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 My problem with tentacle bento protests 
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Denizen
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No doubt many of you reading this have seen the thread about people's problems with tentacle bento this isn't post to insight vitriol among those that are against the game they are entitled to their views and I would have it no other way. This is a post to bring to light some observations and concerns of my own about points they have raised that I feel are somewhat off topic in that paticular thread.

I'm not looking to take a moral stand point with this message, this message I hope will be seen on merit for it's fiscal points; morals will be spoken off there is no avoiding that it is at the core of the situation. I ask politely if comments/replies can be maintained as on topic as possible rather than spiraling off into the concerns of morality please and thank you.

The main body of this is in regards to a male alternative to the tentacle bento game as I previously said in the other thread I like many others are for this it is a great Idea; It encompasses another genre of anime/manga that hasn't already been covered by soda pop or for that matter in many other forms in the gaming world as a whole and fans of this style have just as much right to be catered for as any other genre.

I'm under the belief that there could be issues with it being introduced as a stand alone alternative to tentacle bento that could also be intergrated into the core release as an expansion as players choose. Morally this is great, fiscally i'm not so sure it is a sound idea for Soda pop as a business. It is already clear that the subject matter of tentacle bento is niche at best many have objections and will choose not to play it, the same would be said of an all male expansion to this it is effectively a niche in a niche that will narrow an already narrow audience. There are many that would welcome this with open arms that have already bought the game and maybe sway a few others that were on the edge to buy it to but then those that appreciate the yaoi style may still not appreciate tentacles.

Add to that the suggestion that the wording and posing on the cards should mirror the female one you will likely put off some of the buyers of the core set from the expansion it is of course their choice to decide whether they are happy with buying a game that calls boys cute and sexy and what if anything that says about them. It could be addressed that calling them different names would maybe sway more of those people over to support such a new product but by doing so you put off others, this is the proverbial double edged sword of morality, swaying back and forth like the sword of damocles waiting to drop on the guys at Sodapop because at the end of the day this is their business and whichever way they go with the game will ultimately have more effect on them and their business than anyone of us individually or collectively.

This has already been shown with the kickstarter/kotaku/insert credit situation; how wording and marketing is really a cruel mistress with insert credit's follow up interview with Soda pop's John. It was the focus that the wording can come across as interpreted in different ways and they have chosen to see it in a negative aspect. It's also funny how they go off their stand point that the game shouldn't exist in the closing piece of their arguement to call Soda pop chicken for not calling it a tentacle rape game, that if they are going to do it they should own it, like the guys in modern warfare 2 with allowing innocents to be shot in the airport level,this to me reads like they are saying the game should exist but albeit more explicit and depict full blown tentacle rape, just so they could say they are right with their original sentiments of moral indignation and not feel bad that they have caused an honest business to suffer through bad journalism. You can only control what you create not the way others will react to it. this sort of debunks the theory of Philip K !SODA! when he said "The basic tool for the manipulation of reality is the manipulation of words. If you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use the words.".

So we get left again with people who are morally against a game, that we are backing financially, telling us how the game should be. It's censorship but it's not,it's a subject many of us have no disagreement with. ALthough there is no denying it is an expansion that could easily flop and see this product's future support get pulled, as it is sensless backing a pony in a race when it hasn't got the legs to run with.

This is my concern I feel that if those people saying that this expansion should come to light in just this way need to put up or shut up, as many of us are pulling money out of our pockets to have this product as it is. It is great that the guys have listened to our feedback and made adjustments to offer a better product to the supporters as you would expect with any business they are run in the interests of the investors.

This isn't to say that there isn't a market there but there is a way fiscally speaking to approach this subject in a more beneficial manner. Some ideas would be to introduce smaller boosters of select genres and see what the uptake is in each. I'm certain just as many people would be uninterested in extreme ganjuru girls as they would be yaoi boys or even gothic lolita sets but with smaller size it is easier to cut losses without effecting the product line's support as a whole.

Personally though my favourite option would be to see an entirely seperate product line be released later. cover the yaoi genre, as it has a whole wealth of possibilities that could be tackled outside of the confines of tentacle monsters. This isn't to say they can't cross over into soda pop's game systems either i'd certainly like to see boys added to tentacle bento and maybe even an all male crew in relic knights.

So, more importantly what are your thoughts on this?

P.s. It's punctuated coz and not just a wall of text and typos as i'm sat at my computer for once.


May 25th, 2012, 10:21 pm
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I figure if Soda Pop wanted to do the Boy's School edition, they'd do a pledge drive similar to what they're doing now to make sure they could cover costs. Would they have lower sales figures? Probably. Would they most likely be able to do a print run, no problem? Almost certainly. Pretty boys in sexy poses have been a long time favorite of female (and open minded male) anime fans for ages.

The best part about releasing it as a stand alone version/optional add in (rather than plain expansion) is that a lot of people who don't have any interest in Tentacle Bento would want to buy a game featuring beautiful, sexualized boys. If Boy's School would alienate (some) men, it is no different from the way Tentacle Bento is alienating (some) women.

