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 Rules Question 
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Bottle Cap
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Joined: September 6th, 2012, 4:43 am
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My friends and I picked this up at PAX but are confused by a piece of the rules. We quickly find ourselves at 1 or 0 card hands and as we keep drawing 1 card and discarding a card we are unable to make any captures until a noble capture happens to be set up.

Was this intentional or are we doing something incorrectly?


September 6th, 2012, 4:56 am
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Minion
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Hmm. I noticed a similar comment on some other forum, about how running out of cards basically leaves the players out of the action. As I recall, the recommendation there was to "pace yourself" and not make every capture you can, so that the cards last longer. No idea whether that's the official intent, though.

(Given Soda Pop's past track record with communicating rules, I wouldn't really be surprised if this one needs some errata.)


September 6th, 2012, 11:10 am
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This blog post just showed up on my radar. As far as I can tell, it's the first proper discussion of how the mechanics play out since the game's been released into the wild.

The writer's stance is that gaining cards from the field is far too easy, and it's not exactly his sole complaint.


September 7th, 2012, 10:19 pm
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The Yann Waters wrote:
This blog post just showed up on my radar. As far as I can tell, it's the first proper discussion of how the mechanics play out since the game's been released into the wild.

The writer's stance is that gaining cards from the field is far too easy, and it's not exactly his sole complaint.


Interesting. It sucks that the game has only been releases at PAX and isn't due out for a little longer for everyone else. I feel like once there's more feedback we can see what (if anything) is wrong and discuss how to fix it.

Edit: Just to clarify, I'm not trying to be all fanboy Soda Pop defense force. It's quite possible that his complaints are legit, but I feel like we wont know 100% until the main release and more people have at it.


September 7th, 2012, 10:29 pm
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Exeltus wrote:
I feel like once there's more feedback we can see what (if anything) is wrong and discuss how to fix it.

I know the feeling, after trying to piece together a reasonable impression of the game from every little scrap of description out there: there's been precious little information to work with. Come to think of it, I also wonder whether the promo cards might help to bring in more variety to the play, as the blogger listed the lack thereof as another shortcoming.


September 7th, 2012, 11:04 pm
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Hey, guys! The friend who owned Tentacle Bento pointed out to me that you all were talking about what I wrote! That brought me here, and I wanted to express how flattered I am that you've read my what I had to say about the game.

I totally understand the desire to hear more feedback regarding the game. After all, my opinion could be quite rogue to what the general consensus would be.

So, to recap how I felt about the game:

Not enough Character cards. Need more cards and a variance in the effects. For example, all three Character cards only negatively affect opponents. Where are the Characters that would benefit you instead of hurt others?

All the Girls are too bland. They do nothing except be one of Sexy, Cute, Smart, or Sporty. It would be nice if the Girls had effects, like, "When you capture this girl, draw a card." and so on.

Sloppy Captures don't do enough for you in the game for you to encourage doing them. You always want to go for Noble Captures because it's SO GOOD to do so. Especially when you pick up a ton of cards from the Field. So either lessen this card advantage part of the game or increase the awesomeness of doing Sloppy Captures.

On that note of picking up cards from the Field: Sometimes, a player could experience very little cards coming their way. When a player is down to 0 or 1 cards, it can get pretty miserable. If you need to form a match with a Capture, Girl, and Location card, and you have no cards in your hand; then the gameplay for you becomes hoping that the Field fills up with two out of your three needed matches to the one card you randomly draw.

Things like letting players draw back up to five or seven cards at the start of each turn or preventing players from picking up a ton of cards from the Field would help to improve this game. Being able to catch up in a game is important and keeps it fun for all players as someone in the lead can be overturned.

Hope that helps!

Cheers,

Bradley


September 7th, 2012, 11:45 pm
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Minion
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Aha, thanks for the rundown.

bradleyrose wrote:
Not enough Character cards. Need more cards and a variance in the effects. For example, all three Character cards only negatively affect opponents. Where are the Characters that would benefit you instead of hurt others?

Actually, this is something I happened to notice a couple of days ago elsewhere on the site, and wondered about.

(The more I picture the drawing and the discarding, the more it seems to me that drawing, say, two or three cards at the beginning of the turn and then discarding down to hand size at the end might work out better in practice.)


September 7th, 2012, 11:53 pm
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The Yann Waters wrote:
Aha, thanks for the rundown.

Actually, this is something I happened to notice a couple of days ago elsewhere on the site, and wondered about.

(The more I picture the drawing and the discarding, the more it seems to me that drawing, say, two or three cards at the beginning of the turn and then discarding down to hand size at the end might work out better in practice.)


Yeah, I noticed a few of those, too. Must be part of some of the backer rewards. Either way, another Character card is good, and a positive-for-you effect is even better. This card in a deck improves it, even if ever-so-slightly.

The suggestion you mentioned would indeed be an improvement over how the game currently works. It might not be the best solution since there are a multitude of different things you can try out. And then, from there, you'd have to playtest to finetune and see what works and what doesn't.


