly even somewhat related to my post-game injury system. Something like instead of leaving the healing house (or two leaving, if you pick that as the turn bonus thing) you roll two dice and they leave normally. but doubles has some sort of effect, mostly negative, possibly positive. Like, double void takes them out of the game for the rest of the game or something. Off the top of my head at least.

I agree that combat is pretty solid as is. I don't like the idea of swapping what symbol does what for every clan, though. That gets very confusing very fast and super puts off new people especially. My idea (without something specific to back it up yet) is to change what mastery skills do instead of changing everything about combat to accommodate masteries when it comes to combat percentages. It's a much simpler approach and can turn masteries int something 9at least to me) more interesting.

I really have no problems with stealth. the only issues I have with large base models is they are a bit wonky when it comes to elevation when they are part way on and off things. also a slight numerical wonkeyness on the number of spaces that count as "back arc" between when they face straight or diagonal. but that is literally next to nothing, and would go away if facing goes away anyways.

I also don't think chunin and such need to start with "extra XP". they already start significantly stronger than other models. that's basically extra levels you just don't customize, outside of choosing their skills. It could be a conceivable thing to make chunin more "customizable" from the team's creation, as they are almost the avatar of the player. That's something that could come in with overhauling the stats in general as well.


June 26th, 2018, 1:57 am
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Bottle Cap

Joined: June 26th, 2018, 12:20 am
Posts: 3
Hello Everyone!

It's my first time posting here and my first time since 2006 in a community forum. I'm from Spain , so sorry for my english.

I've read the thread and I have some ideas and suggestions:

Zone of influence: Maintain the same as the corerules: If no longer bases will be available, adding a white point or something to the base for the upcoming miniatures.

Element Effects dice changes:
- Air: The attacker may move the denfender or himself three spaces*
- Water: All models in Defender's Zone of Influence move one space backwards*

*If the models end the movement in a space occupied with other models, or end of the board, it's get stunned, a move to an adyacent clear space.

Timing of dice effects:
- To make easier, High Movement go first, in a tie, attackers go first.

CLANS
A few Ideas:

WEAPONS
Models with no close combat weapons likea spear, gain Range Attacks 2, but no additional dices.

WHO?: Yamazaru Chunin, Son Goku, Kitsune Madoushi, Ika Chunin, Mizuchi, Ijin Kunoichi, ijin Oni, Benkei, Goemon, Komuso, Miyamoto Mushasi, Momotaro, Samurai Sentries with Spears

Ranged Attacks per ranged attack weapons:
- Kitsune Poison Blowdart ---> 3 Squares, +1 Attack Dice, Stealthy, Rolled Spirit poisons target.
- Tora Rifle ---> 4 Squares, +2 Attack Dice, Spend one move action to reload.
- Ijin Crossbow ---> 4 Squares, + 2 Attack Dice, Spend one move action to reload.
- Ika/Yamazaru Bow 5 ---> 5, + 1 Attack Dice, Stealthy
- Tanchyo Long Bow---> 6 Squares, + 2 Attack Dice, Air may be chosen instead of Void or Earth Results.

Yamazaru Madoushi Flute/blowdart ---> 3 Squares, +1 Attack Dice, Stealthy, Rolled Earth slow target.

Elemental Shurinkens for clans?

DISCARDED SKILLS
- Chunin and Madoushi: Gain the initial discarded skill in shinobi range.

ONIS
- Yamazaru, Ika and ijin Oni: Gain an whirling attack where all the models in his Zone of Influence are affected, enemy or not, after that the Oni gets stunned.
- Tora, Kitsune and Tanchyo: Gain an Precission attack where all the enemy in his front Zone of Influence are affected, after that the Oni gets stunned.

Obviusly Koban must be improved if any changes succes.

Have more ideas but I dont make this post boring.

Be cruel if proceed, I don't have any problems with that.


June 26th, 2018, 2:15 am
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Bottle Cap

Joined: June 26th, 2018, 12:20 am
Posts: 3
Hello Everyone!

It's my first time posting here and my first time since 2006 in a community forum. I'm from Spain , so sorry for my english.

I've read the thread and I have some ideas and suggestions:

Zone of influence: Maintain the same as the corerules: If no longer bases will be available, adding a white point or something to the base for the upcoming miniatures.

Element Effects dice changes:
- Air: The attacker may move the denfender or himself three spaces*
- Water: All models in Defender's Zone of Influence move one space backwards*

*If the models end the movement in a space occupied with other models, or end of the board, it's get stunned, a move to an adyacent clear space.

Timing of dice effects:
- To make easier, High Movement go first, in a tie, attackers go first.

CLANS
A few Ideas:

WEAPONS
Models with no close combat weapons likea spear, gain Range Attacks 2, but no additional dices.