Making the Boy's School edition identical to Tentacle Bento would save Soda Pop a fair amount of time/money in development and game balance. Draw new characters and repackage it, that's all. I would definitely get a copy, and a few extras as gifts, but only if the game was as pervy and degrading as the original. If Soda Pop felt they had to butch up the game so as to not offend insecure males, I would absolutely have to boycott that edition.


May 25th, 2012, 11:10 pm
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A pledge would certainly make sense yes, but they are still looking at the same costs. When Soda pop took tentacle bento to kickstarter the mechanics had already been designed they still needed the art and production costs which was $13,000 to cover a big enough production to support the copies they send as a thanks plus stock to sell on after. If we say the costs are the same that is $13k that a smaller audience needs to accomodate. Even if they do it at pledge will there be enough demand in stores for the title to make them any profit? If not this could have a knock on effect and mean all future expansions have to be started with a pledge which could put off international customers like myself, as it forces us to pay almost half the cost of the game alone in shipping which isn't so bad if you want the bonus stuff and pledge higher, if you want just the game you may as well just wait until it hits the shops and that's if it even makes it to the shops. If like other kickstarter projects the project is only viable to the backers with little or no uptake after it could mean that the product becomes one that is only available at pledge to cut on cost to loss ratio, as shops aren't going to keep buying up expansions they aren't selling if the majority of it's small audience has already bought the product direct from the source before it's released.

This has already started to happen in many other businesses as it is GAME group stores in the U.K. have gone into administration partly because of poor decision making on their part but for the most part they couldn't compete with digital download services like steam as well as online only competitors that already keep lower price points by not having as many overheads. If this were to happen it means for anyone outside of america the ONLY way to support the game aren't paying the same as americans but upto 50% more for the exact same product with no fiscal benefit from this increase passed on to Soda pop.

There are definate financial drawbacks, I really hope enough support is given to the game that these are moot points. When you look at the existing market of tentacles and pretty boys it is tiny by comparison to tentacles and girls, let alone tentacles and girls in comparison to yaoi.

To me it just seems to make sense to either do a dedicated product to this genre instead of a niche in a niche money sink or atleast test the waters with something smaller to guage uptake or come back to the idea after the title is more established and has a larger base of supporters that are able to float the project. After all it took over 600 dedicated supporters to push the investment on tentacle bento to 30k amidst all the negative response the title has created. It would be downright ignorant to think that after the protests of people saying the game is about aliens raping girls that there wouldn't be a similar backlash if not bigger about the idea of an alien posing as a school boy to capture other school boys. Have you not seen people's ridiculous reactions to the idea of gay people being allowed to marry? These same people will be crying that you are telling their little Timmy that he should rape his classmates, as ridiculous as it sounds they will do this.

It isn't as though fans wanting this can't homebrew cards with male characters, the same way that others are suggesting already for a more combat orientated version of the game.


May 26th, 2012, 12:58 am
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If anyone wants to see a "school boys vs tentacles" game. Just do it, nothings stopping them from making a new game.

Of course that assumes they're serious about it. Talk is cheap after all.

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May 26th, 2012, 1:54 am
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If it were that easy to just make a game DeliciousOrange, I'd be a published game designer by now.

Seriously though, if SPM were to do a sexy boys version of Tentacle Bento, just like Ten Thousand Buckets I would chuck as much cash at is as I could spare. I'd pimp it on Twitter. I'd pimp it on my weekly podcast. I'd pimp it simply because it'd prove to me that SPM is willing to back up their stated desire of "trying to attract more women" to the hobby.

Would it sell as well as the "standard" version of Tentacle Bento? Hard to say. Is the existing market of anime fans who would play a card game with images of sexy boys smaller than those who would play a card game with images of sexy girls? Yeah, probably. But you know what? In addition to the existing anime fans that would buy this, I see at least two potential markets for the sexy boys version that the "standard" version probably won't appeal to; girlfriends of anime fans who are tired of constantly having to look at girls, and women on the look out for "sex joke" games and gifts. I can totally see women giving a sexy boys version as a bridal shower gift, or playing it at a bachelorette party.


May 26th, 2012, 2:51 pm
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While I would fully support a male version of TB with no hesitation, I find it deliciously hypocritical that people who were up in arms about TB being sexist, objectifying women and implying rape think a male version of the exact same game is perfectly fine.


May 26th, 2012, 3:29 pm
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DeliciousOrange wrote:
If anyone wants to see a "school boys vs tentacles" game. Just do it, nothings stopping them from making a new game.

When we talk about the Boy version, we're talking about equality and balance, so if anyone but Soda Pop were to make the game, it kind of defeats the purpose of the idea (as it's been brewed on the forum - if anyone else were to make a pretty boy card game, I'd be all over it either way). It's the notion of dropping all double standards and objectifying men in exactly the same way as women that is so delightful.

Exeltus wrote:
While I would fully support a male version of TB with no hesitation, I find it deliciously hypocritical that people who were up in arms about TB being sexist, objectifying women and implying rape think a male version of the exact same game is perfectly fine.

