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 Help getting started :) 
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Bottle Cap
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Joined: January 15th, 2017, 6:00 pm
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Hi all!

Before anyone cautions me: yes I know the game is about to have a Beasts of War week and possibly Void Break expansion coming, and yes I know it's not hugely popular, and no, nobody I know plays it...

HOWEVER. I love the look and concept of the game and I enjoy painting minis and collecting at least 2 factions for mini games I like just to break out once in a while :) So I'm looking for jump into 2 small cadres of Relic Knights :)

Can anyone suggest how to get started?
My main issues are that...
1. I don't like ALL of the models. The Battle Boxes for the factions I like contain, IMO, the worst sculpts, while the best sculpts are not included in the battle boxes. Conversely, the best sculpted Battle Boxes are for factions that I have little interest in. Is it possible for me to purchase/build a pair of cadres without buying battle boxes for a reasonable price?

2. Aaaand it seems the only way to get the tokens/mats/etc needed to play are in the Battle Boxes? *sigh*


So. Unless someone has a bunch of tokens and esper decks they'd like to sell me, I suppose I HAVE to buy at least one Battle Box?

Can anybody help a poor noob out? :)


January 15th, 2017, 6:07 pm
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Ninja Corps
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You an get basic materials (decks/tokens) sold separately. mats aren't essential, really.

IT is also quite possible to build cadres without strarter boxes. the only requirement for a cadre to be legal is to have a leader and follow the faction rules (either all the same faction or follow the radiant cadre rules). So, you need one relic or questing knight (there will be things called avaars at some point as well, it looks like) as a leader, then you need to fill the team up with other models that amtch the leader's faction to whatever point total you are using.

The starters have some decent models, mechanically, sprinkled into them. But if you are going largely for models you think look good, and none of them look good, they don't do much. :P

But, without details on what you're interested in making more specifically. I can't get much more detailed than "yes, you can make teams without starters for reasonable prices" :P


January 15th, 2017, 10:43 pm
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Haha fair enough.

I found the tokens but I cant find the esper deck...

I just like the models that actually look anime-ish, and probably are the ones that are digitally sculpted. Candy, Cordelia, most of the Noh (but dislike the faction), most of Circuit (but again, not a huge faction fan), Calico, Purifiers, etc.

Not sure there's something specific I'm trying to make, just a pair (for now) of factions that kind of oppose each other story-wise, that have cool models, and that can be built 'balanced' (without one of my 'teams' having like, no ranged, for example).


January 16th, 2017, 1:19 am
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Mini-Boss
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Well, for balance, they're all pretty good, just some vastly different play styles. I'd suggest getting one of the radiant factions (Shattered Sword, Doctrine, or Cerci) and one void (Noh, Star Nebula, or Black Diamond). Or grab the current radiant and void Knights and mix and match the units you want (just keep in mind the build rules). Of course, none of the factions have any strong ties between them, so there are always reasons for any two to clash.

Gameplay-wise, Shattered Sword or Doctrine vs Corsairs or Black Diamond will probably be the most balance option, Cerci and Noh are more finesse factions - Cerci is all about speed and can be fragile in combat, and while the Noh look like bruisers, they actually can achieve more through clever use of all the forced movement they have available.

If you want advice on specific lists, I'm sure you'll get more than a couple of opinions/viewpoints between here and the FB group.


January 16th, 2017, 6:22 pm
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I would agree that one of the best ways to pick and choose models you like for faction would be to play prismatic knight teams. You already said you like th candy model (there are a few, but I'm assuming you mean the knight) and Cordelia. Though, Cordelia is one of the most OP models in the game, by far XD. prismatic rules let you use uniques from all three of their related faction (but no minions). This is good for picking and choosing cool models across factions. However, as things stand now (though it's getting better, and will get more better with time) void faction teams are a little more limited than radiant.


January 16th, 2017, 8:57 pm
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Bottle Cap
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Thanks Usagi :)

I think what I'm going to get is this: does this look reasonable?