WHO?: Yamazaru Chunin, Son Goku, Kitsune Madoushi, Ika Chunin, Mizuchi, Ijin Kunoichi, ijin Oni, Benkei, Goemon, Komuso, Miyamoto Mushasi, Momotaro, Samurai Sentries with Spears

Ranged Attacks per ranged attack weapons:
- Kitsune Poison Blowdart ---> 3 Squares, +1 Attack Dice, Stealthy, Rolled Spirit poisons target.
- Tora Rifle ---> 4 Squares, +2 Attack Dice, Spend one move action to reload.
- Ijin Crossbow ---> 4 Squares, + 2 Attack Dice, Spend one move action to reload.
- Ika/Yamazaru Bow 5 ---> 5, + 1 Attack Dice, Stealthy
- Tanchyo Long Bow---> 6 Squares, + 2 Attack Dice, Air may be chosen instead of Void or Earth Results.

Yamazaru Madoushi Flute/blowdart ---> 3 Squares, +1 Attack Dice, Stealthy, Rolled Earth slow target.

Elemental Shurinkens for clans?

DISCARDED SKILLS
- Chunin and Madoushi: Gain the initial discarded skill in shinobi range.

ONIS
- Yamazaru, Ika and ijin Oni: Gain an whirling attack where all the models in his Zone of Influence are affected, enemy or not, after that the Oni gets stunned.
- Tora, Kitsune and Tanchyo: Gain an Precission attack where all the enemy in his front Zone of Influence are affected, after that the Oni gets stunned.

Obviusly Koban must be improved if any changes succes.

Have more ideas but I dont make this post boring.

Be cruel if proceed, I don't have any problems with that.


June 26th, 2018, 2:17 am
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Mini-Boss
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Joined: July 3rd, 2014, 12:03 am
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Usagi wrote:
some comments on this stuff. Activation tokens could be eliminated if facing were eliminated (not pro or con on either side really, just commenting) because the turn 180 can be used then.


Agreed. But in my opinion, getting rid of the facing would be taking away something which is very thematic and integral to the game. The game is about ninjas, so backstabbing is a big deal. The only way to have backstabbing is to have facing.

Usagi wrote:
I do think the healing house could e changed. Making it important to have a deeper roster for a team is one of my goals. Ninjas being able to bounce back without consequence super fast is a problem for sure. I talked previously about an injury system that has worked fairly well for my group. That's more of a meta strategy thing when it comes to in-game though. it doesn't prevent ninjas from bouncing back fast, it just punishes them later for doing it too much. changing the in game could work too...possibly even somewhat related to my post-game injury system.


Yes, I did like your system. It sounds like it has promise.

Usagi wrote:
I agree that combat is pretty solid as is. I don't like the idea of swapping what symbol does what for every clan, though. That gets very confusing very fast and super puts off new people especially. My idea (without something specific to back it up yet) is to change what mastery skills do instead of changing everything about combat to accommodate masteries when it comes to combat percentages. It's a much simpler approach and can turn masteries int something (at least to me) more interesting.


Yes, it is a different result chart for every clan, but I do not feel that it is too complicated. I also feel that the reward of balance outweighs the minor added complication.

Usagi wrote:
I really have no problems with stealth. the only issues I have with large base models is they are a bit wonky when it comes to elevation when they are part way on and off things.


Easy fix - your are either on fully, or not at all!

Usagi wrote:
also a slight numerical wonkeyness on the number of spaces that count as "back arc" between when they face straight or diagonal. but that is literally next to nothing, and would go away if facing goes away anyways.


I think this just takes some getting used to.

Usagi wrote:
I also don't think chunin and such need to start with "extra XP". they already start significantly stronger than other models. that's basically extra levels you just don't customize, outside of choosing their skills.


I think you misunderstand me here. It is exactly because they are stronger than the others that they should start with more XP. Hoe did they earn those extra skills without experience? Especially the Chunin. The leader should be experienced. Also, by starting them at the higher level, makes it so that the already most powerful models do not get even more powerful so quickly as they are already at a higher level and therefore need more XP to level up again.

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June 26th, 2018, 2:27 am
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Bottle Cap

Joined: June 26th, 2018, 12:20 am
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hello world


June 26th, 2018, 2:42 am
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Ninja Corps
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Spazzfist wrote:
I think you misunderstand me here. It is exactly because they are stronger than the others that they should start with more XP. Hoe did they earn those extra skills without experience? Especially the Chunin. The leader should be experienced. Also, by starting them at the higher level, makes it so that the already most powerful models do not get even more powerful so quickly as they are already at a higher level and therefore need more XP to level up again.


ah, i see what you mean. Not really a fan of that. that basically just takes a centerpiece model (also, as said, the player avatar) and makes it more frustrating to level and caps it much lower. basically a two tier advancement system that ends with them being the same as anything else, roughly, at the end of the arc. That's highly unsatisfying and unmotivating.

on the flip-side, it's hard to have a "tentpole" in this game, for the most part. Even a "better" piece can be taken out with one roll, and it doesn't even have to be super lucky if you prep it enough. I think the restrictions chunin tend t be under in scenarios (thy cn't be chosen for a lot of stuff) balances out the increased power. THat's an element that is easy to carry over into re-done scenarios in the future as well.