Don't get me wrong, for all that I'm slinging words like "pervy" and "degrading" around, I am a strong supporter of Tentacle Bento. I'm a female with a pretty wicked sense of humor - I like to see things dished out evenly. It's possible to enjoy something while acknowledging the inherent flaws. I won't accept the accusation of the game's baked-in rape element, but is there a level of kinky objectification? Of course. Is that a bad thing? Not at all. If I'm not allowed to turn to anything even remotely off-color for my entertainment, it's going to get very boring in my life. I support objectification for everyone.

HyveMynd wrote:
women on the look out for "sex joke" games and gifts. I can totally see women giving a sexy boys version as a bridal shower gift, or playing it at a bachelorette party.

Absolutely. All of my old anime club girls (any of you remember Pocket Bishonen? We collected the hell out of them!) would love it, as would any woman looking to have a rowdy time. (We all love objectifying the male form, most of us are just shy about mentioning it.)


May 26th, 2012, 4:20 pm
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How does the old saying go? Two wrongs don't make a right. If people who think TB is rape, think that a male version would be fine they would be saying raping men is ok. As a man I don't like the idea of a tentacle going in me any were( although some men might). On the other hand a seduced( that what the description says the aliens are trying to do) woman might consequently allow it. Why would an alien want to seduce a woman to rape them any ways? Most movie the aliens just take by force. Getting someone alone doesn't take seduction, just a nice lie. It doesn't matter if they make a male version or not other than if they can make money from it. SPM is a company, and that is what it was made for. If they feel bad about making TB they would more than likely just cancel it, not make another game.


May 26th, 2012, 8:44 pm
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People making a big deal out of something like a card game...


May 26th, 2012, 9:29 pm
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ChipayV wrote:
As a man I don't like the idea of a tentacle going in me any were( although some men might). On the other hand a seduced( that what the description says the aliens are trying to do) woman might consequently allow it.

I can't help but feel you're not being very creative if you can't think of anything that can be done with a tentacle aside from "going in."

A seduced person is a seduced person. This is where double standards start to become a real problem with the dialogue. Of course a seduced male is going to allow their seducer to interact with them, same as a seduced female, though not necessarily in the exact same fashion.


May 27th, 2012, 5:05 am
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I thought we were trying to keep the discussion in this thread limited to the financial feasibility of SPM making a male version of Tentacle Bento? If even *I* can manage to keep my comments out of the "moral and ethical" zone, I imagine that other people can too.


May 27th, 2012, 3:34 pm
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Quote:
Ten Thousand Buckets wrote:
ChipayV wrote:
As a man I don't like the idea of a tentacle going in me any were( although some men might). On the other hand a seduced( that what the description says the aliens are trying to do) woman might consequently allow it.

I can't help but feel you're not being very creative if you can't think of anything that can be done with a tentacle aside from "going in."

A seduced person is a seduced person. This is where double standards start to become a real problem with the dialogue. Of course a seduced male is going to allow their seducer to interact with them, same as a seduced female, though not necessarily in the exact same fashion.


Even I can see tentacle is an allegory for a penis in tentacle hentai anime. That's the way it was used in Japan during their very censored era. And you will notice I didn't state all men, just myself as being one. So you missed the point do to your head being to far up some were it doesn't belong. As you stated a seduced man would allow the seducer to interact. But in this case of "tentacle" it just isn't as relevant as for a woman. That's not double standards, that's life.

HyveMynd wrote:
I thought we were trying to keep the discussion in this thread limited to the financial feasibility of SPM making a male version of Tentacle Bento? If even *I* can manage to keep my comments out of the "moral and ethical" zone, I imagine that other people can too.


That was my point, making a male version for SPM would only be realistic if they could turn a profit.


May 27th, 2012, 6:11 pm
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Denizen
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As hyvemynd said my intentions here were for a financial debate i could care less about whetther you feel people are happy to see women raped (straw dogs) but not to see men raped (mysterious skin) this is about the financial viability of taking one genre and putting it inside another then.selling it to another demographic and whether that would work if it would be monaterily detrimental to the product line and the company and whether it would be better to come back to it later or even create a dedicated product to the genre instead

there are other threads already addressing morality i understand it can.and will come into your arguements but please back them up with financial pointsout of respect to the readers that are interested in reading about tthis topic rather than.yet another rant about morals thank you


May 27th, 2012, 7:23 pm
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From the way thos is siding so far am i right in assuming that the only way anyone.wants to see a yaoi or boys only idea utilisied by soda pop is in tentacle bento as just a tacked on contrast to reassure a few people who aren't prepared to support the producrt in the first place?

Don't you think more yaoi fans are likely tto back a new dedicated game more than one that didn't really interest hem before? Are they going to continue buying from this line when it goes back to expansions with womenand no new support for the pretty boys because the one consistantly sells better than.the other? Where as a dedicated game to yaoi would no doubt offer greater product support after and could even go down the branch of a crossover between itself and tentacle bento later on


May 27th, 2012, 7:31 pm
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