September 8th, 2012, 1:30 am
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bradleyrose wrote:
Must be part of some of the backer rewards.

That would be the pack of holofoil promo cards, thrown in as part of the rewards for any pledge of $25 ("Grabby Hands") or above. Since the basic game came for $20, I doubt that many backers neglected to pay the little bit of extra: I'd have no use for the reward miniatures, for instance, but the potential gameplay value of the cards was obviously worth a few more euros. Curiously, Hillary featured prominently in Soda Pop's Facebook announcement that they'd received an early shipment for the game for PAX.

The promo pack's linked to the limited $500 pledge level ("All-Star"), which incorporated "yourself or your wife/girlfriend" as a student in the setting. I don't remember if the funding project kept precisely the same character slots when it moved to Soda Pop's own site, but originally at Kickstarter those included (in addition to an All-Star for each suit) Exchange Student, Headmaster's Staff, Science Club, and Sports Enthusiast.

(Also, one of the preview sketches shows a certain "Sgt. D. Wulf", and apparently Candy & Cola, the company mascots, may be somewhere in there as well.)

bradleyrose wrote:
The suggestion you mentioned would indeed be an improvement over how the game currently works. It might not be the best solution since there are a multitude of different things you can try out. And then, from there, you'd have to playtest to finetune and see what works and what doesn't.

True. It's rather hard to say anything conclusive before the game eventually arrives and has been played by RAW a few times (with and without the promo cards).


September 8th, 2012, 12:14 pm
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Once you are at zero cards you may draw back up to 7 cards on your next turn.

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September 25th, 2012, 9:39 pm
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SPM_Deke wrote:
Once you are at zero cards you may draw back up to 7 cards on your next turn.

Aha, that should definitely help with the hand bleeding dry of cards. Is it errata or just something that folks have overlooked in the rules?


September 26th, 2012, 9:36 am
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The Yann Waters wrote:
SPM_Deke wrote:
Once you are at zero cards you may draw back up to 7 cards on your next turn.

Aha, that should definitely help with the hand bleeding dry of cards. Is it errata or just something that folks have overlooked in the rules?


I would call it a "typo" :)

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September 27th, 2012, 7:55 am
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The Yann Waters wrote:
SPM_Deke wrote:
Once you are at zero cards you may draw back up to 7 cards on your next turn.

Aha, that should definitely help with the hand bleeding dry of cards. Is it errata or just something that folks have overlooked in the rules?


This is definitely not a case of me overlooking the rules. At least, the rules in the Tentacle Bento products sold at PAX. To be sure, I reread the rules with scrutiny to look for this clause. It's not there at all.

So this may be errata that would be in the rules of the Tentacle Bento games being sent in the mail.

However, this errata only solves the problem of having zero cards at the start of your turn. Having one card at the start of your turn is ALSO a sucky situation, and you'll always end up with having just one card at the end of your turn for as long as you're still trying to look for a match. You'd have to topdeck the right type of card that does not match the one in your hand or whatever ones you're relying upon in the field.

I'd say that there should be an errata that helps both the players that start with 0 cards AND 1 card at the start of their turn.


October 9th, 2012, 12:31 am
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I got my copy earlier and checked myself, no mention of drawing a new hand once you run out.

On the topic of rule changes, I've thought of a few other ones I'd probably add to the game:

-Drawing: The game relies on going through the deck as an eventual "end condition", but being able to draw from the discard pile lessens this. Also, if you have a small hand, you're stuck just drawing the top card until you can get a noble capture from the discards. So, my idea: At the start of your turn, if you have 2 or less cards in hand, draw until you have 3; otherwise, draw one card. You may then draw cards from the discard pile as normal, with the exception that even if you only take the top card, you must use it in a noble capture. This causes the game to continue towards an end, even if people are just drawing from the discard pile.

-Noble capture from discards: This is something that can give players a huge advantage, with almost no penalty; simply the first person to have the right cards to finish a noble capture gets a huge bonus. This is actually similar to a variation of rummy I've played before; the difference is that in that game, there's a risk involved; namely, at the end of each hand, you lose points based on how many cards are left in your hand. I think a mechanic like this would work well here, so: Each turn, you may only make one capture, and may add one girl to a noble capture that doesn't already have 3 girls. At the end of the game, each girl still in your hand helps one of your captured girls escape; discard one captured girl for each girl in your hand. For each all-star girl in your hand, the discarded girl must also be an all-star if possible. This means that taking a large hand from the discards near the end of the game is a pretty significant risk, and even during the early to mid game it can be a difficult decision.

Edit: Heh, I just re-read the manual and it turns out there already is a rule for losing points if you have girls in your hand. Still, the point is to make it more of a threat if you have a large hand, and by limiting you to one capture per turn and speeding up how fast players go through the deck (drawing at least one card per turn and drawing more if you run low on cards), getting a big hand early may help, but it also may come back and bite you.