Shattered Sword-
Sebastian Cross (RK)
Paragons (x2)
Cordelia

Cerci Circuit -
Princess Malya (RK)
Pacer
Faust's Devils (x3)

I think that creates a sorta-semi-balanced pair of small forces, right? :)


January 17th, 2017, 12:24 am
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Location: France, Paris
Shattered Sword-
Sebastian Cross (RK)
Paragons (x2)
Cordelia

seem to be very poor because the big combos not work very weel with few unit. Sebastian is very slow for this format (50point)



Cerci Circuit -
Princess Malya (RK)
Pacer
Faust's Devils (x3)

most powerful, i not like pacer unit... but this is personnal..... don't try to kill, just make scenarios.

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January 17th, 2017, 1:14 pm
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Thanks Le Gurhal!

I actually changed my mind a bit.
I really like Sebastian...he's my favorite Relic Knight besides Candy. Likewise the Paragons are really the only Shattered Sword minions that I like. What would you suggest I take with them to make a decent (small) force?



I'm also going to change the other force to be:
Candy and Cola (RK)
Rin Farrah
Betty
Lug

Does that look better?
Thanks!


January 17th, 2017, 7:04 pm
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stargorger wrote:
Thanks Usagi :)

I think what I'm going to get is this: does this look reasonable?

Shattered Sword-
Sebastian Cross (RK)
Paragons (x2)
Cordelia

Cerci Circuit -
Princess Malya (RK)
Pacer
Faust's Devils (x3)

I think that creates a sorta-semi-balanced pair of small forces, right? :)


Those are pretty "cool looking" teams. Sebastian and Malya are both mechanically strong and visually snazzy knights. The paragons are a so-so choice. they are very cool looking with the in-theme power armor look, but they are also kind of hard to use and slow (shattered sword in general is a slower faction though). I would suggest, from a mechanical standpoint, swapping out paragons for swordsworn. Swordsworn are probably the strongest "generic minion" squad in the game. They are easy to use, have high survivability, all that. I'm not comparing point costs, as I Don't remember the exact costs off hand, though, so that may be a problem. The mechanical strength of the Sebastian team will defiantly lie with Cordelia though. As I said, she's one of the most OP models in the game, and she covers lots of the shattered sword weakness with her being fast and maneuverable (with fly).

I'm not super familiar with Faust's Devils, on the Malya team. I haven't been able to get a set of them yet for myself. The pacer is a solid unit, but is 100% support (it has no directly offensive abilities at all) and isn't very defensive either. But it is very fast and has very good support abilities. Malya is, arguably, one of the strongest knights out there, as well. So much of the game would likely be resting on her shoulders (depending on the scenarios, ultimately).

As for balance between the two, I can't say exactly due to my unfamiliarity with the Devils. Malya's team will be much faster than Sebastian's, which may give that team the edge in many scenarios. But, if Malya's team gets saddled with a combat based scenario, Sebastian's team will have a solid advantage there as they are one of the most survivable factions going up against one of the most pillow fisted factions.


January 17th, 2017, 9:16 pm
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Thank you for the solid analysis Usagi!

I've decided against Malya after seeing her scale comparison. I'd like to stick with well-scaled/well-sculpted models as much as I can. For that end I'm switching her out for Candy and making it a Radiant cadre.

So, that in turn means no Pacer or Faust's Devils (at least atm...cus I think the models are awesome).
I haven't bought the paragons yet...what I have is Sebastian + Cordelia and Candy + Betty/Lug.

You guys have any suggestions for what to fill out these forces with?

Sebastian's force I kinda intend to make a basic Shattered Sword army out of eventually. And the Paragons are one of my favorite Shattered Sword units for look...I actually love the look of the Swordsworn, but they're horribly under-scaled, right? So, dang...I'll wait to see if they do a resculpt. The ones that I can see that look cool and are in-scale are the Star Lancer, Aspirant, and Navarre (Jeanne is in-scale but on closer inspection I hate her face).

