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 Beta 2.0: Deputize allows triple activations every turn? 
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Bottle Cap
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Joined: September 14th, 2012, 3:26 pm
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Deputize says that Bang Bang can designate another hero to go into the minion slot after Bang Bang's activation. The deputized hero will gain an exhaustion token, just like a minion would.

Is it the intention that the deputized hero can then put a minion into the minion slot after its activation? There's nothing in the Deputize rule that says that can't happen.

If the deputized hero can activate a minion then this leads to an infinite loop of triple activations.

Let's assume it's a 35 point game with Bang Bang [B], Miss Kaylee [K], Enforcers [E] and Mr Milky [M].

The two-slot ready queue is [B], [K] and the two minions [E] and [M] are in the idle pile. No-one has an exhaustion token [*].

When [B] activates it puts [K] in the minion slot, according to the Deputize rule. During clean-up, if there had been any exhaustion tokens on units in the idle pile then they would be removed. [B] goes into the idle pile with no token.

When [K] activates it puts [E] into the minion slot, according to p26 of the Beta 2.0 rules, "When a hero is moved into the active slot...". During clean-up, exhaustion tokens would be removed if there were any and [K] then goes to the idle pile with an exhaustion token [K*].

When [E] activates nothing goes in the minion slot. During clean-up the exhaustion token is removed from [K*] in the idle pile and [E] goes to the idle pile with an exhaustion token [E*]. Because there is nothing in the minion slot, this completes the turn and the ready queue is reset.

The idle pile is now [B], [K], [E*] and [M] and the ready queue is empty, so it can be reset to [B], [K], just as it was at the beginning of this example. When [B] has activated again and reaches clean-up then the exhaustion token on [E*] will be removed, which means it will be available when [K] moves into the active slot two steps later (Beta 2.0, p27).

Therefore every turn the player can activate [B], [K] and either [E] or [M]. It makes the text in the Deputize rule about putting an exhaustion token on the deputized hero seem to be irrelevant: if the deputized hero can put a unit into the minion slot then it will lose its exhaustion token before the ready queue is reset.

Working as intended?


March 2nd, 2017, 12:13 pm
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Bottle Cap
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Joined: March 2nd, 2017, 4:11 am
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I honestly think it is supposed to work more like how Mr milky activates where you can choose him to work as either a "hero" or a minion. Therefore for the point when the hero would go into the active area from the minion zone, like Mr milky you would not then bring someone else in the minion zone with them. That does though also suggests you don't draw up to your hand size and such since this hero activates as a minion activation, so your stuck with what hand you had with bang bang unless you attack.

It's my thoughts anyways, from a fairness thing and not breaking the game that's how I think it is meant to work. Maybe saying in the rule more concretely that it's being treated as a minion activation would help clear up the wording?


March 3rd, 2017, 9:04 pm
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Denizen
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Joined: September 9th, 2012, 1:25 am
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Well I haven't played it that way, but reading over the rules that seems to be a legal interpretation of Deputise. That definitely makes it a lot more powerful, especially for objective running.

I expect that isn't working as intended, but I recommend playing some games that way and reporting them. It will give Dave and a Justin useful feedback in general, while the wording on Bang Bang is clarified ne way or another.

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March 4th, 2017, 10:32 am
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Ninja Corps
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Joined: May 26th, 2012, 6:17 pm
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Isn't there only one minion slot? And don't the basic rules allow only one hero activation followed by one minion activation if there is a "minion" in the minion slot?

So basically only one minion (in this case hero) can activate since they are occupying the minion slot. Of course while putting a hero in the minion slot won't allow them to redraw, they do have melee, ranged, and psi stats so they will get to draw them if they make an offensive action, plus they have more actions to chose from.

-ape2020

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March 4th, 2017, 11:47 am
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Denizen
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Joined: August 8th, 2012, 2:39 am
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I agree with ape2020.

Looking at the order of activation we get our answer:

Beginning the Turn, 2a is where Heroes and minions are placed into their respective slots from the ready position or idle pile.

As the player moves through the activation and game steps, they activate Bang-Bang, and move into the clean-up phase, working towards step 4d. Then the player is sent back to step 2b, activating their Deputized Hero, and then move into the clean phase again.

Crucially, because they are explicitly sent back to step 2b, they cannot add another after the Deputized Hero to get a third activation in a row.

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March 4th, 2017, 2:31 pm
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Denizen
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You are correct for the Order of Activation summary chart, however the actual rules steps are not so clear. Which again suports a test and report situation.

As it stands Bang Bang has less bang for her buck in her Cadre ability than Tahariel (because never having to worry about drawing a Void card is huge), so this would fix that. Problem is, it's probably way too far in the other direction.

So I plan to try this interpretation tomorrow night and give the feedback and report the question. :)

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March 5th, 2017, 4:05 am
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Denizen
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I won't disagree that the rule is underwhelming as a cadre ability by a long shot (I would have thought some kind of bounty mechanic would be worth consideration), but I don't think that it would trump the order of activation chart. The way I see it, the order of activation chart represents the actual rules, while the descriptions in the rule book are descriptors for the rules, so if one has to take precedence I would side with the order chart, which I believe is what the rules blokes did during first edition to solve many a rules quandary.

So I think it is always worth asking what the intention of a rule is, especially in beta to clarify one way or the other what they want, and if there is a need to edit the order of activation chart, or clarify the rule book section.

I can definitely see where one or the other needs to change in this regard though, as there is some confusion when comparing the rule book to the char.

Beginning the Turn, Page 26 Paragraph 2 states:

When a hero is moved in to the active slot, any minion from the hero’s cadre, without an exhaustion counter, may be placed in the minion slot.

This goes against the chart, and even though it is such a bizarre corner case, it should be addressed.

For example, this could be clarified by rewording that section as:

When a hero is moved in to the active slot [from the ready queue], any minion from the hero’s cadre, without an exhaustion counter, may be placed in the minion slot.

And if the intention was to allow a third activation, it could be re-worded as:

Deputize: Before setup begins choose a hero unit in your cadre. The chosen unit may be put into the minion slot when Bang Bang is moved into the active slot just like a minion, [as if it were placed from the ready queue]. The chosen hero unit will get an exhaustion token when leaving the active slot and can’t be put into the ready queue or minion slot as long as it has an exhaustion token.

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March 6th, 2017, 2:34 am
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Denizen
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Yup.

Except the chart is a summary and the complete rules should take precedent. Fortunately these are "rules in progress" so the chart or rules can be adjusted to match intent. (I remember discussions about this with Dave last year when 1.5 was released, sometimes the rules changed, sometimes the chart, sometimes both...)

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March 6th, 2017, 11:49 am
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