October 18th, 2012, 7:19 am
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SPM_Deke wrote:
Once you are at zero cards you may draw back up to 7 cards on your next turn.


Okay, played four games today with this rule, and a couple of questions came up:
1. Does this happen before the normal draw for that turn, or does it replace the normal draw? Played it both ways, not sure which is better/correct.
2. How do you interact with events drawn this way? We treated them just like the starting hands and tossed them back into the deck. Is this right?

And a couple of other questions:
3. Do cards that affect students in captures also affect all-stars? Been playing it as if they do, but not 100% sure.
4. Some cards take students out of captures without bouncing back the location and capture as well. Is this intentional, or a typo?


October 21st, 2012, 3:32 am
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We have been playing with the assumption that "All-Stars are Students, but not all Students are All-Stars". It seems to work okay, with the risk of Candy&Cola trashing an All-Star balanced roughly against the efficiency of regular Students (For some reason we haven't had much luck drawing Captures- I need to count the deck, not sure if it's a shuffling thing, or if the game just needs more of them).

I read the abilities that leave empty Captures rather like having an empty server in Netrunner- the setup is there, so you just need to "Room For One More" some girls into it. That would prevent you from dropping an All-Star in there, which stays in line with how difficult the All-Stars seem to be designed to be.


October 22nd, 2012, 3:38 pm
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Conspyre wrote:
We have been playing with the assumption that "All-Stars are Students, but not all Students are All-Stars". It seems to work okay, with the risk of Candy&Cola trashing an All-Star balanced roughly against the efficiency of regular Students (For some reason we haven't had much luck drawing Captures- I need to count the deck, not sure if it's a shuffling thing, or if the game just needs more of them).

I read the abilities that leave empty Captures rather like having an empty server in Netrunner- the setup is there, so you just need to "Room For One More" some girls into it. That would prevent you from dropping an All-Star in there, which stays in line with how difficult the All-Stars seem to be designed to be.


That's how we've been playing it, and it's worked out well so far. Also, as far as the distribution goes, with the promo pack, there's 7 captures and 7 locations of each suit, and 11, 12, 13, and 14 students for each suite (sporty has the least, then I wanna say it goes sexy, smart, and cute). In addition, each suit has 2 all-stars and then the 1 universal, so the proportions may seem a little low.

Also, yesterday we ran into an answer for #1. By having the hand-refill replace the draw (and not playing with promos) we had a situation where 3 out of four people had no cards and the only three cards in the deck were Candy & Cola and two events. So the game technically never ended (we just declared a winner).


October 22nd, 2012, 8:07 pm
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While this wouldn't solve the problem of noble capture being so much better than sloppy capture, a simple way to combat the "0-1 card" problem is to change the discard turn to the following (bold added to put emphasis on the changes :

"4. Discard

Unless you have 3 or less cards in your hand, you must place a card from your hand face up on top of the field pile to complete your turn. In addition, if you have more than 7 cards in your hand, you must discard cards into the field pile until you have 7 cards. Once you have discarded your turn is over and you may not play any cards until it is your turn again."


While this may slow down individual turns, it will speed up the game as a whole since there will be more cards for in the field for each player during the draw phase. What does everyone think?


October 23rd, 2012, 12:27 am
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I played a 2 player game just now and a few things seem off for two people. I'm not sure how many you guys played with but there are some some problems.

General Rules:
1: When "removing" a card or "rescuing" from a capture pile. Who makes the decision who is removed?
2: There mores than 4 events now. Do I play till the fourth or till all of them are played? We played till four of them.
3: During the game, there is no penalty/limit for picking up from the field. What should we do when it comes to pulling from the field?

Specific Cards:
1: Sporty _ Mylphee: "Place all girl cards on target opponents capture pile to the field, return snatch and location cards to owners hand"
--- We took this as return all captured girls and lose my 49 points. He ultimately won because of it. We played it as it sounded but we both agreed it was OP even though he was snickering as he said that.

2: Smart _ Fin: "Select Player to skip their next turn"
--- Easy to abuse if only two players. There's no risk, in our game, he placed down an all star and picked it right back up and made 2 noble captures.

3: Tako Tako & Custodian:
--- Separately they are awesome but together they cause the person who is controlled by them to be trapped. Tako Tako would be passed around between us though most of the time I was stuck with him because my friend always had a back up noble capture so it was impossible to lose the custodian.

4: Custodian:
--- I was controlled by the custodian. My friend rescued the students that he was controlling. What happens to the custodian? He got really pissed when I told him that the one he rescued didn't have the all star. And I moved the custodian to the next one which didn't have an all star but he made sure it did.

5: Various Cards:
--- Some effects were nullified because we were playing with two people. But not like we cared :D

Just a few things I noticed. The official rules had a few holes in them. But otherwise we had a lot of fun and ended up having a good time.


October 23rd, 2012, 11:46 pm
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