Then trying to figure out what to fill-out the Radiant cadre with for now... (eventually turning into a Cerci force)... I was thinking Rin Farrah? I like her model and she's a unique...


January 17th, 2017, 10:17 pm
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Mini-Boss
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I would suggest getting enough to play a 50 point game. The game is a little more balanced at 50 v 35, and you'd need to do 50 to fit in the units you listed:

Relic Knight Cross is 20pts, Cordelia is 13, 2 paragons are 9 (or one for 6, max squad size is 2), a squad of 5 swordsworn is 7pts, leaving you with 1 or for a boost. Alternatively, the star lancer is 10 points. The paragons aren't exactly slow, it's just that their movement is front loaded.

Relic Knight Malya is 18, Pacer is 6, I don't have the cost for faust's available, but I remember it is variable (you can pay extra for an upgrade), but as long as it's under 11 it would work for a 35pt team. To expand to 50, I might recommend an upgraded Rhouss Fixer for 11. Depending on the cost of the devils, this leaves you with some points for boosts and/or another cheap unit.

The Fixer is a radiant minion and has an AoE heal as well as a pretty nice ranged attack. By default his heal is a repair, and the upgrade lets him target any unit. So for 9 points he would be a good match for the paladins as well (though he does look a little out of place, thematically...)

Edit: got post jumped, in the case of a radiant force, I'd certainly look at the Fixer. It'd also be worth considering the darkspace units, as they bring some good variety. Fiametta from the doctrine is solid, and the prefects have a unique rule allowing them to break squad cohesion (Dan D Starship has this rule as well).


January 18th, 2017, 1:41 am
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Haha. Sorry for the post jump: I'm still in 'approval limbo'. >.<

I am indeed looking to start with 50 point lists.

Are number of models something to consider?

IE, if both of my 50 point lists only have 4-5 models...is that like, bad in some way?

Watching the demo game on Beasts of War, apparently minion squads have to stick together, can only get 1 objective token between them, and...seems like they might as well be a single model? What is the benefit (if any) to having more units?


January 18th, 2017, 3:54 am
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One of my favorite radiant cadres I call a pinata cadre, because it's full of candy. :P You can put knight candy with unique candy and cosplay/darkspace candy. I think that comes out to around 35 points (if memory serves) so there's room to play with that. It's not powerful or anything, but it's fun thematically. :P

As for squads, they do have advantages over single models. They can boost their own attacks by having multiple models in a squad having LOS to the target, damage to them can be mitigated in the form of some models just not being in the "danger zone" of an attack, and thus being impossible to kill regardless of the attack outcome. they can "chain" (which is risky, but can work) by stretching themselves out as a unit between an objective and a goal making it possible to grab an objective and transport it long distances very quickly because any model in the unit is considered to carry a given objective once it's picked up. But, they do have disadvantages like needing to maintain cohesion and being individually fragile. Some units have "act as one" like suspect 7 and the prefects. This lets all the models within the squad basically act on their own as individuals, with no need to maintain cohesion. This can be extremely powerful for running objectives. It's also good for buffs because if any model in a unit is in an AOE buff, all models in the unit are considered to have that buff. So, there is give and take with squads over individual model units and they have to be considered case by case. But there isn't really an inherent quality that makes one unit type better than the other on principal.

The number of models in a cadre is not super important. With recent rule revisions if a cadre's units falls below the number of units in the line up on the dashboard, you have to start inserting placeholders into your lineup. But, as long as you have equal to or more units than spaces, that doesn't happen. More units basically gives more variety at the cost of higher point unit concentration.


January 18th, 2017, 11:46 am
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Thanks Usagi :)

Haha, actually I have been looking for Candy Heart but I can't find her :( Otherwise I'd snatch her up in an instant!