June 26th, 2018, 3:18 am
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Mini-Boss
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Usagi wrote:
Spazzfist wrote:
I think you misunderstand me here. It is exactly because they are stronger than the others that they should start with more XP. How did they earn those extra skills without experience? Especially the Chunin. The leader should be experienced. Also, by starting them at the higher level, makes it so that the already most powerful models do not get even more powerful so quickly as they are already at a higher level and therefore need more XP to level up again.


ah, i see what you mean. Not really a fan of that. that basically just takes a centerpiece model (also, as said, the player avatar) and makes it more frustrating to level and caps it much lower. basically a two tier advancement system that ends with them being the same as anything else, roughly, at the end of the arc. That's highly unsatisfying and unmotivating.


I will concede on this point for the simple reason that you bring up the point that it will only take one hit to eliminate them.

Not really buying into this whole chunin as a "centrepiece" or "player avatar", however. It's the leader, yes. Toughest piece, yes. But an avatar? i wouldn't be pushing that point.

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June 26th, 2018, 1:03 pm
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Mini-Boss
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Spazzfist wrote:
Usagi wrote:
I agree that combat is pretty solid as is. I don't like the idea of swapping what symbol does what for every clan, though. That gets very confusing very fast and super puts off new people especially. My idea (without something specific to back it up yet) is to change what mastery skills do instead of changing everything about combat to accommodate masteries when it comes to combat percentages. It's a much simpler approach and can turn masteries int something (at least to me) more interesting.


Yes, it is a different result chart for every clan, but I do not feel that it is too complicated. I also feel that the reward of balance outweighs the minor added complication.


A different chart for every clan is overly complicated- the chart with six fixed results is simple enough that players can easily memorize it. If they're constantly switching gears from game to game, they may never be able to play without the chart (and may have a hard time if they switch from one clan to another). The symbols on the dice are already a little ambiguous, changing them to mean different things for your opponent and yourself is more than a little more complex.

If balance is all we want, then how about we simply change all of the mastery skills into a more straightforward reroll skill that isn't associated with an element? It can be available in the general pool (since every clan has one anyway). The wording on each ability is already pretty much the same- just replace every one with a general ability that allows for a reroll?

This will have the same result on balance as changing the chart for every clan, but with a great deal less complication.

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Last edited by odinsgrandson on June 26th, 2018, 3:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.



June 26th, 2018, 3:29 pm
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I've started a discussion on the game's deadliness, and I've started a thread to discuss a particular change that I propose:

http://community.sodapopminiatures.com/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=15930

In that thread, I've also copied a lot of the statistics that were worked out during the kickstarter- and it shows that the ninjas were much deadlier under playtest rules.


I would also love to see some changes to the house of healing- most especially, I'd like to see ninja stay out longer once they've been taken out.

Generally, I think the game needs to be deadlier. It has a lot of functions in it that seem to reward careful positioning, but they ultimately fail to actually do so.

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June 26th, 2018, 3:42 pm
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I really like the core system of this game and I think with a few tweeks it can be made excellent. I really like how things are going in the discussion. For me, the game needs to be a bit swifter and less drawn out/clunky and I agree with increasing the deadliness to make attacks have a bit more 'oomph', but I am not sure with adding +1 attack to all, as the strategy is all about trying to increase the number of your dice.

The talk of the influence zone is interesting such as only having a front influence zone (no back). I think the facing should be kept but perhaps 4 directions rather than diagonals, as mentioned, would speed things up. It would be good for someone to playtest no back influence zone, just front. But I like the fire skill to affect the whole influence zone of the attacker as they let out a blast of fire to stun all those in front and behind while stunning themself in the process.

I guess the original thought with the water skill is that the attacker is jumping back to avoid the defender but then the defender is following the attacker to where they jumped. In terms of the water skill I have always treated it like a 'pull' in contrast to the air's 'push'. Where the attacker is pulling the defender in a different direction, so perhaps it could be altered slightly to 'the attacker moves 3 spaces in any direction and the attacker places the defender anywhere in their front influence zone'. This would make the water ability sway slightly more in favour of the attacker, again adding to the deadliness.