That's good to know about squads. I haven't read through the entire rulebook yet, so probably either missed that part or haven't gotten that far.

Re: cadre number of models: my main thought is that with Prismatic cadres, the number of available Uniques is actually rather small (Radiant vs Void). And then there's which of those are actually good to consider.

Which would you use: Faust, or Rin Farrah to go along with Candy? :)


January 18th, 2017, 5:39 pm
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Faust is another one i have no experience with and can't recall exactly what he's like off hand. Rin is solid though. Good at softening hard targets and defending specific areas if I'm properly recalling her abilities. Just have to keep her out of the enemies sights.


January 18th, 2017, 7:40 pm
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Rin is ranged, while Faust is primarily melee; I think a lot of the difference comes down to playstyle. Rin also has a killzone AoE that damages any enemy entering it as long as she has LoS, which is nice if you are able to park her near a ledge (her stealth helps keep her safe) . Then you can focus on activating other units while she maintains a threat.

While the number of options for uniques on the void side is smaller, they do still have strong options: Amelial and Moffet are very maneuverable, all of their darkspace options are pretty good, Squall is fun, but I have a feeling her sculpt will cause you to pass. The biggest detriment to a void cadre IMO is that Harbonath is kind of lackluster...

As for number of units, as Usagi said: as long as you can fill the queue, you don't have to worry about placeholder actions. For a 50 point game, that means 3 units.

For Candy Heart, you can get her stat card (and the other initial LE mini's) in a pack of you want to proxy her... (given your emphasis on the models, I don't think that's appealing to you, but I do like reminding others that might be reading this that they can.) I have seen a decent homemade proxy of the soda cannon version using another range's model...


January 18th, 2017, 8:25 pm
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Thanks guys :)

I decided to go with Faust. I like his model, I like Faust's Devils, and I think that's how I'm gonna expand into Cerci. So Rin gets a hold for now. I'm also interested to wait and see what comes out for (and if) the new kickstarter/expansion. :)


January 18th, 2017, 9:32 pm
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stargorger wrote:
Thanks guys :)

I decided to go with Faust. I like his model, I like Faust's Devils, and I think that's how I'm gonna expand into Cerci. So Rin gets a hold for now. I'm also interested to wait and see what comes out for (and if) the new kickstarter/expansion. :)


I am looking forward to the kickstarter as well.

as a side note (unless they change something in the rules update) melee is a bit tricky to use compared to ranged and psychic due to the base to base requirement vs. the overall mobility of models in the game. Faust probably isn't bad for melee (going under the presumption that he's Cerci, so he's probably fairly fast). Certain models, like Austrican, though, are essentially totally useless as they are slow and melee only. That's actually one of the things I hope they address most, the problems with melee (which aren't just limited to what i mentioned above :P).


January 18th, 2017, 10:43 pm
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Thanks again Usagi :) (love your name btw :) do you know any Japanese perchance? Always looking for other people to speak it with :D

Hmm. I have heard that melee is not the best/harder to use...but I'm one of those 'if it's ignored by the player base, I must find a way to make it work' people, haha. Plus, I feel like, it's an anime-style game with big speedy mechs flying around. Gotta have some CC right? :D

As to speed...I'm hoping more that Faust will pair well with his minions, and that I can then expand to Hell's Belles and such. I really love Malya as a concept but I've seen her shrimpy shrimpy model and it annoys me so much (the scale diff, not the sculpt), that I just can't bring myself to buy it. So I'm really hoping that beyond new units/rules, this kickstarter and/or expansion also comes with some resculpts >.<


January 19th, 2017, 12:27 am
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Faust is only a hair faster than most other humans, and his advantage is in the follow-up (6-5). He doesn't have charge, but does have feint for good disengages (which, I guess is moot if you can't engage...). He does have a psychic attack with compel, which will help you set up other attacks. And of course, keeping your melee fighters near opponent's objectives helps.


January 20th, 2017, 2:19 am
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