So ideas for rules changes:

Water is 'the attacker moves 3 spaces in any direction and the attacker places the defender anywhere in their front influence zone'

Can move through back influence zone without dodging, only need to dodge out of back influence zone if stopped there. Still have to dodge moving through front influence zone (removes the slow down caused by dodging)

Failed dodging does not cause stun, just lose move action (again removes slow down)

All affinity tests use 4 dice, including dodging (yes I realise this can make some OP abilities but increases deadliness)

For the brawl scenario stuns are worth 1 point, injury worth 3 (not stuns caused to attacker by fire). If you injure a character who is already stunned just get points for stuns up to 3, e.g. if a model has one stun already you only get 2 points for an injury. (makes stuns more valuble increasing game time)


June 26th, 2018, 9:06 pm
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odinsgrandson wrote:
If balance is all we want, then how about we simply change all of the mastery skills into a more straightforward reroll skill that isn't associated with an element? It can be available in the general pool (since every clan has one anyway). The wording on each ability is already pretty much the same- just replace every one with a general ability that allows for a reroll?

This will have the same result on balance as changing the chart for every clan, but with a great deal less complication.


I can totally get behind what you are saying here, but do like the idea that the skill represents their attunement with one of the elements.

Is there any situation where somebody would NOT want to roll a Void? I suppose in an attack situation, perhaps. I am thinking that we could maybe reverse the wording of the skill as it stands to say that you can reroll any dice that DO show the element of mastery. So someone with Void Mastery, can reroll any dice which do have Void results. This makes it a whole lot less fearsome and would go a long way to balancing things.

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June 27th, 2018, 1:56 am
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Spazzfist wrote:
odinsgrandson wrote:
If balance is all we want, then how about we simply change all of the mastery skills into a more straightforward reroll skill that isn't associated with an element? It can be available in the general pool (since every clan has one anyway). The wording on each ability is already pretty much the same- just replace every one with a general ability that allows for a reroll?

This will have the same result on balance as changing the chart for every clan, but with a great deal less complication.


I can totally get behind what you are saying here, but do like the idea that the skill represents their attunement with one of the elements.

Is there any situation where somebody would NOT want to roll a Void? I suppose in an attack situation, perhaps. I am thinking that we could maybe reverse the wording of the skill as it stands to say that you can reroll any dice that DO show the element of mastery. So someone with Void Mastery, can reroll any dice which do have Void results. This makes it a whole lot less fearsome and would go a long way to balancing things.


I agree that the masteries should be element specific. I wouldn't be against a dramatic reworking of the even, making them not necessarily even involve reolling dice. Also, the situation in which you wouldn't want to roll void results is pretty obvious as being the opposite of when you do want to roll them, on defense. A void roll really only helps the attacker when rolling defense. Just like spirit mastery (in current form) is great for defense, but not attack.


June 27th, 2018, 2:09 am
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For an alternate take on Masteries not involving rerolls, had an idea once to make "buffed" versions of the dice results for a mdel that has its relevant Mastery:

-Void, add a Delay token to injured enemy
-Spirit, either only stunned or go straight to standby area (not into healing house)
-Earth, stun all 3 spaces opposite attacker
-Water, add a Slow token to defender
-Air, move 5 spaces

Never could come up with a Fire one....


June 28th, 2018, 10:39 pm
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I'd like to try the game out with 4 dice affinity tests. With three dice, it seems like everything fails a little too often.

Dr Cheesecake wrote:
I really like the core system of this game and I think with a few tweeks it can be made excellent. I really like how things are going in the discussion. For me, the game needs to be a bit swifter and less drawn out/clunky and I agree with increasing the deadliness to make attacks have a bit more 'oomph', but I am not sure with adding +1 attack to all, as the strategy is all about trying to increase the number of your dice.



I should clarify- I propose two (and a half) changes together:

1 a flat +1 to all attacks
2 defender wins with tied dice
2.5 change a couple wordings for things like Dauntless and Dirty Fighter to fit this new paradigm (Dirty Fighter triggers on equal dice, Dauntless grants bonus dice up to one fewer than the attacker).

The effect of these changes is added deadliness without making strategy less important or even significantly different since basically all ninjas get +1 die, but they need +1 die to 'win' a combat. The threshold system and balance remains in tact, ninjas are just better rewarded for good gameplay (ie, more likely to down their opponent).

I agree that the combat is mostly about getting enough dice to beat your opponent's defense scores, and this change will only give players more rewards for doing that. It does not make doing so any easier.

In my other thread, I have presented the Mathhammer side of this- it brings the deadliness of the game closer to the deadliness as it was playtested, but it keeps defense as a universally positive attribute.

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July 4th, 2018, 6:35 pm
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Things to change: the moon deck. And the moon phases. Highly thematic and not elegant at all. Totally random and diverse from useless to hugely powerful. Two different results on each card and complicated to get.
The whole thing is unwieldy at best. I'd like to see that change. Maybe buy cards beforehand or flip a few cards to have people bid on them? Maybe dump the whole deck? Flip three cards and they apply to all teams?

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July 9th, 2018, 9:14 pm
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